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Ange departs

Ange departs.

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    Votes: 81 42.6%
  • Out

    Votes: 109 57.4%

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    190
The same people who didn’t want him sacked at the end of the season are the same people wanting him sacked at Christmas. We scrapped through a Europa league cup that we were favourites for and now some fans have completely forgotten about the rest of the season and how poor we were. Winning a cup doesn’t automatically make you a good manager and you don’t magically go from being proper brick in the league to a superstar manager for winning a Europa league trophy. If you think we would miraculously become a great team because of 1 win then you really need to give your head a wobble.
We didn't scrape through anything in that cup. We comfortably qualified for the knock outs two points off top, and deservedly won each of our knockout games. Due to all our creative midfielders being injured we came up with a game plan which made sense and each player delivered. And incase you forgot he did get 5th in the league in his first season so by your own rules you don't go to being a brick manager because of one bad league season.

I'm fine with him being sacked if he's replaced with someone better, let's see if that's the case and what this better looks like....
 
We didn't scrape through anything in that cup. We comfortably qualified for the knock outs two points off top, and deservedly won each of our knockout games. Due to all our creative midfielders being injured we came up with a game plan which made sense and each player delivered. And incase you forgot he did get 5th in the league in his first season so by your own rules you don't go to being a brick manager because of one bad league season.

I'm fine with him being sacked if he's replaced with someone better, let's see if that's the case and what this better looks like....

We could have qualified 2 games before. Then have rested players giving youngsters a chance. But we struggled against rangers and lost to gala. Meaning we had to go full throttle the last couple of games.
It exacerbated our injury problems.
 
We didn't scrape through anything in that cup. We comfortably qualified for the knock outs two points off top, and deservedly won each of our knockout games. Due to all our creative midfielders being injured we came up with a game plan which made sense and each player delivered. And incase you forgot he did get 5th in the league in his first season so by your own rules you don't go to being a brick manager because of one bad league season.

I'm fine with him being sacked if he's replaced with someone better, let's see if that's the case and what this better looks like....
I think the following things are true

1. We had a good draw which made the run easier

2. We had a good draw because of our seeding from previous European campaigns and performances in the group stage

Basically we made the draw easier for ourselves
 
Something on Ange that I don’t see get discussed much (and that I think does him a disservice) is this idea that he should have adjusted more. But that is to misunderstand what exactly was ever going to make him successful to the extent that he wanted to be.

The thing with Ange, is that he has such unwavering belief in a system and principles of play, that he was never going to compromise completely on them. Nick Montgomery talks about this in an interview with an Aussie paper last week. He did adjust, but he could have adjusted more at the risk to the long term belief in the system and principles that he was building around, and that he hoped to get back to properly in his third season.

It’s like this: his system requires immense bravery and immense belief in it to carry off. The benefit is once everyone is locked in with it, it can lead to outsized results way beyond expectations. It requires doing something that no other team would be willing to dare to do, in order to get greater results than they thought possible. This is why players joined after speaking to him, and this is why they stayed behind him. It was belief in a bigger idea and something they were working towards.

If he compromised on that even more, it calls into question everything he was building towards. He absolutely did adjust the system for most of the last season, but as Montgomery says they didn’t fully adjust the principles. The reason being if you abandon them to be more pragmatic, just to fight your way back up to maybe 12th position, then it’s very difficult to go back there. You can’t ask the players to be braver than they’ve ever been as a non negotiable, and you can’t build a spirit around this idea that you are brave, if you are shown you are willing to abandon those principles yourself.

It’s this third prong that I don’t see talked about enough in discussion about our league form. It’s injuries, which lead to a focus on the Europa as the only way we can win something out of the season. But then it’s also caring about the long term plan he has with the team, and not wanting to abandon that. I have no doubt he could have been more pragmatic, and won a few more league games, but getting the players to adhere to extreme bravery in the next season would have then been the question. ETH abandoned a lot of his principles to be more pragmatic with United, and they looked bereft of identity. I see a lot of people saying Frank’s mix of ‘nice football most of the time, but pragmatic when he needs to be’ is the perfect mix for us at Spurs, as if it’s some cheat code that Ange or anyone else hasn’t thought of. It’s not a cheat code, it’s just another coaching choice with its own trade offs. We’ll have plenty of games where we don’t break teams down, but we’ll almost certainly be back in the top six at a minimum.

