Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Daisuk]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

As much as I hate to say it, our nomadic neighbours are the perfect example of what we need to do. Can you honestly say you can see Sherwood being the architect and implementer of such a system like Wenger? I just don't see it.

So like I said, I'm doing everything I can to ignore the long term because Levy 's clearly not doing anything about it, so I might as well just enjoy each match as an individual entity.

I get that you're ****ed off about us sacking AVB and hiring Sherwood, but I fail to see why you assumed AVB had such a master plan, and why you assume Sherwood doesn't have a plan at all.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I get that you're ****ed off about us sacking AVB and hiring Sherwood, but I fail to see why you assumed AVB had such a master plan, and why you assume Sherwood doesn't have a plan at all.

I already answered that question twice a few pages back. Sherwood keeps talking about how simple football is, can't remember the other things he said - have a look for my other post.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It's a different job though and most TV channels want someone who can make the game seem simple and offer a few quips. Maybe he was just delivering what he was being paid to do.

I hope that's the case. That would be some serious dedication to a dumb act though - playing thick for a decade in order to fool people for a few matches? That's some serious dedication!

 

[Stenno]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Does he not rate Lamela?

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I hope that's the case. That would be some serious dedication to a dumb act though - playing thick for a decade in order to fool people for a few matches? That's some serious dedication!

There are plenty of smart people who have looked stupid when put in front of a television camera. I have no idea either way but I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. So far he has exceeded my expectations, the performances have got progressively better and he has got performances out of Soldado and Eriksen that AVB could only dream of. I have no idea whether he is someone who can build for the future but his willingness to use academy players bodes well.

 

[Pandy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I already answered that question twice a few pages back. Sherwood keeps talking about how simple football is, can't remember the other things he said - have a look for my other post.

His criticisms of our performance today, not finding the most dangerous players in the correct positions, but saying 'it'll come with time', to me show that Sherwood has a system he is looking to implement with well defined roles and combination pays to create not just chances, but the right sort of chances.

Under AVB, whenever we had a lot of shots, many of them were chances of poor quality. By playing with more men up the pitch and being more direct, we are able to expose transitional holes in the opposition.

This rarely happened under AVB, we had a few decent counter-attacks, but by and large we wee far too conservative in possession in order to 'control' games. The problem was we were so obsessed with controlling the game, that the quality of our chances suffered because our slow build-up allowed the opposition to reform defensively, and when facing teams who park the bus, we seemed unable to pick a high risk ball in behind the defence.

Sherwood is building a team that attacks at pace, and using a different formation. The the tactical ramifications of these changes will not be implemented overnight, especially during the hectic Christmas period.

Today we saw some very promising signs and a distinct, progressive improvement that has been evident in each game Sherwood has managed. We are moving in the right direction to play Sherwood's system and requisite tactics.

Ideally in a few months things will truly click and we will become Emirates Marketing Project lite. What makes you and all the other dissenters assume that Sherwood doesn't have a tactical pan akin to that of Pelligrini at City? Our team is very much resembling theirs at the moment, albeit with less class:

Sweeper GK: Lloris = Hart
Attacking full backs: Rose = Clichy/Kolarov, Walker = Zabaleta
Powerful, techincal CB: Kaboul = Kompany, Vertonghen/Chriches = Nastasic
Powerful CM: Paulinho = Yaya Toure, Dembele=Fernandinho
Techinal 'interiores': Eriksen = Nasri, Lamela = Silva
Pacey wingers to stretch the play: Lennon/Townsend = Navas
Powerful technical ST: Adebayor = Dzeko/Negredo
Pacey goalcoring ST: Defoe = Aguero
Technical goalscoring ST: Soldado = Aguero

And anyway - since when do media comments mean anything? I Thought Sherwood was meant to be Redknapp lite.. surely that must mean he talks b0llocks to the press!?

 

[DHSF]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

There are plenty of smart people who have looked stupid when put in front of a television camera. I have no idea either way but I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. So far he has exceeded my expectations, the performances have got progressively better and he has got performances out of Soldado and Eriksen that AVB could only dream of. I have no idea whether he is someone who can build for the future but his willingness to use academy players bodes well.

When people come in for a job and they lack the experience to back up their application for the role, its their competencies, ambition, drive, determination and aspiration that would come to the fore. He appears to have those in abundance. Those are all required to succeed in the long term simply because they, like TS, have it all to prove. He strikes me as one of those that wants to build a legacy and he is evidencing that by how he is playing the youngsters.

Time will tell as you say but I dont think his ambition for long term success should be put into question.

 

[Pandy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Does he not rate Lamela?

