Spurs v Monaco OMT

[Finney Is Back]

last season Trippier looked as good as Walker

last season Wimmer looked better than Verts

our problems are deeper than selection, nobody*, is hitting their numbers

*with the exception of Lloris and the rookies

I didn't think that Wimmer ever looked better than Vertonghen.

I also don't think that Trippier has ever looked better than Walker. IMO Trippier he is a better crosser of the ball, but that is the only attribute where Trippier comes out on top against Walker. Most importantly I would say that Trippier is several levels behind Walker defensively, in terms of his positioning, how easily he is beaten one on one, the decisions he makes about which player to pick up and also in his tracking of opponents runs.

Trippier is a decent option to play in a game where the opposition will sit back and play for a nil-nil, but is not yet good enough to play in our difficult games IMO.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Every time I watch Sissoko touches the ball I laugh hysterically and shake my head in disbelief that we paid £30m for him. Surely the worst signing in history of the club?

While you are making a reasonable point I'm not sure that the Monaco v Spurs OMT is the right place to be making it? Sissoko wasn't one of the big factors in our performance last night. He was probably on the pitch for our best spell (which admittedly was a period of about a 3 out of 10 rated performance)

 

[Finney Is Back]

assuming we caught city on an off day we haven't played anyone decent in the league yet, arsenals record masks their strength of schedule

chelsea are going to be a major step up from anything we have faced this season

CL Spurs is the real Spurs I worry

We have played three quarters of the top 4 so probably a similar schedule to any other team in the league. You say that Arsenal's record masks their strength of schedule but they have played Chelsea, Liverpool, ourselves and Man Utd. At this stage of the season there will have been very few teams that have had a harder/easier schedule than others.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think after reading the above quotes from BT Sport i have to ask you if you can post a link to those quotes from Paul O'Keefe and where he got them from...they don't add up..at least i hope Paul O'Keefe has made them up/misquoted Poch..

I don't think he was specifically talking about last night (where we didn't show ANY quality, let alone 'enough' of it). I think Poch was talking about all of our performances across the whole competition).

 

[Finney Is Back]

The decision does contain some valid logic though. If Toby is not going to be fit Dier/Wimmer will get some game time together and it also protects Verts from getting injured as be honest if Rose Davies and Verts were not available who would you play left back?

I know its the 1 game at a time mantra BUT Poch definately doesn't work that way when it comes to selection.

(Verts got a bit rinsed in the 1st leg at Wembley anyway, so no guarantees he would have have made that much difference)

Hmmmm.... I am slightly worried that losing two left backs necessitates us having to play our one remaining first choice centre half at left back.

If we are struggling for a left back for Saturday I would rather we moved Wimmer across and kept Vertonghen in the centre. It will mean our attacking instincts will be a little limited on that side I know, but I would rather be as strong as possible through the centre than concentrate on the wide positions.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think 2 things are evident from our champs league campaign.

1. Poch's mandate from Levy is to prioritise re-qualification for the champs league rather perform when actually in it.

2. Wembley is going to be tough in the league next year (top 10 will be a good effort) and I fear some players simply wont fancy playing there and might even fancy champs league football elsewhere if we don't qualify. The players will already be feeling like a cog in the profitibility wheel, and some might actually want to succeed and progress in the CL.

I disagree with this whole Wembley thing.... I thought the 'home' games against Leverkusen and Monaco we a lot closer than the away games.... OK we might've scraped a 0-0 draw away at Leverkusen, but they could and should have had several goals in the second half. Whereas the Wembley game against Leverkusen was one of those tight games where the first goal was always going to be enough and win it. Against Monaco at Wembely I think they scored with their only two shots on target, whereas last night they waltzed through us time and time again.

Wembley wasn't the problem at all. Our performances were the problem.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Hmmmm.... I am slightly worried that losing two left backs necessitates us having to play our one remaining first choice centre half at left back.

If we are struggling for a left back for Saturday I would rather we moved Wimmer across and kept Vertonghen in the centre. It will mean our attacking instincts will be a little limited on that side I know, but I would rather be as strong as possible through the centre than concentrate on the wide positions.

My reply was to someone moaning about weakened teams/rotation etc and i was just pointing out some logic to why it may have happened that way. Generally, if i can see some reasonable logic to a decision, i'll give it a pass based on that.

I genuinely think Poch was thinking Verts would have to slot in at LB on saturday. However, after the combined performance of Wimmer/Dier last night he may well revert to your plan and keep Verts at CB and push Wimmer out there. (although Wimmer at LB for austria recently wasn't that pretty)

The lesson is, we do learn in defeat and the hope is that helps in the next game.

I have a feeling that Dier and Wimmer need a sensible/experinced head next to them. A bit like Dawson being twice the player with Ledley.

We could play all three, like at arsenal BUT we dont have a Left wing back.

 

[Vega]

Guardian sport ‏@guardian_sport 1m1 minute agoWalthamstow, London
Summer signings and lack of savvy: why Tottenham failed in the Champions League. By @DaveHytner

Article on the website, click it yourself, i am not your slave.

