Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[DubaiSpur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

All I would say to that is AVB was trying to move us forward toward playing a certain way. Last season he was pragmatic, he did what he could with what he was given. This year, I think the feeling would be that if we are ever going to get to the point where we reap the rewards of the system he wants to implement, the time for being pragmatic and making do is over. We go with it, we take the rough with the smooth, and we work towards getting to where we want to be. There would never be a point that he decides we are suddenly going to play his system and do it successfully, having played a 4-4-2 or an entirely different style before it. We needed to start using his system if we were ever going to get good at it, so the inconsistencies for me were expected and necessary. If we had decided to go 4-4-2 again after spending 26 on Soldado, but also 30 on Lamela, 12 on Eriksen, Holtby being here, Townsend back, Lennon, Sig, Chadli in the squad, we would have been entirely unsuited to it. We signed players to play a certain system and we needed to start doing it IMO. Otherwise we'd never do it, and we'd never get good at it.

Sherwood is going great work, but AVB was trying to achieve something in another direction. Sherwood isn't on AVB's road so he can bring Ade back almost like a new signing because he's trying to achieve something else. But for what AVB wanted to get to, Ade was no longer necessary. We had signed a number of players both upfront and in behind that meant he didn't have a place any more. I don't think he's stubborn he's trying to get the system to work by having the players play it competitively. I would argue that the reason the players were broadly still ok with giving it a go under AVB was because it would be acknowledged in the squad that the heavy defeats didn't happen because the players are rubbish or because they aren't trying, but the system is forming the inconsistencies. So we're able to bounce back from heavy defeats and confidence isn't all that dented really, the players know it's not personal on them, it's the system, and if they keep following the process, hopefully they would eventually get it.

I'm not saying AVB should have changed his system: I was okay with him trying to implement it (even if I still question his logic: why not get top four first (Levy's objective), sign a three or four year deal, and only then implement the system, once everyone understands your worth?). However, I do question his willful refusal to use a squad asset once it became clear there was no way that asset could be moved on.

Instead of playing Soldado up front, why not try to play Ade there? It required but a tweak to his system,not a wholesale change. If the system was generating inconsistencies, tweak it to ensure maximum efficacy in the short term, and then revert to your longer-term plan once the team achieves some level of confidence and cohesion.

All he had to do to attain an aerial presence in the box was play Ade there: it would have allowed us to at least present more of a threat from the many crosses Townsend, Lennon and Lamela put in over the course of AVB's 2013-2014. It would mean setting aside any personal qualms he had over Ade's percieved commitment levels and his desire to have a completely focused, single-minded squad, but Ade essentially offered a chance for him to trade some team harmony for time, and there's no reason not to think that the AVB we saw at the beginning of his tenure (cheerful, friendly, laid-back, astute) couldn't have sparked at least a bit of life into Emmanuel.

But he didn't do it, perhaps because of his growing stubbornness as the leaves turned red and fluttered away, and now we are both left to regret what his tenure ultimately became: a footnote to the rise and sale of the most expensive footballer in the world.

Sigh. Still, new manager, new era, some great results and a 2014 to look forward to again. As you say, no reason to delve back into the past.

 

[veron23]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

is anybody else not worried about/noticed the following in the TS era?

1)the gap between our defenders and midfielders is alarming large, teams are getting in between the lines alot example against southampton they were through on to our 18yard line on a few occasions and if they had better players should have caused us real damage and we wouldnt be talking about a 2-3 win.
2)as much as TS sais we work hard ive seen us not be on our toes in midfield and lose a lot of second balls ( again due to the gap beween midfielders and defenders being too much ) example today eriksen and co wernt running back quick enough and a lot of lose balls were picked up by utd players because our players jogged back instead of running back and wernt in position. again, against better players or on another day we should have conceeded a few goals because of such novice detail.

i fear if we dont sort our midfield positioning enough i.e creating triangles and supporting team mates quicker were due a hiding. i see teams just going through our midfield too easy at the moment.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

is anybody else not worried about/noticed the following in the TS era?

