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Eric Dier

scaramanga said:
His reading of the game, both defensively and going forward.

Most midfielders have one or the other, he has both to a fairly high level. Plenty of midfielders will be better going forward, plenty will be better defensively, but he can play both to a high level.

I don't want an out and out defensive midfielder in there, I think it's needlessly damaging to our style of play. An out and out attacking midfielder would obviously be suicide. Dier is a good fit for both.
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Yeah I can see that, I just think technically and physically he's pretty average, and I worry that limits his potential.

I also worry that constantly changing position harms his development, though I'm sure many will disagree (including him, judging by what he says!)
 
Jurgen the German said:
Scara, I can’t figure out if you’re overrating Dier or underrating the other players who play a similar role to him. Wanyama is not only a better defensive midfielder but his passing is miles better, his pass to Eriksen just before his goal was class, can’t recall Dier playing a pass of that level in his career.

Winks is also on another level to Dier going forward despite not being as good in the DM role.
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Neither, you're just massively overeating Wanyama's play on the ball because he's technically good (can place a pass) but not what I consider a good passer (someone who understands what the tempo/direction of play should be and when, someone who can judge whether the risk is better than the simple pass, etc).
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Wanyama creates his goal with a brilliant pass to eriksen

Dier again showed his huge value to us by dropping into centre back and replacing Sanchez who was awful

Both players have roles to play
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This. There are VERY few players who can play CB and CM. When he joined, Wanyama was mentioned as a serious contender to fill in at CB sometimes, and I think he may have played a few minutes there... but none of our players can do this other than Dier. We never play Toby/Verts in midfield and we never play Dembele/Wanyama at centre back. Dier's versatility contributed to us winning the game today.
 
Bullet said:
This. There are VERY few players who can play CB and CM. When he joined, Wanyama was mentioned as a serious contender to fill in at CB sometimes, and I think he may have played a few minutes there... but none of our players can do this other than Dier. We never play Toby/Verts in midfield and we never play Dembele/Wanyama at centre back. Dier's versatility contributed to us winning the game today.
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Exactly
He didn’t have a great game but his flexibility is worth it’s weight in gold
 
billyiddo said:
You're clutching at straws there
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I disagree. For me, the measure of a good passer is in the head, not in whether they can make the ball go in the direction they choose.

Obviously that's less the case at the extreme ends of the scale - at both the Hoddle end and the Sissoko end. But within the range that 99% of footballers inhabit, the difference is all in the head. Dier has more of that in an attacking sense than Wanyama.
 
scaramanga said:
I disagree. For me, the measure of a good passer is in the head, not in whether they can make the ball go in the direction they choose.

Obviously that's less the case at the extreme ends of the scale - at both the Hoddle end and the Sissoko end. But within the range that 99% of footballers inhabit, the difference is all in the head. Dier has more of that in an attacking sense than Wanyama.
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I think Dier has an immense ability at knowing when to press, when to drop, when to hold, how to keep shape etc etc. There was a brilliant video doing the rounds showing the difference between Dier playing the pivot in his first midfield game for us and Mason doing it in his last game for us at OT in that role. The difference was stark and Dier showed his calibre there.

But could you explain more as to how Dier gets ahead of Wanyama in an attacking, passing sense? Because I saw Wanyama come on today and twice play a great mid to long range pass to set our players away (one to Eriksen which lead to his goal). I just can’t make out what you are saying about how this compares to Dier’s ability going forward. Dier maybe has a more consistent long range. Maybe he has more of an ability to drill incisive passes into the feet of the forwards. But Wanyama can turn out of trouble better than Dier can and definitely has range as he showed today.
 
scaramanga said:
I disagree. For me, the measure of a good passer is in the head, not in whether they can make the ball go in the direction they choose.