Think his exclusion today was more for tactical reasons. He has got half an hour (?) in each of the previous games and looked dangerous, but Lennon has always given Evra a decent game, and is familiar with the defensive responsibilities associated with playing against him.

Sherwood was vindicated in the excellent performance Lennon put in today both in and out of possession, in attack and defense. It is classic Lennon really - get injured, look like a Championship player on his return, and about 5 games later suddenly pull out the vintage Lennon performances we all know and love.

Let's hope he doesn't get injured again, we could do with him on form for the rest of the season. He is an incredible threat on form. I also liked the balance offered with Eriksen coming inside and Lennon hugging the touchline.

The famous africanspurs 'wonky' vanquishing United at Old Trafford. Marvellous.

As for Lamela, he could play LM with Lennon RM, but he looks better on the right. When Townsend returns we will be able to maintain the wonky with him on the left and Lamela on the right.

Also, against smaller teams who will afford us little space in behind, nullifying Lennon's pace somewhat, Lamela and Eriksen could both be used in order to provide a bit more guile in the centre, with Walker and Rose still able to provide pace in wide areas on the overlap.

I think Lamela will certainly have a big role to play under Sherwood, but today wasn't the right game for him.

 

[Cochise]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agreed, Lamela at this moment in time is not the player needed to see out a 2-1 win, he hasn't settled well enough yet. If we had been chasing the game then he would've been sent on, but the only techinical substitution today was Kane and that was because we needed someone with a bit more physical presence IMO.

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

How did AVB disrespect us? If anything he was amazingly good at representing us. All he asked was for the crowd at the Lane to get behind us, as the players wanted more support. If anything Redknapp disrespected us by calling Spurs fans stupid and them telling us this was as good as it gets. AVB may not have worked out, but he was ever gracious with the fans and the clubs reputation.

Sorry in my opinion in the following press conference AVB is disrespecting the fans especially as he had been at the club for 5 minutes. Not every one in the crowd was booing. I certainly wasn't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJk43NVJ1L4

Any way great game from Tim today really pleased for him. Concerned though with the number of injuries and how he will deal with them. Also hope he brings back BAE.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

One thing we seem To have with our youngsters is players who pass the ball well. This is appearing if you watch QPR for Carroll, Swindon for Mason or Bentelab today. There all technically very good and that's because they have IMO natural talent clearly but technique drummed into them by the youth team coaching stuff lead by Tim at the top (not necessarily hands on)

Bentelabs stats for passing today considering we were under the cosh were great, 91% accuracy and 86% in their half accurate. That kind of passing keeps possession which means quite simply they can't score

Compare that with a French international midfielder in Capoue who had passing accuracy of 58% and 37.5% in their half!!!!

Sherwood and the coaches must be doing something right with the youngsters as they walked the league last season only to have my favourite buttplug of a play off game. And now he has got us playing decent football very very quickly.

I swear if it was Martinez doing what he has done this quickly there would be people on here offering free blowies to him!!!!!

He is far far from the finished article but so far we have seen improvement in every game.

He is bringing through youngsters from within the club too which is a big improvement and he is getting us playing football. **** his interviews... The Southampton manager still doesn't speak English in his.

Judge him in the performances in the pitch

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

One thing we seem To have with our youngsters is players who pass the ball well. This is appearing if you watch QPR for Carroll, Swindon for Mason or Bentelab today. There all technically very good and that's because they have IMO natural talent clearly but technique drummed into them by the youth team coaching stuff lead by Tim at the top (not necessarily hands on)

Bentelabs stats for passing today considering we were under the cosh were great, 91% accuracy and 86% in their half accurate. That kind of passing keeps possession which means quite simply they can't score

Compare that with a French international midfielder in Capoue who had passing accuracy of 58% and 37.5% in their half!!!!

Sherwood and the coaches must be doing something right with the youngsters as they walked the league last season only to have my favourite buttplug of a play off game. And now he has got us playing decent football very very quickly

I swear if it was Martinez doing what he has done this quickly there would be people on here offering free blowies to him!!!!!

He is far far from the finished article but so far we have seen improvement in every game.
He is bringing through youngsters from within the club too which is a big improvement in AVB there

I am still dumbfounded as to why we sold Huddlestone and bought in Capoue. Of our 7 signings he's the one I have been least convinced by. I suspect he will not make the first team once Sandro is fit.

 

[Cochise]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Capoue impressed me with his first few appearances before injury, but now he seems less confident. Maybe the injury or the change in formation play a part, especially as he has had to play as a defender for most of the last month prior to the Southampton game. He also limped off today so his fitness could be an issue. I'd also like to say that given the way Rooney presses most midfielders would have problems retaining posession although those figures are damning.