1)the gap between defenders mid and strikers is quite large, teams are getting in between the lines alot example against southampton they were through on to our 18yard line on a few occasions and if they had better players should have caused us real damage and we wouldnt be talking about a 2-3 win.
2)as much as TS sais we work hard ive seen us not be on our toes in midfield and lose a lot of second balls ( again due to the gap beween midfielders and defenders being too much ) example today eriksen and co wernt running back quick enough and a lot of lose balls were picked up by utd players because our players jogged back instead of running back. again, against better players or on another day we should have conceeded a few goals because of such novice detail.

i fear if we dont sort our midfield positioning enough i.e creating triangles and supporting team mates quicker were due a hiding. i see teams just going through our midfield too easy at the moment.

1) Against Southampton, we played Eriksen and Dembele as our CM pair, if I remember correctly. They were hardly going to track back much, and it was natural that they would leave a gap between our midfield and our defence as they wandered forward looking for space. I think Tim's learned from that, as evidenced by him playing Capoue alongside Dembele today and shifting Eriksen wide: Capoue was constantly taking to Dembele and telling him what to do, with the result being that they dropped into the space between the defence and midfield a lot in order to screen our back line from slide-rule through balls, and more importantly, they did it as a pair: even when Dembele went upfield, it was only because Capoue took up a defensive position allowing him to do so, which speaks well of our coaching staff's understanding of the need for a link between midfield and defence.

2) They've played a lot of games recently, and I think Tim deliberately set us up in a way that saw is ignore pressing and rabid chasing after the ball in favour of keeping our shape and maintaining positions in the event of a chance to counter. Again, I wouldn't worry about it considering the energy Eriksen and Dembele showed against Southampton and Eriksen's very acceptable defensive efforts so far.

 

[veron23]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

1) Against Southampton, we played Eriksen and Dembele as our CM pair, if I remember correctly. They were hardly going to track back much, and it was natural that they would leave a gap between our midfield and our defence as they wandered forward looking for space. I think Tim's learned from that, as evidenced by him playing Capoue alongside Dembele today and shifting Eriksen wide: Capoue was constantly taking to Dembele and telling him what to do, with the result being that they dropped into the space between the defence and midfield a lot in order to screen our back line from slide-rule through balls, and more importantly, they did it as a pair: even when Dembele went upfield, it was only because Capoue took up a defensive position allowing him to do so, which speaks well of our coaching staff's understanding of the need for a link between midfield and defence.

2) They've played a lot of games recently, and I think Tim deliberately set us up in a way that saw is ignore pressing and rabid chasing after the ball in favour of keeping our shape and maintaining positions in the event of a chance to counter. Again, I wouldn't worry about it considering the energy Eriksen and Dembele showed against Southampton and Eriksen's very acceptable defensive efforts so far.

maybe im worrying too much but the fact remains that utd got a lot of lose balls which they had no right to win and should have easily scored. eriksen is working harder than i expected especially of an apparant "lightweight" but i remember one example in particular where eriksen was casually joggin back and the ball came lose near our goal and if eriksen was running instead of jogging back the ball would have fell to him naturally but instead it fell to utd they had a shot at goal. losing to a better team i can accept but thers no excuse to lose to something like that where we it takes no ability to just be in position and cut out mistakes.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

maybe im worrying too much but the fact remains that utd got a lot of lose balls which they had no right to win and should have easily scored. eriksen is working harder than i expected especially of an apparant "lightweight" but i remember one example in particular where eriksen was casually joggin back and the ball came lose near our goal and if eriksen was running instead of jogging back the ball would have fell to him naturally but instead it fell to utd they had a shot at goal. losing to a better team i can accept but thers no excuse to lose to something like that where we it takes no ability to just be in position and cut out mistakes.

Again, perhaps Eriksen was jogging because he wanted to maintain position in case we retrieved the ball from that dangerous situation and needed someone to spark a counter-attack quickly, or just to hold up possession further up the field while waiting for options to materialise. Or perhaps he was literally too tired to run and feared that if he charged back to make a challenge, he'd concede a penalty. We have no way of knowing so early into Sherwood's tenure, essentially.