I was massively in favour of Ange because I liked his idea. That we were going to stand toe to toe with the biggest teams and try to win. That once he could have a settled side, with a deep enough experienced squad that knew how to play this way, we could really push beyond our place in the food chain in the same way we did with Poch. But we gave up on that. And it seems to me because either ENIC didn’t understand what Ange’s goal was with his decision making. Or that he was too much of a risk taker for them. They want the near certainty of top six money, not the riskier decisions that might ultimately lead us to getting more than that.
I agree with this as a discussion, and the construct of it is true.
From what you have written though, it has to be acknowledged he changed his tactics/approach for the EL...so if it would be detrimental to the overall plan to do that in the league then it has to have some or the same effect to do that in the cup.
Furthermore you have to consider what Ange is up against. I have no doubt he comes in with total belief and almost arrogance about his methods/system. It works after all.
To offer an analogy, it is that of a boxer, climbing the ranks.. And to refine that analogy I offer Prince Naseem Hamed. Exciting, full of self belief, unorthodox...a winner....then Barrera walks in the ring.

You're methods just meet a limit. If a majority of those methods are based in bravery, work ethic, togetherness (all 100% needed), don't be surprised if other things are required as you rise the ranks.

Of course, it could be argued you don't have (or get) the tools required (and what that requirement is at this level), but the level of an individuals own ability/methods (especially one so convinced by it) has to be the greatest consideration. Luckily you don't get knocked out in this sport....maybe outpointed.
 
We could have qualified 2 games before. Then have rested players giving youngsters a chance. But we struggled against rangers and lost to gala. Meaning we had to go full throttle the last couple of games.
It exacerbated our injury problems.
Well yes, there's always something more perfect a team could have done. Considering we were two points off top of the table so could most other teams....
 
I think the following things are true

1. We had a good draw which made the run easier

2. We had a good draw because of our seeding from previous European campaigns and performances in the group stage

Basically we made the draw easier for ourselves
The only issue I have with those saying what an easy cup win this was is that if our path to the final had ready AZ/Frankfurt/Lazio no one would have questioned it. But because Bode went through against Lazio, (who were much the better team by all accounts) and then we had the audacity to play well at home then execute plan perfectly it all of a sudden became 'only' beating Bode. When had it been an actually inferior Lazio team, we would have got more credit for it....
 
I agree with this as a discussion, and the construct of it is true.
From what you have written though, it has to be acknowledged he changed his tactics/approach for the EL...so if it would be detrimental to the overall plan to do that in the league then it has to have some or the same effect to do that in the cup.
Furthermore you have to consider what Ange is up against. I have no doubt he comes in with total belief and almost arrogance about his methods/system. It works after all.
To offer an analogy, it is that of a boxer, climbing the ranks.. And to refine that analogy I offer Prince Naseem Hamed. Exciting, full of self belief, unorthodox...a winner....then Barrera walks in the ring.

You're methods just meet a limit. If a majority of those methods are based in bravery, work ethic, togetherness (all 100% needed), don't be surprised if other things are required as you rise the ranks.

Of course, it could be argued you don't have (or get) the tools required (and what that requirement is at this level), but the level of an individuals own ability/methods (especially one so convinced by it) has to be the greatest consideration. Luckily you don't get knocked out in this sport....maybe outpointed.

Yeah, I think the distinction for the cup competition in terms of the very stark adjustment was something along the lines of ‘finals are for winning’ and he got the players to buy into almost a secondary idea that they were going to make something of this season, they would be winners despite all the challenges faced, and the way to do that was probably to surprise the opposition who would have expected something else. But the fact that he maintained enough of those principles in the league was his way of saying that they were still building towards something, the players should still buy in, and they’ll continue to be judged on how they adhere to this system.

I see what you are driving at with the idea that Ange’s methods would meet a limit but I would just counter that this sounds like a lot of the doubt he has experienced throughout his entire career. I think in terms of the start we made under him, and the underlying numbers we were showing this season before the injuries, I don’t think his methods were meeting a limit. We were going to some big teams and giving them a bloody nose.

But ultimately what Ange needs is trust and belief in him. I think his previous clubs gave it to him after subpar first seasons. We just never gave him the chance to have a settled side, with enough depth and experience. I would have dearly loved to see how it turned out. I really believe it would have been great, and I think the players knew it too. We have a squad that has worked under some of the best managers in the world, we’ve had World Cup winners etc. If there was any sense from our players that Ange had reached the limit of his capabilities at Spurs it would have shown from them. They wouldn’t support someone who they thought would make them worse, or reduce their chances of success. We just needed ENIC to believe. IMO :)
 
The only issue I have with those saying what an easy cup win this was is that if our path to the final had ready AZ/Frankfurt/Lazio no one would have questioned it. But because Bode went through against Lazio, (who were much the better team by all accounts) and then we had the audacity to play well at home then execute plan perfectly it all of a sudden became 'only' beating Bode. When had it been an actually inferior Lazio team, we would have got more credit for it....
I only saw the highlights and extra time of the Bodo/Lazio game, but seemed like Bodo could have been 3/4 up from first leg.

