Contingency planning : When Ange is sacked, who should replace him?

[thfcsteff]

The club leadership is there to make hard/tough decisions, either choice they will get brick for.

Absoluytely agreed.

- The easiest answer is to keep Ange, it's the path of least resistance and has the most obvious stick (EL win)
- The ruthless choice is to remove him

Debatable IMO. In fact, I have a suspicion that the club are taking the easisest possible decision right now by letting the 'good vibes' factor die-down so as they can get a clearer ramp to do what they might have been planning to do for sometime. In many ways, sticking with him would (IMO) be tougher due to the sheer levels of scrutiny he would be under/we would be under as a club. Someone like (for example) Frank would get at the very least 6-8 months grace period (nothing wrong with that obviously)...

ETH is one of many examples where a club failed to act on a paper over the results outcome in a season.

I personally think there are a few very significant differences between the ETH/Man U situation and us.

It's really funny because I suspect they made a decisions already, and I suspect they will get beat with all the old sticks, fire a manager who brought success, too trigger happy, clueless as this guy did the impossible .. narrative will go on.

As you said, it is a thankless task. Ange upped the ante during the celebrations. I don't blame him. It appears they've been silent/leaving him in a vacuum. Who knows? Maybe he shooed them away and said he wanted to fully focus, we just don't know. I think you're right, narratives will go on either way regardless. Personally, once the decision is publicly stated, I will move forwards and on, support whoever the manager is, and support the club/team. I hope -if he is not our manager- Ange's critics can in future focus on his positives and remember him as one of the very few managers in our history -alongside Sir Bill and Burky- to win a European trophy, without constantly reminding us of the league stats last season.

From my perspective, if we want to act like a big club, the answer is simple, replace him. Be good, be polite, be thankful but move on to someone who can get more out of the squad consistently, someone who can manage multiple fronts at same time, someone who is tactically more flexible (to get best of individual players)

I can't agree or disagree until I know who that person is in your view. I would say that until late January we were doping OK on multiple fronts, but those injuries were unforgiving. Still, it's an academic conversation now. We're at the business end of things!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

Just wanted to say...IMO, the conversation about Ange/managers today has been excellent, with plenty of great viewpoints being shared from all perspectives. Personally, I appreciate it...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The club leadership is there to make hard/tough decisions, either choice they will get brick for.

- The easiest answer is to keep Ange, it's the path of least resistance and has the most obvious stick (EL win)
- The ruthless choice is to remove him

ETH is one of many examples where a club failed to act on a paper over the results outcome in a season.

It's really funny because I suspect they made a decisions already, and I suspect they will get beat with all the old sticks, fire a manager who brought success, too trigger happy, clueless as this guy did the impossible .. narrative will go on.

From my perspective, if we want to act like a big club, the answer is simple, replace him. Be good, be polite, be thankful but move on to someone who can get more out of the squad consistently, someone who can manage multiple fronts at same time, someone who is tactically more flexible (to get best of individual players)

Arsenal with arteta is another where a club didn’t act. The tried but didn’t actually make the move

I do agree the decision is already made. I’m less confident now of what that is than I was a week ago

 

[Lemonade Money]

The club leadership is there to make hard/tough decisions, either choice they will get brick for.

- The easiest answer is to keep Ange, it's the path of least resistance and has the most obvious stick (EL win)
- The ruthless choice is to remove him

ETH is one of many examples where a club failed to act on a paper over the results outcome in a season.

It's really funny because I suspect they made a decisions already, and I suspect they will get beat with all the old sticks, fire a manager who brought success, too trigger happy, clueless as this guy did the impossible .. narrative will go on.

From my perspective, if we want to act like a big club, the answer is simple, replace him. Be good, be polite, be thankful but move on to someone who can get more out of the squad consistently, someone who can manage multiple fronts at same time, someone who is tactically more flexible (to get best of individual players)

Big clubs stick with their manager a lot longer, and a lot more patiently than we do. I'd would argue the hardest choice is to keep Ange and hold our nerve. The easiest is rinse and repeat.