AVB sold Huddlestone and had Capoue brought in to cover the Sandro position in his 4231. He was ideal for that role whilst Huddlestone wasn't. There was logic there as Huddlestone needs a decent worker alongside him which AVB didn't want. I'm not defending the decision just saying I can see the logic in it.

 

[the dza]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Capoue impressed me with his first few appearances before injury, but now he seems less confident. Maybe the injury or the change in formation play a part, especially as he has had to play as a defender for most of the last month prior to the Southampton game. He also limped off today so his fitness could be an issue. I'd also like to say that given the way Rooney presses most midfielders would have problems retaining posession although those figures are damning.

If Sherwood continues to do well and is here for next season, I can see him bringing back Carroll and Livermore to replace Hotlby and Capoue.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If Sherwood continues to do well and is here for next season, I can see him bringing back Carroll and Livermore to replace Hotlby and Capoue.

Agreed although I personally rate both Capoue and. Holtby when fit and played in their correct positions

The issue is that neither if them suit the system were now playing IMO

Hotlby is a box to box player and Capiue looks to be a pure holder. I think Sherwood wants more from his midfielders hence why the more technical ones are playing

Where has Holtby and Siggy been in the last few squads by the way?

 

[the dza]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Agreed although I personally rate both Capoue and. Holtby when fit and played in their correct positions

The issue is that neither if them suit the system were now playing IMO

Hotlby is a box to box player and Capiue looks to be a pure holder. I think Sherwood wants more from his midfielders hence why the more technical ones are playing

Where has Holtby and Siggy been in the last few squads by the way?

Yeah, I don't think we have any bad players. I just reckon that, if there's not much in it ability wise, Sherwood will choose to go with an academy product over an imported player. And I don't think that's a bad thing either.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

This isn't wrong, it's a choice he decides to make, and if backed we would see the benefits of that. As it is, we are backing Sherwood and seeing the benefit of his choices. But if we suddenly start shipping tonnes of goals under TS, sack him, bring back Jacques Santini and get 10 clean sheets in a row, it won't be that TS was 'wrong' because he was playing offensive football, we would have just stopped backing him and decided to back someone else.

Managers have to get things how they want in order to do well. At the moment Sherwood has said he has to get the players keeping the ball better, learning to make the attacks come in waves and playing more one touch around the box. That's a small example of something he needs to get how he wants it. AVB wanted a squad full of similar personalities, reliable types that he could trust. He probably also didn't want the highest paid player hanging around the squad not playing, and dragging down everyone's morale because of it, so he sends him away. Just because Ade is playing well now it doesn't mean AVB was wrong to do what he was doing. He wanted to play with one striker. He wanted the team to learn how to play the way he wanted to get to, and he wanted to sell Ade. He had been pragmatic last season, going to 4-4-2 and using Ade, getting on with and everything. But this season I think he decided he needed to move us towards playing the way he ultimately wanted to get us to do. It's not wrong...if we decided to back him or if things went his way, we would reap the benefits of that.

What I'm trying to say is that there are loads of forces at play which decide whether or not someone is successful, beyond the fact that someone is making the 'right' or 'wrong' tactical decision or player selection. There's AVB's forces and what he wants to do. There's what the club wants. There's what players want. There's what players are capable of doing. There's results. There's lots of things going on beyond whether it's right to play a certain player or not. There isn't really a right or wrong, it's what different parties are trying to achieve.

The other thing - I think pressing was intended against City and Liverpool but if the opposition is good or we are really rubbish then they will get round it. But there's certainly no way I would really see someone intending to play a high line with no pressing - there are no logical benefits to it and AVB's philosophy isn't to do that.

Anyway I don't really wanna talk about AVB too much. I'm delighted with Sherwood but I can imagine there'll be a lot of 'AVB should have done this' over the coming days because Sherwood is doing something else - but they are different men trying to achieve different things toward the same goal of making us successful.

I pointed out that he became more stubborn as the criticism thrown his way became more vitriolic. Both of the major points you`ve so eloquently fashioned actually support that assertion. In the first instance, fine, he wanted to sell Ade and bring someone else in, and we failed to do that for whatever reason. But once the transfer window slammed shut and everyone accepted the fact that it would not creak open again until the new year, what did AVB have to work with up front? His 26 million pound main man (Soldado), a back-up who had up until that point been slowly declining (Defoe), a tall, strong, mobile striker in need of an arm around the shoulder (Ade) and a back-up youngster (Kane). He set the team up to function with inside forwards supporting the striker and wing-backs providing the width down the touchline, but it quickly became clear that our players were really struggling to adapt to the new formation, leading to us only getting into the box rarely if at all, and mainly finding crosses curled in towards the penalty spot by our converted wingers when we did get in there.