I recognize your conundrum: it's too early to conclusively tell whether Tim's actually setting his team up to play this way or if we're just playing 'off the cuff' and thus leaving Tim with little recourse should we make a mistake like the one you mentioned. But I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that you're worrying a bit too much. Relax, we'll come good. And if not, it'll be a fun ride until we appoint LVG/de Boer/ A.N. Other in the summer.

 

[veron23]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Again, perhaps Eriksen was jogging because he wanted to maintain position in case we retrieved the ball from that dangerous situation and needed someone to spark a counter-attack quickly, or just to hold up possession further up the field while waiting for options to materialise. Or perhaps he was literally too tired to run and feared that if he charged back to make a challenge, he'd concede a penalty. We have no way of knowing so early into Sherwood's tenure, essentially.

I recognize your conundrum: it's too early to conclusively tell whether Tim's actually setting his team up to play this way or if we're just playing 'off the cuff' and thus leaving Tim with little recourse should we make a mistake like the one you mentioned. But I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that you're worrying a bit too much. Relax, we'll come good. And if not, it'll be a fun ride until we appoint LVG/de Boer/ A.N. Other in the summer.

it definatly wasnt tiredness as wen eriksen saw the lose ball he began to sprint but it was too late. it just seems that the players are not aknowledging the importance of playing close together, we cant expect to go away to utd and leave our back 4 to deal with everything especially when utd were pressing high in numbers. we need to support and play trangles to get out of trouble which is what all good teams do. we got away with it today but on other days we wont.

i definately want FDB if TS dont work. he comes from the school of triangles all over the pitch.

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

A lot of interesting conversations in this thread, my view and summary of a bit of it (lot of what other people said)

- Spurs goal is to get into CL consistently to help minimize the financial disadvantage the traditional top 4 have had, now with the additional issue of money doping like Cheat$ki/City
- We won't outspend those clubs either in buying, net spend, total spend and wages (add it all up together and we are way behind)
- Levy's goal was to Scara's point, how do I build a system that produces more than the sum of the parts -> hence DoF, training ground, Ramos/AVB

That said, a couple of things come to mind

- Harry was obviously successful mostly as a motivator (don't believe he was as tactically naïve as people like to paint), TS has had some combination of similar, right formation for squad, little more individual freedom and personal motivation of key players.
- Does that mean TS has no long term system/plan? really don't know, he has adapted in each of last games, Capoue today was a realization that the midfield game would be different against a top team.

The other question (Scara?)

- Can simply getting a team motivated and setup to make the best of their abilities close the gap of the financial disadvantage? the question of us always being behind assumes that those teams are operating at something close to the top end of their capabilities and I'm not sure I agree that is the case. I look at Cheat$ki and City and they should be well clear of everyone else at this stage, purely based on squad and quality of first 11 and bench, yet they are not.

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If I'm not mistaken, next week will be our first full week on the training pitch this season. We've had a match every midweek so far, apart from international breaks.

 

[greatwhitenorf]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If you looked at Sherwood's tenure so far, it's fair to say the best many of us hoped for from the past four matches was 10 points. Wins against Sunderland, West Brom and Stoke and a draw at ManU. The home draw to WBA was a blow, but the win at Old Trafford evened things in a very desirable manner.

The debate raging above about Sherwood's merits or flaws is often tempered by the fact that we've only had four opportunities to see what he can do with the squad. So far, so good, in my opinion. But fate is being kind to Sherwood, the timing of the change handing him a manageable stretch of games to get the squad working together.

We're in the midst of what might be this season's longest period of winnable matches. ManU were never going to be the high hurdle they were in past years, especially since we won there in Fergie the Terrible's final season. Leaving aside the FA Cup match with Arsenal for a moment, Spurs next two games are home to Palace and away to Swansea. Both would have to be viewed as winnable.

That would be a nice little streak to carry into the next match, Emirates Marketing Project's Jan. 29 visit, where we should get a proper reading of Sherwood's managing skills. So here's Sherwood's first dozen games as Spurs manager. He's bagged 10 of the first 12 points available. A draw with City would be acceptable, as would one up at Saudi Sportswashing Machine. The Everton game will be a big test for him - a win would be huge, a draw acceptable if he maintains Spurs superiority over the lower sides.