Obviously that's less the case at the extreme ends of the scale - at both the Hoddle end and the Sissoko end. But within the range that 99% of footballers inhabit, the difference is all in the head. Dier has more of that in an attacking sense than Wanyama.
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Agree with the bolded part of your post but i just cant agree that Dier has shown himself any smarter with the ball than Wanyama has.
 
Bullet said:
This. There are VERY few players who can play CB and CM. When he joined, Wanyama was mentioned as a serious contender to fill in at CB sometimes, and I think he may have played a few minutes there... but none of our players can do this other than Dier. We never play Toby/Verts in midfield and we never play Dembele/Wanyama at centre back. Dier's versatility contributed to us winning the game today.
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;););)
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I think Dier has an immense ability at knowing when to press, when to drop, when to hold, how to keep shape etc etc. There was a brilliant video doing the rounds showing the difference between Dier playing the pivot in his first midfield game for us and Mason doing it in his last game for us at OT in that role. The difference was stark and Dier showed his calibre there.

But could you explain more as to how Dier gets ahead of Wanyama in an attacking, passing sense? Because I saw Wanyama come on today and twice play a great mid to long range pass to set our players away (one to Eriksen which lead to his goal). I just can’t make out what you are saying about how this compares to Dier’s ability going forward. Dier maybe has a more consistent long range. Maybe he has more of an ability to drill incisive passes into the feet of the forwards. But Wanyama can turn out of trouble better than Dier can and definitely has range as he showed today.
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The difference today was space.

Wanyama was pushing forward against an exhausted midfield, Dier was being heavily pressed by two or three players at any given time.

Again, it's not about he ability to ping a 30 or 40 yard pass, all professional footballers (with a few marked exceptions) can nowadays. It's about knowing when that's the most beneficial pass and when it's better to turn and give it 10 yards sideways to pull the opposition out of space.

Dier isn't our best at that - Winks is much better, and Wanyama bests him in that regard defensively. But for much of the time, Dier is the best fit.
 
That's amiguous enough that you can just carry on saying Dier is a better passer than Wanyama without having to show why- it's total nonsense - knows what's the most beneficial pass and when to turn and pass ten yards, shame he doesn't know when not to fudge up and gift the opponent chance after chance
 
billyiddo said:
That's amiguous enough that you can just carry on saying Dier is a better passer than Wanyama without having to show why- it's total nonsense - knows what's the most beneficial pass and when to turn and pass ten yards, shame he doesn't know when not to fudge up and gift the opponent chance after chance
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I know, I can see it when I'm watching. That's the advantage we have from the camera angle or from the from a higher tier seat.
 
Bullet said:
Usually you ask for statistical evidence and say that humans are very poor judges when watching live.
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Actually it's people's memories I don't rate - we change our memories to suit our prejudices.

I will admit to doubting the live judgement of people who know nothing about football though.
 
scaramanga said:
Actually it's people's memories I don't rate - we change our memories to suit our prejudices.

I will admit to doubting the live judgement of people who know nothing about football though.
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Do you have plenty of examples of Wanyama consistently playing the wrong pass for the situation? This is the first I’ve read of this particularly criticism of him.
 
Was asked to play on the right hand side of a 442 diamond today and was unsurprisingly shocking.


The first half it was

------Dembele
Dier------------Alli
------Eriksen

Second half it was

------Dembele
Dier-----------Eriksen
--------Alli


Still have no idea what that was all about. Surely Dier should have been the one playing deep.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Do you have plenty of examples of Wanyama consistently playing the wrong pass for the situation? This is the first I’ve read of this particularly criticism of him.
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It's not about the obviously wrong pass, I'd be criticising Wanyama if he kept doing that, and I'm not.

It's about how often he makes the pass that isn't the obvious one, one that takes more defenders out of the game than the others, or the one that slows us down when we look like we've overcommitted.

Wanyama almost never makes a pass that's a bad enough choice to make you ask WTF? But when was the last time Wanyama made a pass that the defence didn't expect? I can't think of one in all the time he's been with us.
 
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