At that point, what would have been useful? Perhaps a tall, strong, mobile striker, to get on the end of the plentiful crosses that were apparently our only way of entering the box. Yet AVB decided he wanted nothing more to do with the one man in the squad who possessed all these attributes and needed a bit of motivational management to get the best out of him, preferring to play on with the patently unsuited Soldado and Defoe, with the end result being that we looked toothless in attack for far too long.

No manager has it all his own way. No manager. The mark of a good manager is adapting to circumstances he didn't ask for and being successful despite them, because dealing with that sort of thing is a necessary fact of life at any club not owned by an oil baron or an oligarch. Yet (if your assertion is true) AVB felt he 'wasn't backed enough' and so ignored the one man who could conceivably have gotten him out of the rut he found himself in, despite everyone (pundits, fans, media) calling for his inclusion towards the end. And for what? Team harmony? Because team harmony wasn't going to be affected at all by being repeatedly called 'toothless' by the media and suffering 5-0 reverses at home without a shot on target? Morale was in the dumps anyway, towards the end. IT couldn't have hurt to put an arm around Ade and try to ease him back in to a side in need of his physical presence and aerial prowess. But no, AVB decided he hadn't been backed enough, which led to his downfall.

The same goes for the second point, really. AVB knew morale was in the dumps. He knew the players were mentally fragile, and going a goal or two down quickly would rob them of any confidence and lead to them ignoring their pressing duties while playing badly to boot. Yet he set his team up to utilise pressing and high lines anyway, with the end result being that good opposition teams we should have been a match for (Liverpool and City) got at us from the start, made us nervous and then gleefully watched as we fell away from them while maintaining our high line, leading to a simple ball over the top being enough to rip us to pieces time and again. What is that if not stubbornness?

The conclusion I can draw is that he became stubborn as things went against him, which is a shame as he did prove himself to be both tactically flexible and motivationally gifted during more stable times. But, unfortunately, that is an error he made, being stubborn, and it's one Tim is for the moment not making, so it is entirely logical to suggest that AVB could have done the things Tim did, at least in my view.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Whilst I see Scaramanga's point. Sherwood does not appear an experienced coach. I think you *need to or do) accept that you have made a pre-judgment on his abilities. And now your view is prejudiced.

No one knew much about Sherwood, other than a few people in and around Spurs who rated him; and ultimately Levy who has worked with him for some years now trusted him enough to give him the reigns of his club.


1. The team is looking greater than the sum of its parts under Sherwood than AVB. AVB lost his job because the team was not an effective unit. We just relied on individual skill in isolation - see Bale last season.

2. You just have to look at how we are playing - and base your judgment on that. Far more attacking guile. Starting to see some improved movement, the odd good pass and speed in attack.

3. Improved attitude. Half the job of a manager is be a psychologist. To get players fighting in every game. To get them motivated. To illicit a response on the field. Sherwood has asked the team to fight for each other - words used by one of our players or Sherwood recently.

4. Confidence in youth team players. Sherwoods done far more to bring through the future of the club than AVB ever did. If that does not bode well for the future I don't know what does.


It is amazing how appearance effects our beliefs and reading of things (see experiments where people taste apple juice dyed red and swear it's cherry or strawberry juice). AVB might have looked the part. But he did not deliver. You have to judge a manager on team performances and results.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I pointed out that he became more stubborn as the criticism thrown his way became more vitriolic. Both of the major points you`ve so eloquently fashioned actually support that assertion. In the first instance, fine, he wanted to sell Ade and bring someone else in, and we failed to do that for whatever reason. But once the transfer window slammed shut and everyone accepted the fact that it would not creak open again until the new year, what did AVB have to work with up front? His 26 million pound main man (Soldado), a back-up who had up until that point been slowly declining (Defoe), a tall, strong, mobile striker in need of an arm around the shoulder (Ade) and a back-up youngster (Kane). He set the team up to function with inside forwards supporting the striker and wing-backs providing the width down the touchline, but it quickly became clear that our players were really struggling to adapt to the new formation, leading to us only getting into the box rarely if at all, and mainly finding crosses curled in towards the penalty spot by our converted wingers when we did get in there.

At that point, what would have been useful? Perhaps a tall, strong, mobile striker, to get on the end of the plentiful crosses that were apparently our only way of entering the box. Yet AVB decided he wanted nothing more to do with the one man in the squad who possessed all these attributes and needed a bit of motivational management to get the best out of him, preferring to play on with the patently unsuited Soldado and Defoe, with the end result being that we looked toothless in attack for far too long.