@ Sunderland - W 3-2
WBA - D 1-1
Stoke - W 3-0
@ ManU - W 2-1
FA Cup - @ Arsenal
Crystal Palace - W
@ Swansea - W
Emirates Marketing Project - D
@ Hull - W
Everton - W
@ Saudi Sportswashing Machine -D
@ Norwich - W
Cardiff City - W

If they can achieve the results indicated, Spurs collect 9 wins and three draws from his first 12 games - 30 out of 36 points. Even losing to City would only clip one point from my projected number, still an excellent start. We'd be at 66 or more points with 10 games to play and a top-four finish would still be in sight, something Levy is no doubt pressing anxiously for.

Like I said, fate's being kind to Sherwood. He should have the team well in hand by March, which offers up our most challenging second-half stretch - Chelsea, Arsenal, Southampton, Liverpool. The final five games after that are all winnable.

I'm not sure what sort of commitment Sherwood will bring to the Europa league campaign. If Spurs are in the hunt for top four as March rolls in, I'd be prepared to run out the reserves. But Sunday's FA Cup clash at Arsenal will no doubt see our best 11 on the pitch. A win there offers instant legend status. Heck, even earning a replay would bring some malicious glee. The replay at WHL would come two days after Arsenal's Jan. 13 visit to Villa. Win or lose, it'll be a rousing experience that should only help Sherwood's cause.

 

[Enter the Pitbull]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Like Harry he has the kind of face you want to slap.

I think that's a good thing. Too much fawning over AVB's rugged euro looks. Let the football do the talking.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

A lot of interesting conversations in this thread, my view and summary of a bit of it (lot of what other people said)

- Spurs goal is to get into CL consistently to help minimize the financial disadvantage the traditional top 4 have had, now with the additional issue of money doping like Cheat$ki/City
- We won't outspend those clubs either in buying, net spend, total spend and wages (add it all up together and we are way behind)
- Levy's goal was to Scara's point, how do I build a system that produces more than the sum of the parts -> hence DoF, training ground, Ramos/AVB

That said, a couple of things come to mind

- Harry was obviously successful mostly as a motivator (don't believe he was as tactically naïve as people like to paint), TS has had some combination of similar, right formation for squad, little more individual freedom and personal motivation of key players.
- Does that mean TS has no long term system/plan? really don't know, he has adapted in each of last games, Capoue today was a realization that the midfield game would be different against a top team.

The other question (Scara?)

- Can simply getting a team motivated and setup to make the best of their abilities close the gap of the financial disadvantage? the question of us always being behind assumes that those teams are operating at something close to the top end of their capabilities and I'm not sure I agree that is the case. I look at Cheat$ki and City and they should be well clear of everyone else at this stage, purely based on squad and quality of first 11 and bench, yet they are not.

I think that's a pretty good summary of my concerns.

Regarding the underperformance of the clubs on cheat mode, I think that was manager transition. Both are much more reliable now than they were at the start of the season. Assuming the ****y one doesn't have a nervous breakdown, I can't see them dropping back much. The goons have paid off their stadium and can out spend us, and if Moyes gets his act together or gets replaced we're unlikely to compete with Utd either.

We also have to take into account Liverpool. Their marketing appeal is massive compared to us, and until we're in a new stadium they can out spend us too. They're still recovering from the abortion that was Dalglish's reign, but Rodgers only needs to spend well and get the team playing to the sum of their parts to stay ahead of us long term.

Regarding Sherwood's long term plan (or lack of), my issue is that on more than one occasion he's referred to football as a simple game. Someone who refers to football as a simple game is either:

a) So incredibly intelligent that they can take into account all the chess-like complexities of the tactical side of the game, along with a good understanding of fitness/stamina/diet etc, with the added complications that Chaos Theory can bring, take into account some game theory, the incentive side of socio-economics, and all the other hundreds of issues I haven't thought of this morning without using much brain power at all.

b) Incapable of understanding just how complex football is.

c) Lying.

