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RIP David Bowie

thfcsteff said:
Back them up with 'reason'. And what does that mean exactly? How do you define 'reason'? Your viewpoints in this thread have illustrated a thorough lack of 'reason' by my definition.
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Come on Steff. You may not agree with my opinion but you can't say I haven't backed it up with reason here and in every thread.

thfcsteff said:
On another note altogether, perhaps you could put a contribution button up? No way should you have to shoulder the financial burden of all this. And if we each put in 20 quid that would surely help defray costs?
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Tried that. What tends to happen is loads of money in for a month and then nothing.

I actually don't mind paying for what we currently have. Without getting too crass and into detail about money, £80-100 in costs less £20-50 in ads per month isn't going to bankrupt me.
 
scaramanga said:
It's genuinely not trolling.

I, and plenty of others who like a lot of varied music, think Bowie was nothing more than a showman who attracted kids who felt alienated and used that 'outsider' quality to build an army of very dedicated fans. Fans who would listen to his music even if it was Glam Rock or 80s synth-pop.

I heard a good quote from him last night on the radio that pretty much summed him up for me. Please bear in mind I'm heavily paraphrasing due to my memory;
"When I was a kid I saw (a band) on TV playing saxophone. I don't know if it was the instrument or the white suits but I knew I had to do that"
For me, that isn't a real musician, that's a showman who plays instruments and sings.
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I don't think the opinion is the focus of ire here. It is that you chose to air it so egregiously. That being said, and done, it invites rebuttal. So I am happy to do my bit. Your assertion that he was a 'showman' who attracted kids that felt 'alienated' is (frankly) a phrase you could attach to 70% of the biggest and most successful musicians since the early '60s. And if that quote is your delineator as to who is or isn't a 'musician', then strike off 85% of the world's most revered (and appreciated) bands and solo performers. Being a performer, an entertainer if you will, does not preclude one from being a great musician. In Bowie's case, even if you want to ignore his Ziggy era and all the wonderful work with Mick Ronson, all the tremendous characters and stories told (at your loss), you would arrive at the Berlin-era when (along with Eno and Pop - fellow collaborators) he created such brilliant ambient soundscapes, such crisp and distilled windows into the bleakness of Berlin (and Europe's) divisions at the time and basically took the frame of Kraftwerk/Can-type sounds and crafted that into an accessible window for all to see through. You can argue the toss all you like, but the bottom lines those three albums (Low, Heroes and Lodger) proved to be enormously influential to a slew of artists, not to mention touched the emotions of millions (no 'costumes' to latch onto unless you count just having incredible style). He had a great gift for collaborating with great people who in turn helped him to be great. He took risks, big risks, motivated by a vision and deep creative hunger. As for the quote, James Brown once told me that what ignited the 'soul' in him was when a humming bird crossed his path as a child and as he jumped away from it, he avoided treading on a rattlesnake. He was clean as a whistle when we spoke (before a show). Whatever it takes to get you there my friend. Whatever it takes...
 
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Answers below.

scaramanga said:
Come on Steff. You may not agree with my opinion but you can't say I haven't backed it up with reason here and in every thread.

You have explained why you don't like him, not why he isn't worth the rapture.

Tried that. What tends to happen is loads of money in for a month and then nothing.

I actually don't mind paying for what we currently have. Without getting too crass and into detail about money, £80-100 in costs less £20-50 in ads per month isn't going to bankrupt me.

Well if you want to set up a paypal button, it wouldn't be a bad thing would it? Obviously your call, but I suspect many of us would willingly contribute.
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milo said:
fudge me. That first side of Low. If music gets better than that, I haven't found it.
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"A New Career In A New Town" is just wonderful...yeah...I have such deep memories of that album coming into our house on it's release. A special record.
 
milo said:
Out of interest @scaramanga - have you listened to many of his albums in full a few times?
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Quite a few. It was all many of my friends listened to when I was a kid.

I've tried everything up to Heroes except, of course, Ziggy and I just don't get it. I know there's an anomaly there because with all other music, when people whose opinions I respect like it, I can at least see the merit in it even if I don't enjoy it. The best I can say about Bowie's back catalogue is probably "Some catchy pop tunes".
 
thfcsteff said:
Being a performer, an entertainer if you will, does not preclude one from being a great musician.
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You're right, of course. But it also shouldn't shadow it as it does with Bowie.

thfcsteff said:
In Bowie's case, even if you want to ignore his Ziggy era and all the wonderful work with Mick Ronson, all the tremendous characters and stories told (at your loss),
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If only I could - the world would be a better place!