Anyway, let's hope the new guy can actually win something, has the players 100% behind him, is given time through injuries and bringing through youth buys that are not first team mature, has a history of being a serial winner, someone we need to stick with through the turbulent times if we want to build something with strong foundations, oh wait... Nah, we are entitled to have a manager who comes in and bosses it from the off, winning left, right and centre. Over to you [insert new shiny manager here].

 

[Muttley]

Just wanted to say...IMO, the conversation about Ange/managers today has been excellent, with plenty of great viewpoints being shared from all perspectives. Personally, I appreciate it...

Yeah, agree. It's been fantastic dialogue. Your contribution as great as ever.

I'm hoping it shows that we can maintain that walking on air feeling about being EL champions whilst continuing the secondary Spurs conversations alongside.

Sat in the sauna today with a Brentford season ticket holder who takes her 2 teenage boys to Brentford. There was a cricket mad QPR fan and an Arsenal fan who was originally a Leeds Utd fan as a boy. Something about being EL champions made that experience so much better than normal. I even told the 3 of them that they should expect us to be CL champions next season

 

[Muttley]

Big clubs stick with their manager a lot longer, and a lot more patiently than we do. I'd would argue the hardest choice is to keep Ange and hold our nerve. The easiest is rinse and repeat.

Anyway, let's hope the new guy can actually win something, has the players 100% behind him, is given time through injuries and bringing through youth buys that are not first team mature, has a history of being a serial winner, someone we need to stick with through the turbulent times if we want to build something with strong foundations, oh wait... Nah, we are entitled to have a manager who comes in and bosses it from the off, winning left, right and centre. Over to you [insert new shiny manager here].

As alternative thinking, who would we want as a critical cog on our coaching staff if Mason does fly the nest? I have a load of respect for Ryan and hope he does try that next step if that is what he wants. He's done his time in the other roles at this stage.

I do feel that Ange's replacement hire for Ryan could be immense if we get the right fit. PL experience, tactically astute and the ability to communicate with the players on behalf of Ange. Also, important to be a cog in the machine rather than replace Matt Wells who is the assistant to Ange. I'm thinking an older, calm head would be great. Just can't think of anyone immediately.

 

[DTA]

Arsenal with arteta is another where a club didn’t act. The tried but didn’t actually make the move

I do agree the decision is already made. I’m less confident now of what that is than I was a week ago

A close friend of mine is an Arsenal fan. He also knows football pretty well, been involved at various non pro levels.

After the first conte season, he was adamant that he wanted Arteta to stay which I found amusing. He then broke down various statistics which showed that Arteta’s teams had improved pretty much across the board (apart from results). And because of this he believed if given time he would get them competitive… which as much as it pains me to admit, he has.

Now I will ask you and any one else that is adamantly Ange in (not saying you are) what statistics have improved under Ange over his tenure?

Edit: because the obvious “trophies” answer was given… I thought I didn’t need to spell it out but obviously I do… I’m talking in game statistics over his tenure.

And just to be double clear I Think Ange has earned a conversation with the Europa League win, so I’m not advocating sacking him without that.

But statistically progression should be part of that analysis

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A close friend of mine is an Arsenal fan. He also knows football pretty well, been involved at various non pro levels.

After the first conte season, he was adamant that he wanted Arteta to stay which I found amusing. He then broke down various statistics which showed that Arteta’s teams had improved pretty much across the board (apart from results). And because of this he believed if given time he would get them competitive… which as much as it pains me to admit, he has.

Now I will ask you and any one else that is adamantly Ange in (not saying you are) what statistics have improved under Ange over his tenure?

Trophies
It’s that simple
And I know they were looking at other manager at the end of his first full season including a favourite ex spurs manager
Edu kept him in a job
I’d love to know what the metrics were compared to the investment made

 

[Raziel]

Big clubs stick with their manager a lot longer, and a lot more patiently than we do. I'd would argue the hardest choice is to keep Ange and hold our nerve. The easiest is rinse and repeat.