 

[Finney Is Back]

My reply was to someone moaning about weakened teams/rotation etc and i was just pointing out some logic to why it may have happened that way. Generally, if i can see some reasonable logic to a decision, i'll give it a pass based on that.

I genuinely think Poch was thinking Verts would have to slot in at LB on saturday. However, after the combined performance of Wimmer/Dier last night he may well revert to your plan and keep Verts at CB and push Wimmer out there. (although Wimmer at LB for austria recently wasn't that pretty)

The lesson is, we do learn in defeat and the hope is that helps in the next game.

I have a feeling that Dier and Wimmer need a sensible/experinced head next to them. A bit like Dawson being twice the player with Ledley.

We could play all three, like at arsenal BUT we dont have a Left wing back.

Irrespective of last night's performance I still wouldn't move Vertonghen out of the centre of defence, it weakens us in one of the most important areas of the pitch. Let's play our first choice players who are available for selection in their first choice positions and then take a look at who is available to play in the 'problem' position/positions.

I would probably just about advocate it if Alderweireld was fit, but it is crazy to play without either of your senior centre halves unless forced to by both of them being completely unavailable.

 

[Benny_Lad]

I disagree with this whole Wembley thing.... I thought the 'home' games against Leverkusen and Monaco we a lot closer than the away games.... OK we might've scraped a 0-0 draw away at Leverkusen, but they could and should have had several goals in the second half. Whereas the Wembley game against Leverkusen was one of those tight games where the first goal was always going to be enough and win it. Against Monaco at Wembely I think they scored with their only two shots on target, whereas last night they waltzed through us time and time again.

Wembley wasn't the problem at all. Our performances were the problem.

Our performances at Wembley were the problem. 0 pts from 6. I was at both games and they were painful. If you don't think we would have performed better at WHL then I have to disagree.

 

[StephenH]

I disagree with this whole Wembley thing.... I thought the 'home' games against Leverkusen and Monaco we a lot closer than the away games.... OK we might've scraped a 0-0 draw away at Leverkusen, but they could and should have had several goals in the second half. Whereas the Wembley game against Leverkusen was one of those tight games where the first goal was always going to be enough and win it. Against Monaco at Wembely I think they scored with their only two shots on target, whereas last night they waltzed through us time and time again.

Wembley wasn't the problem at all. Our performances were the problem.

I truly hope you are right......as there is little logic to it!

But I'm with @Benny_Lad

 

[We are Tottenham]

Apparently Theresa May has invited Pochettino to take part in key Brexit negotiations

Yeah...To help him from buying foreign brick players who are taking the tinkle.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Our performances at Wembley were the problem. 0 pts from 6. I was at both games and they were painful. If you don't think we would have performed better at WHL then I have to disagree.

I was also at both Wembley games, as well as the game at Leverkusen (fortunately I missed out in the ticket ballot for Monaco). Whether or not the Wembley performances were good of bad (I agree that they were bad) they were both still better performances than our equivalent ones away at Leverkusen and Monaco. By and large our performances at WHL in our games this season (minus Emirates Marketing Project) haven't necessarily been any better than the two at Wembley, the difference is simply that Monaco and Leverkusen are better sides than we have encountered in the PL. I haven't seen anything to suggest that we would've magically done better at WHL against Monaco and/or Leverkusen.

 

[Hemant]

I deliberately avoided looking at this thread after the match last night as I just could not face the anger and vitriol that I felt myself being replicated many times over. I have read through all 33 pages this morning before making what I hope is a more considered post.

Looking back to the end of last season we all knew that the team needed strengthening for a Champions League campaign and hoped that money would be made available this time. Some of you have mentioned the £70M spend on players in the Summer but in net terms due to the sales of Mason, Chadli, Fazio, Pritchard, Yedlin + Bentaleb and N'Jie on loan, in reality it is far less than that. And have we really strengthened?

Yes, Wanyama is a useful addition to the squad but this has lead to Dier being moved out of his favoured position. Janssen is showing some promise but doesn't really look like the back up to Kane we really needed, while N'Koudou just doesn't look ready yet and is no better than N'Jie. Is Sissoko really an upgrade on Mason, and who has replaced the goals scored by Chadli. In my view, with the exception of Wanyama, the summer signings are at best back ups to the squad and by selling the existing back ups have weakened the squad in both numbers and quality..

Another factor this year is that the back-ups that have remained at the club, such as Trippier, Davies and Wimmer have not played as well as last year and now look poor replacements for Walker, Rose and Vertonghen. This plus the drop in form of Eriksen, Alli and Dier have all effected the pressing style of play used last year. When we add in injuries to the A* star players of last year; Alderweireld, Kane, Lamela, Dembele and Alli this has lead to constant rotation throughout the season, changes in formation and consequently disjointed performances.