Honestly , I couldn't give a brick if we played A bus of school kids on the route to the final.
 
All the teams you named are in other leagues, it's not the same as the PL where even if say three big teams have an off season (which is in itself unlikely) there's still potentially another three plus teams to get through and produce beyond 'challenging'.

TBH I agree with you about where we are and what we are trying to do - I just don't think it's going to prove anymore fruitful in terms of trophies under these owners. I'm ok with it, and all we can do is try but I think a lot of our fan base has higher expectations than me and it all becomes a bit toxic if not delivered sooner rather than later and we enter this never ending death spiral....
I know they're in other leagues...it was jusr a comparison. I could say Villa Saudi Sportswashing Machine Everton if you wanted. (But I even feel we are better placed than them tbh). You yourself then added how difficult it is in the PL.

We both are pretty similar in the acceptance of where we are and what we are, and you're right about the fans. There is nothing you can do about that apart from detach yourself. That's not nice to do as it's a downgrade in your attachment to the club . But I square that with recognising it for what it is... exhausting, negative and largely toxic, so I dial down the engagement.
It's a shame this is even a discussion in the after glow of a trophy win.

Anyway.... I've just had the last two winners at Goodwood ....so at least I'm a winner :)

Edit:....the last 3 winners😎...that'll keep the Mrs happy.
 
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Welcome back, this is a blast from the past :D....

Thanks mate! Not sure why I stopped posting tbh but something about losing Ange really got me. It’s like he’s been misunderstood his whole career and then our owners go and do the same thing.

I think we’ll be absolutely fine under Frank. Minimum top 6 and top 4 in a good year. Ange to me though represented that we were going to try something truly different to upend the status quo. Frank suggests we’re gonna make sure to take care of what we have. There’s something not very To Dare Is To Do about the whole thing.
 
Which shows how competitive the league stage was. We didn't lose the game, we qualified in fourth two points off the top and went on to win the competition. The end....

The 2 best teams in the competition finished 15th and 17th in the prem.
Competitive for teams that weren't very good.
 
I think a good gage is to look at how many of the teams in Europa League qualified for next year's CL via their domestic leagues. Which means that they were stronger this season than the previous season when they had failed to qualify for the CL.
 
It wasn't the only thing he could accomplish, it was his having the approach to make the best of the bad season we'd had due to injuries. There's only so many ways that can be said before it becomes repetitive. Would you have preferred to finish 10th and go out to Frankfurt?
That wasn’t an option it would have been finish 15th and go out to Frankfurt.
 
So, I think:
I'm over the moon about the cup win, Ange is a legend, and I think he had earned a new season
I'm quite happy he doesn't get a new season, based on 85% of our games last season

Two seemingly conflicting opinions, yet, it's completely possible to have them both.

I feel the same way.

I think it worth remembering that it wasn't just one bad league season. He had an excellent start over his first ten games, but the league performance since then was poor. 12 losses from 28 games and 22 losses from 38. That's losing over half the league games (34/66) over 18 months. We finished last season with 5/7 losses and the other two were against relegated teams; there was no prioritising a cup then.

Overall, I think it best Ange goes out on a high. A poor start, a few months of speculation and a Ramos-like exit would be miserable. He'll be remembered for the cup win rather than for being deservedly sacked like Ramos.
 
I agree with this as a discussion, and the construct of it is true.
From what you have written though, it has to be acknowledged he changed his tactics/approach for the EL...so if it would be detrimental to the overall plan to do that in the league then it has to have some or the same effect to do that in the cup.
Furthermore you have to consider what Ange is up against. I have no doubt he comes in with total belief and almost arrogance about his methods/system. It works after all.
To offer an analogy, it is that of a boxer, climbing the ranks.. And to refine that analogy I offer Prince Naseem Hamed. Exciting, full of self belief, unorthodox...a winner....then Barrera walks in the ring.

You're methods just meet a limit. If a majority of those methods are based in bravery, work ethic, togetherness (all 100% needed), don't be surprised if other things are required as you rise the ranks.

Of course, it could be argued you don't have (or get) the tools required (and what that requirement is at this level), but the level of an individuals own ability/methods (especially one so convinced by it) has to be the greatest consideration. Luckily you don't get knocked out in this sport....maybe outpointed.
Ricky somewhere embedded in this you have said his system works. It doesn’t work, not domestically at Premier League level it doesn’t. It only just scraped over the line at Tamworth.
 
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