Contingency planning : When Ange is sacked, who should replace him?

[thfcsteff]

The flaw in all these arguments is the budget - both transfer and salary budgets.

You actually can't even compare different manager's results unless they're playing under very similar conditions. There is a massive gulf between Ange and Frank in that most critical area.

I remember heading to the stadium and watching Spurs vs Brentford. We won. All I remember was Toney being very good and never wanting my team to play like they did. I'm assuming Frank would argue like Big Sam did, that if he was at Real Madrid he'd play the RM way.

I can't see Ange going anywhere to be fair. He will be made to have the tough conversation about the league finish though. He will need to have some good answers and reassurances why next season should be different, especially based on the past and summer budgets in play. Ange "in or out" is clearly no longer just a football decision.

A fair point.
I think that should also be applied in the other direction, when comparing us to others in the traditional 'race for CL football', especially on the wages count.

Do you think Thomas Frank would stand a better chance elevating us next season than Ange Postecoglu?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A fair point.
I think that should also be applied in the other direction, when comparing us to others in the traditional 'race for CL football', especially on the wages count.

Do you think Thomas Frank would stand a better chance elevating us next season than Ange Postecoglu?

Possibly
I really like Frank’s adaptability
He also has a similar approach on the human side to Ange

 

[Bedfordspurs]

If I was do describe the wrong kind of manager for us I’d start of with writing off anyone with an ego and also a head that looks like a Lego figure
I wouldn’t want a guy who is fresh out of the playing side too

 

[thfcsteff]

Possibly
I really like Frank’s adaptability
He also has a similar approach on the human side to Ange

He is a very likeable and media savvy person it seems. I hear very good things about him from a couple of friends who work at Brentford (no, I won't be asking ITK type quesions LOL), and he has proven adaptable. Of all the candidates in the 'Silva, Iraola, DeZerbi' realm, I think he is by far the best fit for our club.

Personally, I don't think he is any more likely to succeed than a reinvigorated Ange with a bought-in squad.

The single biggest worry I have about Ange staying is the sideshow; it feels like the scrutiny he'd be under from all areas would be utterly relentless, and unprecedented for a European trophy winning manager. It's why despite what I'd like to happen, I still feel we will move on. IF that happens, we'll never know if it was a mistake or not, and I won't waste endless energy debating it. I will say I think IF we were to take the plunge, the potential upside is massive, whilst accepting that the potential downside is very significant.

 

[thfcsteff]

If I was do describe the wrong kind of manager for us I’d start of with writing off anyone with an ego and also a head that looks like a Lego figure
I wouldn’t want a guy who is fresh out of the playing side too

I agree.

Again, if I resign myself to the conceopt of the club doing what I don't want them to, then Frank would be an OK choice, with the caveat that I would be fully prepared to accept that we probably would not emulate any trophy success this coming season, that this squad will shift around a bit, and that we'd probably not make the top 5. In a sense, I'd buy in on having to give him a season to bed in; no-one walks into our club and instantly gets it done, the anomaly being Conte I suppose (who sadly was also his name!)...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

He is a very likeable and media savvy person it seems. I hear very good things about him from a couple of friends who work at Brentford (no, I won't be asking ITK type quesions LOL), and he has proven adaptable. Of all the candidates in the 'Silva, Iraola, DeZerbi' realm, I think he is by far the best fit for our club.

Personally, I don't think he is any more likely to succeed than a reinvigorated Ange with a bought-in squad.

The single biggest worry I have about Ange staying is the sideshow; it feels like the scrutiny he'd be under from all areas would be utterly relentless, and unprecedented for a European trophy winning manager. It's why despite what I'd like to happen, I still feel we will move on. IF that happens, we'll never know if it was a mistake or not, and I won't waste endless energy debating it. I will say I think IF we were to take the plunge, the potential upside is massive, whilst accepting that the potential downside is very significant.

The only reason I don’t want him to stay is as you say, that sideshow, that vibe being played by the arseholes
Whoever starts in the summer needs more quantity in the squad with experience
It was a bold, ballsy, wrong move in the summer (in hindsight). We can’t have another rebuilding season and need to make brave calls with exits too

 

[thfcsteff]

The only reason I don’t want him to stay is as you say, that sideshow, that vibe being played by the arseholes
Whoever starts in the summer needs more quantity in the squad with experience
It was a bold, ballsy, wrong move in the summer (in hindsight). We can’t have another rebuilding season and need to make brave calls with exits too

Agreed!