Anyway, let's hope the new guy can actually win something, has the players 100% behind him, is given time through injuries and bringing through youth buys that are not first team mature, has a history of being a serial winner, someone we need to stick with through the turbulent times if we want to build something with strong foundations, oh wait... Nah, we are entitled to have a manager who comes in and bosses it from the off, winning left, right and centre. Over to you [insert new shiny manager here].

Really? Madrid, Chelsea, Bayern, Barcelona? what is the list of big clubs sticking with managers who are not delivering in year? Arsenal is probably proving exactly the opposite right now.

- SAF & Wenger created a strange association in UK re length of time in role equal success
- Truth is, success gives you length of time in role, see above, also see Harry & Poch, they got time, because they were delivering.

 

[DTA]

Trophies

Yeah I know that was going to be said. But let’s have a proper conversation about it.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah I know that was going to be said. But let’s have a proper conversation about it.

See above
Football is about winning
Clubs always have that hanging over their head
I even heard someone say why solace exist not that long ago (because they hadn’t won things)
If a manager delivers a trophy and that club hasn’t won won in an age… that a success
If his peers haven’t delivered a trophy and haven’t even gone up a league place, that’s a decline

 

[DTA]

See above
Football is about winning
Clubs always have that hanging over their head
I even heard someone say why solace exist not that long ago (because they hadn’t won things)
If a manager delivers a trophy and that club hasn’t won won in an age… that a success
If his peers haven’t delivered a trophy and haven’t even gone up a league place, that’s a decline

You are smarter than that. I’m over the moon about our Europa win. And I’m not even totally Ange out despite us losing 22 games and finishing 17th.

What I’m asking for is statistics pointing at progression in the league despite results.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You are smarter than that. I’m over the moon about our Europa win. And I’m not even totally Ange out despite us losing 22 games and finishing 17th.

What I’m asking for is statistics pointing at progression in the league despite results.

That only stat that matters is trophies
We had a seasons where we conceded the least, scored the most and won…. Nothing
I’ve seen us have WC players… truly elite and win … nothing
My nephew has studied football analytics and was at a presentation recently at England HQ up in Staffordshire. The panel included Southgate, the ex Chelsea coach who also went to Madrid (can’t remember. His name) and the England ladies coach
They got asked what is the one key measure in football and Southgate isn’t said.. winning. Trophies are from winning. That’s why it is the measure
We’re obsessed in modern football by very bit of data we can absorb but they mean fudge all if they aren’t tangible
I heard on the radio yesterday say that Arsenal last season would have beaten this years Liverpool to the title and he argued data. I mean that for me shows the issue

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Really? Madrid, Chelsea, Bayern, Barcelona? what is the list of big clubs sticking with managers who are not delivering in year? Arsenal is probably proving exactly the opposite right now.

- SAF & Wenger created a strange association in UK re length of time in role equal success
- Truth is, success gives you length of time in role, see above, also see Harry & Poch, they got time, because they were delivering.

Agreed
I think we should let him go myself
But it’s a huge decision and gamble
I see Chelsea keeping a manager who their fans hate
I see Arsenal keeping a manger who has creates a cult
I see United keeping a guy who literally need a whole new team
Football decisions are rarely logical

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Honestly @DTA i reckon there are a decent chunk of us on here (yourself may be included too) who could probably out some metrics out there on how much money and time we have spent watching Tottenham chase that elusive trophy
IMO, it’s the only metric that matters

 

[thfcsteff]

You are smarter than that. I’m over the moon about our Europa win. And I’m not even totally Ange out despite us losing 22 games and finishing 17th.

What I’m asking for is statistics pointing at progression in the league despite results.

Therein lies the rub and difficulty of this decision.
The hard stats show he should be on his way already.
The context stats added to those hard stats will introduce various factors such as how many games we've won when certain team combinations and line-ups have been fit and available.
The deeper context stats will analyse injuries and their impact.

