Ange departs

[LutonSpurs]

If a fan thinks it's the right decision it doesn't mean they have committed some sort of treason to the cup win lol. It really is not that binary.

 

[Muttley]

Paratici has been involved for several seasons, officially/unofficially and Lange is going in to a third season - seems pretty stable. Regardless as with managers & players people in these roles can and do come and go.

That's the piece I don't get. We're not unstable at all at the leadership layer. Levy made a conscious choice to hand over the running of football operations to another person. That ops guy is Munn and he has 2 years tenure as well as Lange. Levy then made a subsequent decision to bifurcate the Chairman and CEO roles and gas brought in Vinai. Fabio has now been involved for something like 4 years. Cullen has left after something like 20-30 years which was her own choice.

This new leadership group feels exciting to me. It's a platform for the club and we already have a trophy under their leadership.

 

[harr1984]

It's pretty obvious our place in football.
Our history and finances give you a good idea of where that is.

We only shift that with more money or a generational crop of players (maybe had part that with Sonny and Kane,) or/and a standout manager (like Poch). You try and manifest these things by design but it usually comes with a big dose of luck.

You sound depressed/deflated about it? Our current identity has been pretty much the same for the last 20 years. Maybe you're bored of it?. But there are good moments....one was just over 2 weeks ago...don't let that fade out so quickly.

Not bored of it no. My expectations are lower than a lot on here, hence why I was ok with giving Ange the start of this season unless someone (almost) definitely better comes in. In two seasons he's got us a 5th place finish and a European trophy supplemented with European football. Yes this league season was a poor one, with some caveats around it but poor regardless but we still won something. I'm willing to bet that Frank won't achieve that in his two seasons and at best we will be back to floating around the top 6 'challenging' which many will be ok with short term before the thirst to push on and the pressure again begins.

Just feels like it's back to square one, and until we are willing to be on someone long term will forever be on this ridiculous cycle of managers. We like to label Chelsea a basket club, but we are literally a budget version of them without the silverware....

 

[Muttley]

Not bored of it no. My expectations are lower than a lot on here, hence why I was ok with giving Ange the start of this season unless someone (almost) definitely better comes in. In two seasons he's got us a 5th place finish and a European trophy supplemented with European football. Yes this league season was a poor one, with some caveats around it but poor regardless but we still won something. I'm willing to be that Frank won't achieve that in his two seasons and at best we will be back to floating around the top 6 'challenging' which many will be ok with short term before the thirst to push on and the pressure again begins.

Just feels like it's back to square one, and until we are willing to be on someone long term will forever be on this ridiculous cycle of managers. We like to label Chelsea a basket club, but we are literally a budget version of them without the silverware....

I actually don't agree. This a multi-year journey. We thought we were starting it with the new stadium in 2019, but then COVID scuppered that for a couple of years. Then we really got going with the new revenue streams including the F1 karting and more and more events at the stadium. We definitely haven't plateau'd in our new model yet. The first team manager is clearly a critical component of the new model but it shouldn't be perceived as a restart just because we've have to switch the names. It's like saying Ange's squad was started 2 seasons ago when in reality it was 3 or 4 years ago. The EL line-up and subs bench showed the multi-year work that has happened.

For me, this is a continuum. We need to keep fine tuning all the components. No major surgery required.

I'm still in a much better place than those few years after Poch left.

 

[harr1984]

I actually don't agree. This a multi-year journey. We thought we were starting it with the new stadium in 2019, but then COVID scuppered that for a couple of years. Then we really got going with the new revenue streams including the F1 karting and more and more events at the stadium. We definitely haven't plateau'd in our new model yet. The first team manager is clearly a critical component of the new model but it shouldn't be perceived as a restart just because we've have to switch the names. It's like saying Ange's squad was started 2 seasons ago when in reality it was 3 or 4 years ago. The EL line-up and subs bench showed the multi-year work that has happened.

For me, this is a continuum. We need to keep fine tuning all the components. No major surgery required.

I'm still in a much better place than those few years after Poch left.