I doubt Timmeh is a, and I hope he's not c because that in itself is a very short-term plan. You can only play dumb once, so don't waste it until you really need it.

 

[harr1984]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sorry, but football fundamentally is a simple game....

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think that's a pretty good summary of my concerns.

Regarding the underperformance of the clubs on cheat mode, I think that was manager transition. Both are much more reliable now than they were at the start of the season. Assuming the ****y one doesn't have a nervous breakdown, I can't see them dropping back much. The goons have paid off their stadium and can out spend us, and if Moyes gets his act together or gets replaced we're unlikely to compete with Utd either.

We also have to take into account Liverpool. Their marketing appeal is massive compared to us, and until we're in a new stadium they can out spend us too. They're still recovering from the abortion that was Dalglish's reign, but Rodgers only needs to spend well and get the team playing to the sum of their parts to stay ahead of us long term.

Regarding Sherwood's long term plan (or lack of), my issue is that on more than one occasion he's referred to football as a simple game. Someone who refers to football as a simple game is either:

a) So incredibly intelligent that they can take into account all the chess-like complexities of the tactical side of the game, along with a good understanding of fitness/stamina/diet etc, with the added complications that Chaos Theory can bring, take into account some game theory, the incentive side of socio-economics, and all the other hundreds of issues I haven't thought of this morning without using much brain power at all.

b) Incapable of understanding just how complex football is.

c) Lying.

I doubt Timmeh is a, and I hope he's not c because that in itself is a very short-term plan. You can only play dumb once, so don't waste it until you really need it.

Option c is fine in public at least. It's not like a deep intellectual football tactical conversation will happen in the media anyway, and I'm not sure it would be beneficial if it was possible.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sorry, but football fundamentally is a simple game....

See b)

In all seriousness though, that's a bit of a silly statement.

String Theory is fundamentally simple. Fermat's Last Theorem is fundamentally simple. Understanding and properly utilising complex things are not so simple.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Mabbs was interviewed on the Today programme this morning about Sherwood's appointment

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/today/today_20140102-0945a.mp3

 

[Pandy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think that's a pretty good summary of my concerns.

Regarding the underperformance of the clubs on cheat mode, I think that was manager transition. Both are much more reliable now than they were at the start of the season. Assuming the ****y one doesn't have a nervous breakdown, I can't see them dropping back much. The goons have paid off their stadium and can out spend us, and if Moyes gets his act together or gets replaced we're unlikely to compete with Utd either.

We also have to take into account Liverpool. Their marketing appeal is massive compared to us, and until we're in a new stadium they can out spend us too. They're still recovering from the abortion that was Dalglish's reign, but Rodgers only needs to spend well and get the team playing to the sum of their parts to stay ahead of us long term.

Regarding Sherwood's long term plan (or lack of), my issue is that on more than one occasion he's referred to football as a simple game. Someone who refers to football as a simple game is either:

a) So incredibly intelligent that they can take into account all the chess-like complexities of the tactical side of the game, along with a good understanding of fitness/stamina/diet etc, with the added complications that Chaos Theory can bring, take into account some game theory, the incentive side of socio-economics, and all the other hundreds of issues I haven't thought of this morning without using much brain power at all.

b) Incapable of understanding just how complex football is.

c) Lying.

I doubt Timmeh is a, and I hope he's not c because that in itself is a very short-term plan. You can only play dumb once, so don't waste it until you really need it.

Nothing he has said suggests he thinks that football is a simple game. Every comment has been made in the context of questions like 'how have you turned this team around and got them playing freely?' and 'how have you invigorated Adebayor?'.

These are questions where responses will always be about the motivational side of the game. Moreover, it is this area where the best soundbites for the media come.

Sherwood looks like he is getting the media on-side, which is vital, and something AVB struggled with throughout his time in England. Even little quips like 'there's ice on every part of Adebayor's body at the moment' are exactly what the media love, and what Redknapp was so brilliant at. Getting the media on-side is a massively underrated part of being a manager, and AVB's technical jargon was not useful in this regard.