thfcsteff said:
you would arrive at the Berlin-era when (along with Eno and Pop - fellow collaborators) he created such brilliant ambient soundscapes, such crisp and distilled windows into the bleakness of Berlin (and Europe's) divisions at the time and basically took the frame of Kraftwerk/Can-type sounds and crafted that into an accessible window for all to see through.
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So he took some bad music and made it popular? ;)

thfcsteff said:
You can argue the toss all you like, but the bottom lines those three albums (Low, Heroes and Lodger) proved to be enormously influential to a slew of artists,
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I often wonder about his influence on other musicians. There's more than a little of the Emperor's New Clothes there for me - it's as if Bowie is one of those names that people check in interviews as shorthand for "I'm a serious artist"

thfcsteff said:
not to mention touched the emotions of millions (no 'costumes' to latch onto unless you count just having incredible style). He had a great gift for collaborating with great people who in turn helped him to be great. He took risks, big risks, motivated by a vision and deep creative hunger.
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I don't doubt the effect he's had on huge numbers of people, I just don't hold it in any value. Marilyn Manson performed a very similar trick in a contemporary way - whilst I enjoy the anguish he causes Middle America and find him very entertaining and erudite as an interviewee, it doesn't make me think he's some kind of musical genius.

It's actually not difficult to get the lonely 'outsiders' onside - they're usually looking for something to belong to in the first place.

thfcsteff said:
As for the quote, James Brown once told me that what ignited the 'soul' in him was when a humming bird crossed his path as a child and as he jumped away from it, he avoided treading on a rattlesnake. He was clean as a whistle when we spoke (before a show). Whatever it takes to get you there my friend. Whatever it takes...
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It's nice to know, at least, that he made no more sense when clean than he did when fudged up!
 
@scaramanga I do think it's worth putting a donation button up, even if it is just trickles in. I'd gladly contribute a monthly donation.

Very interesting discussion here. Alas, with any creative output, everything is based on opinions, and thus we should try to treat as such (although healthy debate is always a good thing). A couple of years ago, Scara's comments would have probably evoked a reaction similar to Mulletperm's original retort to him from me to be fair!

I think Scara has explained himself a bit more in his recent posts, and said that he can see the value in the emotions Bowie invoked in others, it's just not for him. I feel the same about modern metal music for example, I just don't get it. But I guess i'm coming to that age where I am protective of my childhood heroes and influences. That and the fact that Dave Mustaine has more talent in one of his luscious ginger locks than any contemporary frontman on the scene. In my opinion of course ;)
 
Never really listened to much of his music (a highlight when I were a lad was 'Let's Dance') however if memory serves me correctly - he was quite a good actor.

I thought he was aptly chosen to play Warhol in a movie I really liked (Basquait) - admittedly, I was an art student when I watched it (art college with Tony Hart, Tracey Emin and Ian Dury amongst it's alumni) ;).

Was interested to see he was still married to Iman too.

I found it sad news - a true icon whether people liked him or not.
 
scaramanga said:
You're right, of course. But it also shouldn't shadow it as it does with Bowie.


If only I could - the world would be a better place!


So he took some bad music and made it popular? ;)


I often wonder about his influence on other musicians. There's more than a little of the Emperor's New Clothes there for me - it's as if Bowie is one of those names that people check in interviews as shorthand for "I'm a serious artist"


I don't doubt the effect he's had on huge numbers of people, I just don't hold it in any value. Marilyn Manson performed a very similar trick in a contemporary way - whilst I enjoy the anguish he causes Middle America and find him very entertaining and erudite as an interviewee, it doesn't make me think he's some kind of musical genius.

It's actually not difficult to get the lonely 'outsiders' onside - they're usually looking for something to belong to in the first place.


It's nice to know, at least, that he made no more sense when clean than he did when fudgeed up!
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With regards to other musicians, no, the ones I know who liked him and were influenced can break down his musical talent, his exceptional ability to arrange and even produce (Lou Reed and Iggy Pop). By your stringent (and dare I say it possibly draconian?) viewpoint of image within music, bye bye Jagger, Tyler, Pop, Daltry and maybe even Plant. Should musicians only ever be as 'edgy' in their personnas as Thom Yorke?
 
Remember some of his music but it seems to have really hit the age group 5-10 years older than me. (I am 35). So much so that I will be listening to his music in my commute for a few weeks and see if it ticks for me.

Also reading @scaramanga being typically provocative in his practise of free speech. It would be so cool if he wasn't so intolerant of other people's opinions but that's what comes with elitist privilege. That mindset where being a C.U.N.T is ok because you are more intelligent and earn more.

Also how can you actually argue wether people should enjoy a certain kind of music or not. It's completely relative. People have different tastes. It's like arguing about preferences in Cheese. Everyone is different and influenced by certain things but you have to be able to tolerate others preferences unless you are a complete an utter tool.
 
LutonSpurs said:
Remember some of his music but it seems to have really hit the age group 5-10 years older than me. (I am 35). So much so that I will be listening to his music in my commute for a few weeks and see if it ticks for me.
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If you want any recommendations shout but seriously, you cannot go wrong with any of his albums from the 70's.
 
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