It all sounds great, lets see - I feel like I've been hearing the 'we are going to reap the benefits any day now due to the stadium' for GHod knows how long. Meanwhile the big clubs keep on doing their thing and we forever play catch up season on season maintaining 'everything is in place' to push on.

I'm happy to wait, I don't think our squad it as good as some like to think anyway so don't have massive expectations, just not convinced it will ever happen without a change in owners.....

 

[Mcfee]

Yeah I mean obviously messiah was an exaggeration. So what actually is the plan? After all these years I'm confused as to what it is. We are never winning the league without spending big, we can hoover plenty of young talents but will always be superseded by the teams who actually buy the top players for now.

So what is it? Frank is ok if he gets us top 6 or something this season, then season 2 has to qualify for CL otherwise we start again? This club still doesn't really have an identity for me....

To be champions of England and Europe. And to do it in a sustainable way so that once achieved we don’t crash and burn. To realistically challenge year in year out for the biggest prizes and accumulate trophies. Not to be dependent on one manager (a messiah) or one generation of players.
That’s my view of the plan anyway and I’m confident that we’ll achieve it - barring some unforeseen external disaster or a seismic mistake at the highest level (Hiring the wrong team manager at a particular point in time wouldn’t derail the overall goal).

 

[Baleforce]

Yeah, I think it’s obvious, the plan is sustainable success.

 

[Muttley]

It all sounds great, lets see - I feel like I've been hearing the 'we are going to reap the benefits any day now due to the stadium' for GHod knows how long. Meanwhile the big clubs keep on doing their thing and we forever play catch up season on season maintaining 'everything is in place' to push on.

I'm happy to wait, I don't think our squad it as good as some like to think anyway so don't have massive expectations, just not convinced it will ever happen without a change in owners.....

Do you think it is perhaps that some fans got the wrong picture in their heads of what the new stadium would bring to our club? Is it the case that some thought it meant we would be at the head of the financial top table and be spending like the billionaires? For me, that was never going to be the case. It just moved our annual financial baseline up to a new level and created much greater opportunities for us as a club.

 

[Jamesfo]

I can't help but think if we'd got Slott when we went in for him, we'd be sacking him now.... Ferguson would've been sacked by Levy before any success too.

Have high hopes for new CEO. Hopefully he can step up and be the leader we need at board level. Rather than some shadowy cross between a Bond Villian and a Dark Lord of the Sith.

We are where are. Let's hope we get a Poch type that builds a team rather than Conte who literally seemed to set us back years.

 

[harr1984]

Do you think it is perhaps that some fans got the wrong picture in their heads of what the new stadium would bring to our club? Is it the case that some thought it meant we would be at the head of the financial top table and be spending like the billionaires? For me, that was never going to be the case. It just moved our annual financial baseline up to a new level and created much greater opportunities for us as a club.

Yeah perhaps (not me, I had no idea what to expect beyond the aesthetics tbh). I agree in the background things look much better. I just hope Frank or whoever the new coach is gets some proper time to make his mark. Browsing Brentford forums they all love him, but note it took a while for him to make his mark originally - and neither our fans or Levy have great patience. In Franks tenure at Brentford (just under 7 seasons) we've had 7 managers, unless we change this way of doing things we aren't going to sustain anything no matter how good things are behind the scenes....

 

[Baleforce]

I think we have changed, Ange could reasonably have been sacked a year ago, he got a whole extra year, in which we were consistently garbage, and still got to finish the season.

It’s all well and good saying managers need time, but managers need to show the potential for achievement.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

If a fan thinks it's the right decision it doesn't mean they have committed some sort of treason to the cup win lol. It really is not that binary.