You reference several quasi-academic fields, presumably to add weight to your post. Look up Goffman's "Presentation of the Self" for an explanation of Sherwood's handling of the media.

How on earth do you know what goes on in his head? On the training ground? In the board room? And why can he only 'play dumb' once? To me it seems like a consistent tactic for handling the media, and for all AVB's excellent qualities, this wasn't one of them. But it certainly doesn't preclude him from being tactically astute away from the cameras.

You could even say he has more of a plan than AVB. We are rapidly seeing our best team form - something none of us could see under AVB. The 'wonky' with Eriksen/Lennon and Townsend/Lamela looks like it could become our standard tactic, especially seeing as Chadli has been tried in the centre more often recently with other players given a chance out wide.

Have a bit of faith for christ's sake - we just won and Old Trafford. At least pause your incessant criticism and give him a chance to show his tactical flexibility and astuteness...

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

To expand a little, take the game against United.

It seemed obvious to me that Sherwood was very aware of the threat Carrick posed for example. Ade and Soldado did well to get close to him, Dembele closed him down whenever possible to help out and apart from a couple of situations Carrick wasn't allowed to be as good as he can be. Fairly basic, but a tactical decision.

Another example is the Bentaleb substitution. We were put under a fair bit of pressure at that time, Sherwood took off the more experienced defensive midfielder and put on the younger Bentaleb who's the better passer. Not the standard "pack the midfield" option, seemed to me based on the realization that sitting back to soak up the pressure wasn't going to work all that well. We had to retain possession. And for a key time in the match we did just that and the real pressure didn't start until around the 87th-88th minute. An astute, brave, tactical decision I think.

In his post match press conference Tim talked more about heart and workrate. He did mention that we weren't good enough on the ball and I appreciate that, but he didn't go into how we dealt with Carrick or why he put on Bentaleb. Is there a need for that? I don't think so. As long as solid decisions are made the slightly funny, jovial, public persona of Sherwood makes no difference.

 

[harr1984]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

See b)

Lol mate if you think football is this really complex thing then thats your opinion but I disagree. Many a manager has come in and try and be clever and really methodical and it just doesn't work....

 

[Notmegov]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Intresting thanks

 

[DeanoAustin]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think that's a pretty good summary of my concerns.

Regarding the underperformance of the clubs on cheat mode, I think that was manager transition. Both are much more reliable now than they were at the start of the season. Assuming the ****y one doesn't have a nervous breakdown, I can't see them dropping back much. The goons have paid off their stadium and can out spend us, and if Moyes gets his act together or gets replaced we're unlikely to compete with Utd either.

We also have to take into account Liverpool. Their marketing appeal is massive compared to us, and until we're in a new stadium they can out spend us too. They're still recovering from the abortion that was Dalglish's reign, but Rodgers only needs to spend well and get the team playing to the sum of their parts to stay ahead of us long term.

Regarding Sherwood's long term plan (or lack of), my issue is that on more than one occasion he's referred to football as a simple game. Someone who refers to football as a simple game is either:

a) So incredibly intelligent that they can take into account all the chess-like complexities of the tactical side of the game, along with a good understanding of fitness/stamina/diet etc, with the added complications that Chaos Theory can bring, take into account some game theory, the incentive side of socio-economics, and all the other hundreds of issues I haven't thought of this morning without using much brain power at all.

b) Incapable of understanding just how complex football is.

c) Lying.

I doubt Timmeh is a, and I hope he's not c because that in itself is a very short-term plan. You can only play dumb once, so don't waste it until you really need it.

Listen to what people like John Giles, Alex Ferguson, Brian Clough have had to say on the subject. Fundamentally football is a simple game.

There are some complexities but one of the keys to being a great manager, in any walk of life, are taking the complexities and simplifying them so that the people you are managing can understand what you want. The way AVB spoke, I got the sense that he wasn't very good at that part of it. Harry was and Sherwood seems to have a bit of that in him.

All this stuff about controlling games, irrelevant stats and long term plans is pseudo intellectual nonsense.