So what have we learned for the future:

1. We still have a good 14-15 players for a good starting 11 and bench if all are fit.
2. The back up players are not as good as we thought they were (i.e. Trippier, Davies, Wimmer, Onomah(?)
3. The scouting of new players and negotiations needs some improvement to avoid another Sissoko type purchase
4. Wembley seems to be an issue for the players. Do we really have to play all our league games there next year?
5. There is a feeling that some of the players ( I would suggest Dier, Alli, Eriksen, maybe Dembele) seem to think they have made it and are not playing with the same intensity as last year.
6. Harry Winks definitely looks like one for the future, but the performances of the U21 and youth teams so far this year suggest that with exception of Edwards, there are not many others likely to come through. Should we be going back to more loaning out of players to gain experience, as Walker, Rose were previously?

However, if any or all of the above were changed, there is still no excuse for resting your main players for a 'must win' Champions League game, which suggests that Poch also needs to take a hard look at his rotation policy. If Verts really was left out last night so that he can play left back against the Chavs then the rotation policy just can't be right!

Difficult to disagree with much.
I would only say that the reaction could have been different if the result/performance was better. That was a more local matter, in addition to your last paragraph, if Poch had responded tactically to support the full backs against their more adventurous and positive FBs, either by playing GKN, as their FBs would have been conscious that he has pace or by just making the wide midfielders double up with Trippier and Rose, then the result could have been different.
I accept Poch is trying different systems and to out-think the opposition but he was found wanting yesterday in his in-match analysis. The worry is that he is a bit slow in responding.
Less rotation and some appropriate purchases i.e goal scoring wide players, more pace and a goal scorer to cover Kane in the Jan window will make us more competitive. Are we willing to spend for top 'quality'?
That, as always, remains to be seen.

 

[Hemant]

The decision does contain some valid logic though. If Toby is not going to be fit Dier/Wimmer will get some game time together and it also protects Verts from getting injured as be honest if Rose Davies and Verts were not available who would you play left back?

I know its the 1 game at a time mantra BUT Poch definitely doesn't work that way when it comes to selection.

(Verts got a bit rinsed in the 1st leg at Wembley anyway, so no guarantees he would have have made that much difference)

Verts got sold down the river by lamela in the first game.
You can play Trippier at LB, in a one off game. Note Nyholm has been doing for WBA. No big deal. Walker, Verts and Rose were crucial yesterday as Monaco have pace and these guys have experience of playing against them. Not good to expose Wimmer and Dier as a new partnership, for the sake of a bit of practice.

 

[Hemant]

Hmmmm.... I am slightly worried that losing two left backs necessitates us having to play our one remaining first choice centre half at left back.

If we are struggling for a left back for Saturday I would rather we moved Wimmer across and kept Vertonghen in the centre. It will mean our attacking instincts will be a little limited on that side I know, but I would rather be as strong as possible through the centre than concentrate on the wide positions.

You obviously missed Wimmer at LB for Austria against the ROI, then.

 

[Finney Is Back]

You obviously missed Wimmer at LB for Austria against the ROI, then.

I am not suggesting that Wimmer is a better left back than Vertonghen. I think Vertonghen is twice the left back Wimmer is. It is just that Vertonghen is also twice the centre half that Wimmer is. More importantly though is the fact that Vertonghen is the only 'senior' centre half available at the moment. With that in mind I would rather keep Vertonghen at centre half to try to ensure that we are as strong as possible in a key area of the pitch and be a little weaker in the full back position. My thoughts are that it is a little easier to cover for weaknesses out wide than it is covering for weaknesses through the centre

 

[Hemant]

I am not suggesting that Wimmer is a better left back than Vertonghen. I think Vertonghen is twice the left back Wimmer is. It is just that Vertonghen is also twice the centre half that Wimmer is. More importantly though is the fact that Vertonghen is the only 'senior' centre half available at the moment. With that in mind I would rather keep Vertonghen at centre half to try to ensure that we are as strong as possible in a key area of the pitch and be a little weaker in the full back position. My thoughts are that it is a little easier to cover for weaknesses out wide than it is covering for weaknesses through the centre

I understand your reasoning.
However, Moses would murder Wimmer and that would spread panic.
I would prefer to see Trippier at LB or even Conor Ogilvie, who has potential. Kyle Walker-Peters in my opinion is not effective at LB.

Water under the bridge but here Bentaleb's flexibility to cover at LB would also have been an option.

 

[Rorschach]

Standard Sport ‏@standardsport 4m4 minutes ago
'Vertonghen deserved to be left out against Monaco - he's lost his way without Alderweireld'

WTF? If anyone had to play centre half with Dier i would say they would look shaky. TBF i thought Vertonghen had been outstanding of late.

Whose quote is that? It is wrong.

Vertonghen has been playing well. Dier has not. He looks like he forgotten how to play the position IMO. Wimmer and Dier were GHod awful last night.

 

[StephenH]

Dier is getting little bit of flack ATM.
The whole squad is a buggers muddle ATM
Things may just need time to settle and to heal some injuries.