I think it was the right decision
I just don’t like it

 

[Roland Beurre]

Nothing new or of insight in here, but just in case anyone is interested…

Bilbao was a glorious blip for Spurs – and that’s why Levy had to sack Postecoglou | Jonathan Wilson

Tottenham chair was not blinded by silverware and decided finishing fourth-bottom of the Premier League was not enough

www.theguardian.com

Nothing new or insightful for us but I think it accurately encapsulates all of the (often tedious) arguments we have made here that are pro/anti-Ange. It's almost as if he checked out a few Spurs message boards before writing it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Youre probably not privy to my perspective, but I've got a 20 plus year association with this site, and have acted on a number of occasions as a link between the club and GG - less so these days since Paul (Scaramanga) took the site on, but still I've spoken to the club, mainly Donna Cullen for years. This has in the main made me someone who falls on the side of the owners, rather than being part of the levy out crowd, but increasingly in the last few years I've been becoming less supportive. The way Poch was treated, the ridiculous furloughing of staff during COVID, the dismissal of mourinho a week before a final, the stupidity in hiring Conte, who was never ever going to succeed without a bottomless pit of money, the way Nuno was brought in and cast aside, and the farce of going through 5 candidates til we got to Ange, all point to someone who might be great at business, but bizarly after 25 years still doesn't get the sport.

I tolerated all of that, but right now the anger I feel towards our chairman for sacking the guy who just won our first trophy in 17 years in a season where 85% of the first team squad has been injured for more than 2 months, most at the same time, isn't dissipating.

Ange did what Jose, Conte and Poch failed to do. What Hoddle and Redknapp and Villas Boas failed to achieve. And Daniel booted him to the curb, in doing so making us the laughing stock of football, and the pin up boys for the money over success modern ethos.


I am about glory and we had it and it's been tarnished and taken away from us.

Why has any glory been tarnished or taken away? Strange.

Things are not mutually exclusive, you can be appreciative of Ange winning a trophy, and understand that a lot of his play was flawed. Did you watch our games critically last season? We weren't a good side. Even with fit players.

Why was a decision to pay off the manager to the tine of £4m, and then spend more on a new man, 'all about money'? Why are we a laughing stock? I think fans who can't see the wood for the tress are more worthy of ridicule. Most non-Spurs fans wanted us to keep Ange too - because they knew we'd be hamstrung with him in charge. You want the club to keep a dead man walking, invest in transfers and preseason, blindly thinking we'll address the myriad tactical limitations when Ange didn't for 2 years? With the upshot that we'd likely sack him in the middle of next season because the same weaknesses would abound and preserve. And you think this would be a good way to run the club? Do nothing rather than be positive, thankful, and forward looking?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Still not sure why furloughing staff during Covid, riled some folks. It was perfectly legal and above board, no reason not to, and i think many football clubs did it.............

Like the staff were upset to be paid whilst not working? Yes Levy out for having people off being paid. Evil bastard!

 

[SpurMeUp]

Exactly this.
I totally appreciate what Levy has done for this club, but we should be treating people better.
There's the multitude of great players who never got the send off they deserved.
Then the managers who weren't given a chance:
Jol, tell him if he doesn't get CL he's out, don't sack him at half time.
Redknapp, tell him he needs to make a public apology for dropping his knickers to the England job, or he's out.
Poch, tell him to step away after the CL, and come back refreshed, when we've got money to spend.
Mourinho, tell him he needs to win the final to keep his job.
Nuno, good GHod we messed him around.
Ange, can't see any reason why we couldn't say, if you're not within touching distance of top 5 by Xmas, you're out. What a way to treat someone who did the thing everyone wanted, including Levy.

So easy in hindsight. Idk if you were saying the same at the time. Levy has been trigger happy, no doubt. He has acted like a fan at times, and not shown patience that managers need. But I don't think that is case now. We've seen the pallet of Postecoglou's tatics, and they are limited. To the extent that he himself was playing a different way to his 'only way of playing'. Which credit to Ange got us a trophy. It wasn't pretty. It wasn't expansive football. It wasn't a great version of defensive football either as we still gave away plenty of openings. But it got it done against some - lets just say average sides.