 

[Raziel]

He is a very likeable and media savvy person it seems. I hear very good things about him from a couple of friends who work at Brentford (no, I won't be asking ITK type quesions LOL), and he has proven adaptable. Of all the candidates in the 'Silva, Iraola, DeZerbi' realm, I think he is by far the best fit for our club.

Personally, I don't think he is any more likely to succeed than a reinvigorated Ange with a bought-in squad.

The single biggest worry I have about Ange staying is the sideshow; it feels like the scrutiny he'd be under from all areas would be utterly relentless, and unprecedented for a European trophy winning manager. It's why despite what I'd like to happen, I still feel we will move on. IF that happens, we'll never know if it was a mistake or not, and I won't waste endless energy debating it. I will say I think IF we were to take the plunge, the potential upside is massive, whilst accepting that the potential downside is very significant.

I think the learning of Ange is a continuation of what we already know

- BMJ, Harry, Poch, Ange, Spurs as a club, and our players across multiple squads seem to respond better to motivator type managers than strict disciplinary types. Do any of the replacement candidates fall into that grouping? not sure

Ange (if he stays) will be in the same place as Amorim at United, bad results in first 10 games next season equal instant disaster.

 

[Gazza]

We were 12th before the AZ game. We weren’t good before that, but you don’t have to look very hard to work out why.

It’s only since the Europa League knockout games started that our position in the table really nosedived.

From last season?

 

[Finney Is Back]

Weren't Brentford one of the very few sides we managed to beat home and away this season?

 

[thfcsteff]

Weren't Brentford one of the very few sides we managed to beat home and away this season?

Indeed...

...the truth (IMO - I feel I have to now put that in as a caveat) is, no candidate I have seen mentioned has any more liklihood of success with this specific group of players than Ange. They will not have the X factor buy-in and belief, they will not have done the journey this group have done over the last season, they will have to build trust and confidence in said-appointee's own skillset, and the truth is we would likely be entering a season of 'stability' without any specific growth (IMO anyway). Of all the average names thrown around, Frank would probably be the best suited to who we are and what we have, but this club extracts minerals from people's pores that no other does; it is unique in at once giving the stage for glory and simultaneously kicking the stool out from under the feet before at the last second putting it quietly back. I absolutely believe that no other manager could've either done what Postecoglu did last season, or would've had the balls to try. Objectively, Mourinho got closest on the 'march' to that Carabou Cup Final, but he failed to keep the dressing room onside in spectacular fashion, so even he couldn't. Ditto Conte.

Inzaghi is an exciting name to throw out, but truthfully, why would anyone expect him to instantly succeed here? I am genuinely asking people; this is not a wind up?

As I've said several times, I deeply fear that the volume of the circus around him has place Ange in a near-impossible position. I would be prepared to endure it for him to have the chance to show what might happen if you give a manager who helped win a first major trophy in 41 years the chance to work with their young charges. I still fear we will not go there...

 

[Muttley]

Agreed!

To answer your above question, Frank is currently way more qualified to manage Spurs than Ange in my opinion. Ange hasn't yet proven to me that he can even operate at the PL level, let alone the top end of the league. There has never been a time when we have shown any consistency under Ange. Not even 3-5 consecutive games. Frank has done that consistently for years in the PL.

If I was do describe the wrong kind of manager for us I’d start of with writing off anyone with an ego and also a head that looks like a Lego figure
I wouldn’t want a guy who is fresh out of the playing side too

As the other part of my answer, it's what Bedford said. We actually did hire someone with a massive ego and it is that ego that mostly creates the sideshow. It is not healthy for our club in my opinion. Frank doesn't have this baggage.

Here's my own conflict.....

School of thought one
Backing Ange to start next season. I'm still feeling that the decision to retain or fire Ange could be bigger than just a football decision in the way that the Spurs leadership think about it. Because the EL win was a huge momentum shifter for our club, it is likely that Munn will keep giving Ange the tools to succeed (Munn's mantra) and judge him again in about November. That will be his last chance saloon. If he fails, then the club would have kept their integrity with the fans intact. However if he succeeds the club look good anyway.

School of thought two
If Ange does get released next week I will also have massive respect for the Spurs leadership team. It would mean that they have cut through the nonsense and made an objective football decision about their underperforming manager. It means they have the ability to take data points from over 100 games and not settle for that level. It makes winning Europa League table stakes and that feels good to me to have that winning, big club mentality. I would admire them for being that strong.

I cannot call which way the coin will land as there is no history with this new leadership team to see patterns.

 

[thfcsteff]

To answer your above question, Frank is currently way more qualified to manage Spurs than Ange in my opinion. Ange hasn't yet proven to me that he can even operate at the PL level, let alone the top end of the league. There has never been a time when we have shown any consistency under Ange. Not even 3-5 consecutive games. Frank has done that consistently for years in the PL.



