• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Ange departs

Ange departs.

  • In

    Votes: 81 42.6%
  • Out

    Votes: 109 57.4%

  • Total voters
    190
Why has any glory been tarnished or taken away? Strange.

Things are not mutually exclusive, you can be appreciative of Ange winning a trophy, and understand that a lot of his play was flawed. Did you watch our games critically last season? We weren't a good side. Even with fit players.

Why was a decision to pay off the manager to the tine of £4m, and then spend more on a new man, 'all about money'? Why are we a laughing stock? I think fans who can't see the wood for the tress are more worthy of ridicule. Most non-Spurs fans wanted us to keep Ange too - because they knew we'd be hamstrung with him in charge. You want the club to keep a dead man walking, invest in transfers and preseason, blindly thinking we'll address the myriad tactical limitations when Ange didn't for 2 years? With the upshot that we'd likely sack him in the middle of next season because the same weaknesses would abound and preserve. And you think this would be a good way to run the club? Do nothing rather than be positive, thankful, and forward looking?
Why was it all about money? Because we have signaled by sacking a trophy winning manager that the board favours cash over trophies.

Why are we a laughing stock? Because the last time a manager won a trophy and was sacked straight after was....so long ago nobody can remember because it's not what you do. Our decision to remove the manager has angered players, a large proportion of the supporters and confounded pundits, commentators and football purists up and down the land.

It's very possible that 10 games into next season we would have been saying bye to Ange. However it's just as possible, given what Nono experienced that whoever comes in next could suffer that fate. The difference is that Ange had the goodwill of the players, the continuity and the achievement of the EL under his belt to enable him to make a good run at it.

I don't debate that our league performance was dire last year, but I also know it could have improved under Ange.
 
I think it's quite simple. If you think stats/analysis are a thing in football (rhetorical question).....that's why Ange was relieved of his duties.
No manager should survive if you lose as many games as he did
But
If a manager wins a major trophy and achieves the goal of CL qualification, that guy has succeeded
It’s bother either or apart from the call to sack him
 
Why was it all about money? Because we have signaled by sacking a trophy winning manager that the board favours cash over trophies.

Why are we a laughing stock? Because the last time a manager won a trophy and was sacked straight after was....so long ago nobody can remember because it's not what you do. Our decision to remove the manager has angered players, a large proportion of the supporters and confounded pundits, commentators and football purists up and down the land.

It's very possible that 10 games into next season we would have been saying bye to Ange. However it's just as possible, given what Nono experienced that whoever comes in next could suffer that fate. The difference is that Ange had the goodwill of the players, the continuity and the achievement of the EL under his belt to enable him to make a good run at it.

I don't debate that our league performance was dire last year, but I also know it could have improved under Ange.

We don't remember the last time a manager was sacked sfter winning a trophy?
2 points from 8 games not jolt your memory?
Redknapp came in and we played the best football i've ever seen at spurs. Got cl. We never won a trophy under him though.
I doubt anyone would say we should have kept ramos.
 
He did make adjustments, we played very differently in the latter half of the season compared to the first half.

Something on Ange that I don’t see get discussed much (and that I think does him a disservice) is this idea that he should have adjusted more. But that is to misunderstand what exactly was ever going to make him successful to the extent that he wanted to be.

The thing with Ange, is that he has such unwavering belief in a system and principles of play, that he was never going to compromise completely on them. Nick Montgomery talks about this in an interview with an Aussie paper last week. He did adjust, but he could have adjusted more at the risk to the long term belief in the system and principles that he was building around, and that he hoped to get back to properly in his third season.

It’s like this: his system requires immense bravery and immense belief in it to carry off. The benefit is once everyone is locked in with it, it can lead to outsized results way beyond expectations. It requires doing something that no other team would be willing to dare to do, in order to get greater results than they thought possible. This is why players joined after speaking to him, and this is why they stayed behind him. It was belief in a bigger idea and something they were working towards.

If he compromised on that even more, it calls into question everything he was building towards. He absolutely did adjust the system for most of the last season, but as Montgomery says they didn’t fully adjust the principles. The reason being if you abandon them to be more pragmatic, just to fight your way back up to maybe 12th position, then it’s very difficult to go back there. You can’t ask the players to be braver than they’ve ever been as a non negotiable, and you can’t build a spirit around this idea that you are brave, if you are shown you are willing to abandon those principles yourself.

It’s this third prong that I don’t see talked about enough in discussion about our league form. It’s injuries, which lead to a focus on the Europa as the only way we can win something out of the season. But then it’s also caring about the long term plan he has with the team, and not wanting to abandon that. I have no doubt he could have been more pragmatic, and won a few more league games, but getting the players to adhere to extreme bravery in the next season would have then been the question. ETH abandoned a lot of his principles to be more pragmatic with United, and they looked bereft of identity. I see a lot of people saying Frank’s mix of ‘nice football most of the time, but pragmatic when he needs to be’ is the perfect mix for us at Spurs, as if it’s some cheat code that Ange or anyone else hasn’t thought of. It’s not a cheat code, it’s just another coaching choice with its own trade offs. We’ll have plenty of games where we don’t break teams down, but we’ll almost certainly be back in the top six at a minimum.