No manager has it all his own way. No manager. The mark of a good manager is adapting to circumstances he didn't ask for and being successful despite them, because dealing with that sort of thing is a necessary fact of life at any club not owned by an oil baron or an oligarch. Yet (if your assertion is true) AVB felt he 'wasn't backed enough' and so ignored the one man who could conceivably have gotten him out of the rut he found himself in, despite everyone (pundits, fans, media) calling for his inclusion towards the end. And for what? Team harmony? Because team harmony wasn't going to be affected at all by being repeatedly called 'toothless' by the media and suffering 5-0 reverses at home without a shot on target? Morale was in the dumps anyway, towards the end. IT couldn't have hurt to put an arm around Ade and try to ease him back in to a side in need of his physical presence and aerial prowess. But no, AVB decided he hadn't been backed enough, which led to his downfall.

The same goes for the second point, really. AVB knew morale was in the dumps. He knew the players were mentally fragile, and going a goal or two down quickly would rob them of any confidence and lead to them ignoring their pressing duties while playing badly to boot. Yet he set his team up to utilise pressing and high lines anyway, with the end result being that good opposition teams we should have been a match for (Liverpool and City) got at us from the start, made us nervous and then gleefully watched as we fell away from them while maintaining our high line, leading to a simple ball over the top being enough to rip us to pieces time and again. What is that if not stubbornness?

The conclusion I can draw is that he became stubborn as things went against him, which is a shame as he did prove himself to be both tactically flexible and motivationally gifted during more stable times. But, unfortunately, that is an error he made, being stubborn, and it's one Tim is for the moment not making, so it is entirely logical to suggest that AVB could have done the things Tim did, at least in my view.

All I would say to that is AVB was trying to move us forward toward playing a certain way. Last season he was pragmatic, he did what he could with what he was given. This year, I think the feeling would be that if we are ever going to get to the point where we reap the rewards of the system he wants to implement, the time for being pragmatic and making do is over. We go with it, we take the rough with the smooth, and we work towards getting to where we want to be. There would never be a point that he decides we are suddenly going to play his system and do it successfully, having played a 4-4-2 or an entirely different style before it. We needed to start using his system if we were ever going to get good at it, so the inconsistencies for me were expected and necessary. If we had decided to go 4-4-2 again after spending 26 on Soldado, but also 30 on Lamela, 12 on Eriksen, Holtby being here, Townsend back, Lennon, Sig, Chadli in the squad, we would have been entirely unsuited to it. We signed players to play a certain system and we needed to start doing it IMO. Otherwise we'd never do it, and we'd never get good at it.

Sherwood is going great work, but AVB was trying to achieve something in another direction. Sherwood isn't on AVB's road so he can bring Ade back almost like a new signing because he's trying to achieve something else. But for what AVB wanted to get to, Ade was no longer necessary. We had signed a number of players both upfront and in behind that meant he didn't have a place any more. I don't think he's stubborn he's trying to get the system to work by having the players play it competitively. I would argue that the reason the players were broadly still ok with giving it a go under AVB was because it would be acknowledged in the squad that the heavy defeats didn't happen because the players are rubbish or because they aren't trying, but the system is forming the inconsistencies. So we're able to bounce back from heavy defeats and confidence isn't all that dented really, the players know it's not personal on them, it's the system, and if they keep following the process, hopefully they would eventually get it.

 

[Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

One thing we seem To have with our youngsters is players who pass the ball well. This is appearing if you watch QPR for Carroll, Swindon for Mason or Bentelab today. There all technically very good and that's because they have IMO natural talent clearly but technique drummed into them by the youth team coaching stuff lead by Tim at the top (not necessarily hands on)

Bentelabs stats for passing today considering we were under the cosh were great, 91% accuracy and 86% in their half accurate. That kind of passing keeps possession which means quite simply they can't score

Compare that with a French international midfielder in Capoue who had passing accuracy of 58% and 37.5% in their half!!!!

Sherwood and the coaches must be doing something right with the youngsters as they walked the league last season only to have my favourite buttplug of a play off game. And now he has got us playing decent football very very quickly.

I swear if it was Martinez doing what he has done this quickly there would be people on here offering free blowies to him!!!!!

He is far far from the finished article but so far we have seen improvement in every game.

He is bringing through youngsters from within the club too which is a big improvement and he is getting us playing football. **** his interviews... The Southampton manager still doesn't speak English in his.

Judge him in the performances in the pitch

I could have them kind of stats with 10 passes made.