As the other part of my answer, it's what Bedford said. We actually did hire someone with a massive ego and it is that ego that mostly creates the sideshow. It is not healthy for our club in my opinion. Frank doesn't have this baggage.

I've chosen to just answer the above...

Frank has, indeed, shown consistency. The sort of consistency he has shown would get him sacked here in two years/have fans on his back within 6 months IMO.

As for the ego comment, I disagree. He is confident and his own man. He is probably stubborn -I'd accept that- and has strong self-belief, which I suppose could be translated as 'ego'- but the fact is week in week out this guy has had to defend himself against everything from his style of play to the injuries to where his career has taken place to his nationality. I think I'd be prickly! As you yourself said, most of the questions he receives week in week out are macaronic repeat click baiters from poor, lazy journalists (I am well placed to make that comment BTW)...

IF we do what I deep down feel we will, I'd accept Frank as the best of the options being discussed, bnut expect little of him beyond appeasing people. I also believe that it would only be a matter of time before he, too, got dragged across the coals, unless Lange is still going to be here and offer him a little more protection.

 

[Muttley]

Indeed...

...the truth (IMO - I feel I have to now put that in as a caveat) is, no candidate I have seen mentioned has any more liklihood of success with this specific group of players than Ange. They will not have the X factor buy-in and belief, they will not have done the journey this group have done over the last season, they will have to build trust and confidence in said-appointee's own skillset, and the truth is we would likely be entering a season of 'stability' without any specific growth (IMO anyway). Of all the average names thrown around, Frank would probably be the best suited to who we are and what we have, but this club extracts minerals from people's pores that no other does; it is unique in at once giving the stage for glory and simultaneously kicking the stool out from under the feet before at the last second putting it quietly back. I absolutely believe that no other manager could've either done what Postecoglu did last season, or would've had the balls to try. Objectively, Mourinho got closest on the 'march' to that Carabou Cup Final, but he failed to keep the dressing room onside in spectacular fashion, so even he couldn't. Ditto Conte.

Inzaghi is an exciting name to throw out, but truthfully, why would anyone expect him to instantly succeed here? I am genuinely asking people; this is not a wind up?

As I've said several times, I deeply fear that the volume of the circus around him has place Ange in a near-impossible position. I would be prepared to endure it for him to have the chance to show what might happen if you give a manager who helped win a first major trophy in 41 years the chance to work with their young charges. I still fear we will not go there...

What you write is totally fair but misses a really important ingredient. The missing piece for me is the deep football conversation about Ange's tactical ability. It sounds really clear when you talk about the psychology, the 2 year chronology and the experience. When we talk about pure football matters, that is where I cannot get behind Ange until he proves me wrong. I'd love him to as well. He hasn't shown anywhere near enough the tactical acumen across over 100 games. Controversially, that even includes the final in my case.

It's a dilemma we find ourselves in.

 

[thfcsteff]

What you write is totally fair but misses a really important ingredient. The missing piece for me is the deep football conversation about Ange's tactical ability. It sounds really clear when you talk about the psychology, the 2 year chronology and the experience. When we talk about pure football matters, that is where I cannot get behind Ange until he proves me wrong. I'd love him to as well. He hasn't shown anywhere near enough the tactical acumen across over 100 games. Controversially, that even includes the final in my case.

It's a dilemma we find ourselves in.

It is the fundamental piece which I think we have to trust the football heirarchy at our club to have made central to whatever decision they arrive/have already arrived, at. And that conversation has to include mitigators like injuries and squad balance. To be clear, I am saying they need to be part of the conversation. For all anyone knows, we might well be getting to a place where he will now balance his inverted FB bomb-ons. These are discussions and analysis that (IMO) go without saying should be part of any conclusion...

...where your trust truely needs to sit is with the club heirarchy. Does it? Do you trust them to make the right decision for the club based on them (hopefully) considering all angles? It's a question I also ask myself, because personal emotiuons will influence the answer and that might not be right?

 

[Muttley]

Frank has, indeed, shown consistency. The sort of consistency he has shown would get him sacked here in two years/have fans on his back within 6 months IMO.

And this is where we cannot really know based on our earlier conversation. Give Frank Ange's set of cards and what would happen, and vice versa, The impossible question as they've never walked in each other's shoes.