I was massively in favour of Ange because I liked his idea. That we were going to stand toe to toe with the biggest teams and try to win. That once he could have a settled side, with a deep enough experienced squad that knew how to play this way, we could really push beyond our place in the food chain in the same way we did with Poch. But we gave up on that. And it seems to me because either ENIC didn’t understand what Ange’s goal was with his decision making. Or that he was too much of a risk taker for them. They want the near certainty of top six money, not the riskier decisions that might ultimately lead us to getting more than that.
 
Last edited:
Just wonder what sort of input our new CEO and board member Vinai Venkatesham had in all this , appointed to the board on the 2nd I believe and within 6 days two managers gone.
General consensus among the ST's where I sit was that winning the Europa was not going to save Ange.
 
No manager should survive if you lose as many games as he did
But
If a manager wins a major trophy and achieves the goal of CL qualification, that guy has succeeded
It’s bother either or apart from the call to sack him
Can't really read your last sentence.

I've said....it gave him a chance of staying.
Other stats/analysis still outweighed that.
Either outcome was feasible/understandable...so i react to it with that mindset.
 
Very much agree! But I think Frank might be better for us than a lot of people think, because he actually has the philosophy that we need. Thing is, this has to be implemented at EVERY level of the club. Every staff member, player. The whole club need to change their thinking from being result driven, to performance and development driven. Frank is like that. He just wants to get better. Make each player better, and make the team better.

If he (or someone else in the top level management) could drive this, we will make big progress. But it's not done in one or two seasons. It's a fundamental change that takes time.
Do not disagree at all with you, sadly we keep sacking managers and until we start a plan and keep to it for more then a season or two the chances are we will keep going around and around in circles.
 
Youre probably not privy to my perspective, but I've got a 20 plus year association with this site, and have acted on a number of occasions as a link between the club and GG - less so these days since Paul (Scaramanga) took the site on, but still I've spoken to the club, mainly Donna Cullen for years. This has in the main made me someone who falls on the side of the owners, rather than being part of the levy out crowd, but increasingly in the last few years I've been becoming less supportive. The way Poch was treated, the ridiculous furloughing of staff during COVID, the dismissal of mourinho a week before a final, the stupidity in hiring Conte, who was never ever going to succeed without a bottomless pit of money, the way Nuno was brought in and cast aside, and the farce of going through 5 candidates til we got to Ange, all point to someone who might be great at business, but bizarly after 25 years still doesn't get the sport.

I tolerated all of that, but right now the anger I feel towards our chairman for sacking the guy who just won our first trophy in 17 years in a season where 85% of the first team squad has been injured for more than 2 months, most at the same time, isn't dissipating.

Ange did what Jose, Conte and Poch failed to do. What Hoddle and Redknapp and Villas Boas failed to achieve. And Daniel booted him to the curb, in doing so making us the laughing stock of football, and the pin up boys for the money over success modern ethos.


I am about glory and we had it and it's been tarnished and taken away from us.

Agree with this 100%.

I am reading on the last couple of pages that the ENIC plan is to ‘sustainably challenge for the biggest titles’ but I just don’t buy it. I am also reading that we are the equivalent of Sevilla to a Barca, and I agree with that. My question is as a fan why you would be happy with it.

I used to be one of the people that would say ‘how can you not appreciate what Levy has done to make us part of the big 6, building our infrastructure, doing it all sustainably, best chairman in the league!’ but time has moved on, and I think it’s clear that they do not have the ambition to actually go further than having us consistently in the top six. They like the predictable prize money, the European revenue, and the associated prestige which boosts the value of their investment.

I am not convinced though that they want us to win titles. Quite simply it means investing in players in the way that Liverpool, City and arguably Chelsea do. We might get the odd season where one of them has a shocking season and they fall off from that, but in reality we need probably 5 teams to be way below expectations for us to have a chance at actually winning the league.

What will change things is actually going out of our way to land first choice targets that the manager wants in order to really push on. Sign at the start of the window, pay top wages. Don’t wait until the end because we want to wait for everyone else to make their signings and then move in. That’s the behaviour of a club that is not actually at the top of the football hierarchy.

I get all the reasons why we do everything we do under ENIC, their approach, their structure etc etc. but we’ve had a few managers now who if backed would have pushed us on. That is clearly not what they want. Hiring Frank makes this clear too. And again I go back to the point that, as a fan, why would you be happy with it? In the same way Levy probably looks at managers as good for a certain moment in time but right to move on when they do, I think we’re there now with them. They did great at establishing us in the big 6, with amazing infrastructure, and now need to hand the reigns over to another group who will actually have us challenging at the top consistently.
 
Agree with this 100%.