Ange is perfectly happy with £4m severance, and not having to try and reinvent his tactics that were not working. You would have given him 50m odd to invest over the summer, and not let a new manager have a preseason to get the side into a better shape and drilled? Instead likely wrote off next season as we had to scramble around for a manager at Christmas? That kind of leadership I would find hard to defend. There are no negatives now with Ange. He leaves a Hero. We now reset and get better. I don't get the negativity personally.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

It all sounds great, lets see - I feel like I've been hearing the 'we are going to reap the benefits any day now due to the stadium' for GHod knows how long. Meanwhile the big clubs keep on doing their thing and we forever play catch up season on season maintaining 'everything is in place' to push on.

I'm happy to wait, I don't think our squad it as good as some like to think anyway so don't have massive expectations, just not convinced it will ever happen without a change in owners.....

So you're not bored of it?...so sick of it?

'Big clubs doing their thing' has had a mixed bag of outcomes if your honest?

The long-term goal is to close the gap, just from a potential to compete consistently pov? ie financially. We'll hit our limit on that due to DL not having any personal wealth and JL not interested (well, only once he helped). As I eluded to in my previous post, this is where we are. I'm not going to be down about that 2 weeks after winning a trophy.

We are equivalent to A.Madrid, Valencia, Seville to Real and Barca. Dortmund, Leverkusen, Frankfurt to Bayern. Lazio, Roma, Napoli to Milan, Juve.

Sometimes those 'challenger' teams come out on top when things align but more often they don't,and just as often have a cycle where they're struggling.
Off the field we are trying to raise the floor , so we can compete every season and avoid a snowball effect of struggling. And to raise the ceiling is harder in this league than any of those I mention.

Tbh I feel what I've written is pointless at this moment in time.

 

[Lilbaz]

It all sounds great, lets see - I feel like I've been hearing the 'we are going to reap the benefits any day now due to the stadium' for GHod knows how long. Meanwhile the big clubs keep on doing their thing and we forever play catch up season on season maintaining 'everything is in place' to push on.

I'm happy to wait, I don't think our squad it as good as some like to think anyway so don't have massive expectations, just not convinced it will ever happen without a change in owners.....

We've spent a lot more on players since the stadium opened. A lot of it badly imo.
Just you have the likes of chelsea going mental. Saudis taking over Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Villa and forest spending like there is no tomorrow.

 

[Yiddo]

The same people who didn’t want him sacked at the end of the season are the same people wanting him sacked at Christmas. We scrapped through a Europa league cup that we were favourites for and now some fans have completely forgotten about the rest of the season and how poor we were. Winning a cup doesn’t automatically make you a good manager and you don’t magically go from being proper brick in the league to a superstar manager for winning a Europa league trophy. If you think we would miraculously become a great team because of 1 win then you really need to give your head a wobble.

 

[Daisuk]

If a fan thinks it's the right decision it doesn't mean they have committed some sort of treason to the cup win lol. It really is not that binary.

Absolutely. I absolutely loved (love) that we finally won a cup, a European cup no less, that Ange got his mighty comeback and fudge you to everyone laughing at him for saying he's always winning in the second season (I include myself in that) and so on. He's a legend in my book.

And I know I'll get stick for saying this, but I'm gonna say it anyway - if it hadn't been for a scrappy goal in a terrible match where we produced only the one shot on goal, and we would've lost it - it would have been obvious to anyone that he should be sacked. Absolutely no one would be against it (well, for the most part). We were terrible this season, fudging brick to watch.

Now, of course the match wasn't just any match and we came out as glorious winners of a European trophy for the first time in 41 years (and I absolutely fudging loved it, still do!) - but I think it's absolutely fair to say that despite winning that game, he should probably go anyway.

For the record, I would've been fine with him staying for another season, as he would have earned that, but I don't think he would've lasted long. How do you suddenly change your system to start winning in the PL after having had two seasons worth of it? I just don't see that happening based on our league form, which was just utterly atrocious.

So, I think:
I'm over the moon about the cup win, Ange is a legend, and I think he had earned a new season
I'm quite happy he doesn't get a new season, based on 85% of our games last season

Two seemingly conflicting opinions, yet, it's completely possible to have them both.