 

[Muttley]

It is the fundamental piece which I think we have to trust the football heirarchy at our club to have made central to whatever decision they arrive/have already arrived, at. And that conversation has to include mitigators like injuries and squad balance. To be clear, I am saying they need to be part of the conversation. For all anyone knows, we might well be getting to a place where he will now balance his inverted FB bomb-ons. These are discussions and analysis that (IMO) go without saying should be part of any conclusion...

...where your trust truely needs to sit is with the club heirarchy. Does it? Do you trust them to make the right decision for the club based on them (hopefully) considering all angles? It's a question I also ask myself, because personal emotiuons will influence the answer and that might not be right?

And because they're a new leadership group, I don't know the answer to your question. I've spoken lots about Levy not having enough football DNA in such circumstances. You can add Cullen, Caplehorn, Collecott etc to that list. That raises optimism that we're in a better place then previously because of the newbies. I have way more faith that Paratici and Lange have football DNA. Less sure about Munn, but I like his leadership principles about creating conditions. That just leaves Vinai who has the reputation but is barely started. I genuinely don't even know who is making the decision.

That's why it's a dilemma. I'm thinking Ange doesn't have favour with all of them though. There will be a you and I on that leadership group. You can guarantee it.

 

[Finney Is Back]

To answer your above question, Frank is currently way more qualified to manage Spurs than Ange in my opinion. Ange hasn't yet proven to me that he can even operate at the PL level, let alone the top end of the league. There has never been a time when we have shown any consistency under Ange. Not even 3-5 consecutive games. Frank has done that consistently for years in the PL.



As the other part of my answer, it's what Bedford said. We actually did hire someone with a massive ego and it is that ego that mostly creates the sideshow. It is not healthy for our club in my opinion. Frank doesn't have this baggage.

Here's my own conflict.....

School of thought one
Backing Ange to start next season. I'm still feeling that the decision to retain or fire Ange could be bigger than just a football decision in the way that the Spurs leadership think about it. Because the EL win was a huge momentum shifter for our club, it is likely that Munn will keep giving Ange the tools to succeed (Munn's mantra) and judge him again in about November. That will be his last chance saloon. If he fails, then the club would have kept their integrity with the fans intact. However if he succeeds the club look good anyway.

School of thought two
If Ange does get released next week I will also have massive respect for the Spurs leadership team. It would mean that they have cut through the nonsense and made an objective football decision about their underperforming manager. It means they have the ability to take data points from over 100 games and not settle for that level. It makes winning Europa League table stakes and that feels good to me to have that winning, big club mentality. I would admire them for being that strong.

I cannot call which way the coin will land as there is no history with this new leadership team to see patterns.

Weird considering he had us finishing 5th in his first season?!?

 

[Raziel]

It is the fundamental piece which I think we have to trust the football heirarchy at our club to have made central to whatever decision they arrive/have already arrived, at. And that conversation has to include mitigators like injuries and squad balance. To be clear, I am saying they need to be part of the conversation. For all anyone knows, we might well be getting to a place where he will now balance his inverted FB bomb-ons. These are discussions and analysis that (IMO) go without saying should be part of any conclusion...

...where your trust truely needs to sit is with the club heirarchy. Does it? Do you trust them to make the right decision for the club based on them (hopefully) considering all angles? It's a question I also ask myself, because personal emotiuons will influence the answer and that might not be right?

The club leadership is there to make hard/tough decisions, either choice they will get brick for.

- The easiest answer is to keep Ange, it's the path of least resistance and has the most obvious stick (EL win)
- The ruthless choice is to remove him

ETH is one of many examples where a club failed to act on a paper over the results outcome in a season.

It's really funny because I suspect they made a decisions already, and I suspect they will get beat with all the old sticks, fire a manager who brought success, too trigger happy, clueless as this guy did the impossible .. narrative will go on.

From my perspective, if we want to act like a big club, the answer is simple, replace him. Be good, be polite, be thankful but move on to someone who can get more out of the squad consistently, someone who can manage multiple fronts at same time, someone who is tactically more flexible (to get best of individual players)

 

[thfcsteff]

And because they're a new leadership group, I don't know the answer to your question. I've spoken lots about Levy not having enough football DNA in such circumstances. You can add Cullen, Caplehorn, Collecott etc to that list. That raises optimism that we're in a better place then previously because of the newbies. I have way more faith that Paratici and Lange have football DNA. Less sure about Munn, but I like his leadership principles about creating conditions. That just leaves Vinai who has the reputation but is barely started. I genuinely don't even know who is making the decision.

That's why it's a dilemma. I'm thinking Ange doesn't have favour with all of them though. There will be a you and I on that leadership group. You can guarantee it.

Trust me mate, we've all discussed that a lot over the years. Happy to continue this portion of our chat in PM...