I am reading on the last couple of pages that the ENIC plan is to ‘sustainably challenge for the biggest titles’ but I just don’t buy it. I am also reading that we are the equivalent of Sevilla to a Barca, and I agree with that. My question is as a fan why you would be happy with it.

I used to be one of the people that would say ‘how can you not appreciate what Levy has done to make us part of the big 6, building our infrastructure, doing it all sustainably, best chairman in the league!’ but time has moved on, and I think it’s clear that they do not have the ambition to actually go further than having us consistently in the top six. They like the predictable prize money, the European revenue, and the associated prestige which boosts the value of their investment.

I am not convinced though that they want us to win titles. Quite simply it means investing in players in the way that Liverpool, City and arguably Chelsea do. We might get the odd season where one of them has a shocking season and they fall off from that, but in reality we need probably 5 teams to be way below expectations for us to have a chance at actually winning the league.

What will change things is actually going out of our way to land first choice targets that the manager wants in order to really push on. Sign at the start of the window, pay top wages. Don’t wait until the end because we want to wait for everyone else to make their signings and then move in. That’s the behaviour of a club that is not actually at the top of the football hierarchy.

I get all the reasons why we do everything we do under ENIC, their approach, their structure etc etc. but we’ve had a few managers now who if backed would have pushed us on. That is clearly not what they want. Hiring Frank makes this clear too. And again I go back to the point that, as a fan, why would you be happy with it? In the same way Levy probably looks at managers as good for a certain moment in time but right to move on when they do, I think we’re there now with them. They did great at establishing us in the big 6, with amazing infrastructure, and now need to hand the reigns over to another group who will actually have us challenging at the top consistently.
Don't agree with all of this but great to have you posting on here again @BrainOfLevy . Perhaps now you're back it might spur Nayim to come back so we can once again have pages of discussion :smile:. All meant in good spirit mate.
 
So you're not bored of it?...so sick of it?

'Big clubs doing their thing' has had a mixed bag of outcomes if your honest?

The long-term goal is to close the gap, just from a potential to compete consistently pov? ie financially. We'll hit our limit on that due to DL not having any personal wealth and JL not interested (well, only once he helped). As I eluded to in my previous post, this is where we are. I'm not going to be down about that 2 weeks after winning a trophy.

We are equivalent to A.Madrid, Valencia, Seville to Real and Barca. Dortmund, Leverkusen, Frankfurt to Bayern. Lazio, Roma, Napoli to Milan, Juve.

Sometimes those 'challenger' teams come out on top when things align but more often they don't,and just as often have a cycle where they're struggling.
Off the field we are trying to raise the floor , so we can compete every season and avoid a snowball effect of struggling. And to raise the ceiling is harder in this league than any of those I mention.

Tbh I feel what I've written is pointless at this moment in time.
All the teams you named are in other leagues, it's not the same as the PL where even if say three big teams have an off season (which is in itself unlikely) there's still potentially another three plus teams to get through and produce beyond 'challenging'.

TBH I agree with you about where we are and what we are trying to do - I just don't think it's going to prove anymore fruitful in terms of trophies under these owners. I'm ok with it, and all we can do is try but I think a lot of our fan base has higher expectations than me and it all becomes a bit toxic if not delivered sooner rather than later and we enter this never ending death spiral....
 
Agree with this 100%.

I am reading on the last couple of pages that the ENIC plan is to ‘sustainably challenge for the biggest titles’ but I just don’t buy it. I am also reading that we are the equivalent of Sevilla to a Barca, and I agree with that. My question is as a fan why you would be happy with it.

I used to be one of the people that would say ‘how can you not appreciate what Levy has done to make us part of the big 6, building our infrastructure, doing it all sustainably, best chairman in the league!’ but time has moved on, and I think it’s clear that they do not have the ambition to actually go further than having us consistently in the top six. They like the predictable prize money, the European revenue, and the associated prestige which boosts the value of their investment.

I am not convinced though that they want us to win titles. Quite simply it means investing in players in the way that Liverpool, City and arguably Chelsea do. We might get the odd season where one of them has a shocking season and they fall off from that, but in reality we need probably 5 teams to be way below expectations for us to have a chance at actually winning the league.

What will change things is actually going out of our way to land first choice targets that the manager wants in order to really push on. Sign at the start of the window, pay top wages. Don’t wait until the end because we want to wait for everyone else to make their signings and then move in. That’s the behaviour of a club that is not actually at the top of the football hierarchy.

I get all the reasons why we do everything we do under ENIC, their approach, their structure etc etc. but we’ve had a few managers now who if backed would have pushed us on. That is clearly not what they want. Hiring Frank makes this clear too. And again I go back to the point that, as a fan, why would you be happy with it? In the same way Levy probably looks at managers as good for a certain moment in time but right to move on when they do, I think we’re there now with them. They did great at establishing us in the big 6, with amazing infrastructure, and now need to hand the reigns over to another group who will actually have us challenging at the top consistently.
Welcome back, this is a blast from the past :D....
 
Back