What no stats can measure are intangibles such as -
How club decisions might have affected the season we had.
Was the manager stubboron or did he -with all the information available- make a brilliant call to achieve two goals with the path of least resistance.
Have the players and management learnt from the bad stuff of this season?
Have the club learnt from the bad side of this season?
Does winning a first major trophy in 41 years give us sudden intangible factors and strengths which will see this collective grow quickly together from this point on?

There has been plenty of comparison to Man U keeping Ten Haag on after he won the FA Cup. The differences are many, but most notably, he did not have full squad buy in or a solid structure around him.
I'd say an interesting one would be to look at when Man U stuck with Ferguson after a few years of average when he won the cup in 1990; it was a moment where many thought he'd be sacked at the time. Again, I appreciate that no examples have binary parity, that's impossible. But it's fun to throw another equation into the discussion-mix.

 

[Baleforce]

Therein lies the rub and difficulty of this decision.
The hard stats show he should be on his way already.
The context stats added to those hard stats will introduce various factors such as how many games we've won when certain team combinations and line-ups have been fit and available.
The deeper context stats will analyse injuries and their impact.

What no stats can measure are intangibles such as -
How club decisions might have affected the season we had.
Was the manager stubboron or did he -with all the information available- make a brilliant call to achieve two goals with the path of least resistance.
Have the players and management learnt from the bad stuff of this season?
Have the club learnt from the bad side of this season?
Does winning a first major trophy in 41 years give us sudden intangible factors and strengths which will see this collective grow quickly together from this point on?

There has been plenty of comparison to Man U keeping Ten Haag on after he won the FA Cup. The differences are many, but most notably, he did not have full squad buy in or a solid structure around him.
I'd say an interesting one would be to look at when Man U stuck with Ferguson after a few years of average when he won the cup in 1990; it was a moment where many thought he'd be sacked at the time. Again, I appreciate that no examples have binary parity, that's impossible. But it's fun to throw another equation into the discussion-mix.

I think it's a dangerous assumption to assume he does have "full squad buy in".

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Therein lies the rub and difficulty of this decision.
The hard stats show he should be on his way already.
The context stats added to those hard stats will introduce various factors such as how many games we've won when certain team combinations and line-ups have been fit and available.
The deeper context stats will analyse injuries and their impact.

What no stats can measure are intangibles such as -
How club decisions might have affected the season we had.
Was the manager stubboron or did he -with all the information available- make a brilliant call to achieve two goals with the path of least resistance.
Have the players and management learnt from the bad stuff of this season?
Have the club learnt from the bad side of this season?
Does winning a first major trophy in 41 years give us sudden intangible factors and strengths which will see this collective grow quickly together from this point on?

There has been plenty of comparison to Man U keeping Ten Haag on after he won the FA Cup. The differences are many, but most notably, he did not have full squad buy in or a solid structure around him.
I'd say an interesting one would be to look at when Man U stuck with Ferguson after a few years of average when he won the cup in 1990; it was a moment where many thought he'd be sacked at the time. Again, I appreciate that no examples have binary parity, that's impossible. But it's fun to throw another equation into the discussion-mix.

I’d also push the stats when the first 11 is available if people really want to go that way. I personally wouldnt but I do know that was the magic arsenal argument they used when he finished 8th again and took them out of Europe for the first time 25 years

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think it's a dangerous assumption to assume he does have "full squad buy in".

Impossible to know
But we can evidentially see and read quotes from many players showing their personal buy in unless they are lying

 

[carl]

If you were the owner of a company, let's say an investment firm and you had a stock brocker that over 2 years kept making bad investment after bad investment and was losing money but decided to use the last of his allocation on 1 big gamble, would you be happy to keep him on even if the gamble paid off?

Maybe because I'm a business owner I see things slightly different and try to take emotion out of decision making.

I really don't envy Levy at the moment but I wonder how much of an influence our new CEO will have on whether to keep Ange or not? When does he officially start?