Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[scaramanga]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Lol mate if you think football is this really complex thing then thats your opinion but I disagree. Many a manager has come in and try and be clever and really methodical and it just doesn't work....

Sorry, my post was a little glib. Please see the edit for a fuller response. As for being clever and methodical, that has worked for countless very successful managers all over the world. It's worked for Wenger and one or two others here but is generally resisted. See the post two below this one I'm quoting for an example of the opposition anyone openly thinking about the game will face.

 

[clownfoot]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm happy to admit that I was completely against Sherwood getting the job. Not for any personal vendetta like some posters on here seem to have, but merely because I knew nothing of his management capabilities. It is all a bit unknown at the moment, but if we carry on collecting results like we are, then I will be calling for him to be knighted. I have no shame in admitting I am a fickle football fan.

As for Scara's point about people referring to football as a simple game, I don't mind Sherwood talking to the press in a chummy, (for want of a better phrase) dumbed down manner, but I wouldn't think that necessarily indicates he doesn't know what he is doing. Nobody here has any reason to believe that neither he nor his coaching team are not as meticulous on the training ground as any other manager. Perhaps he uses the rhetoric of 'it's a simple game' to ease pressure off the players, giving them freedom and license to be more adventurous.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Lol mate if you think football is this really complex thing then thats your opinion but I disagree. Many a manager has come in and try and be clever and really methodical and it just doesn't work....

I think that Scara is referring to the amount of preparation that the tops teams put in now. You might find the following interesting

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/aug/16/manchester-city-player-statistics

http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2013/06/17/arsenals-gazidis-and-his-harvard-geniuses/

 

[Pandy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think that Scara is referring to the amount of preparation that the tops teams put in now. You might find the following interesting

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/aug/16/manchester-city-player-statistics

http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2013/06/17/arsenals-gazidis-and-his-harvard-geniuses/

Don't think the head coach should be the central figure in these sorts of things. This is what the whole DoF structure is meant to do (although I doubt Baldini has much to do with analytics behind the scenes, but someone else may take care of that) - keep this side of the club very consistent while the manager maximises the performance of the players on the pitch from day-to-day.

Both of those articles imply this statistical analysis is going on throughout Arsenal and City, and moreover throughout the footballing world.

Statistics are useless unless they are very detailed and comprehensive. But ultimately what can be gleaned from statistics can equally be learned from studying the game, the two are obviously closely related, more so if the statistics are very detailed and go some way to accounting for the context of each pass, shot, cross, run, etc.

Having a section of the football club dedicated to this sort of thing could quite easily compliment Sherwood's tactical understanding and man management, giving him a basis on which to compare and perhaps enhance his own views on the team. But ultimately, the changes enacted as a result will be very simple, even if they have some array of complex statistics behind them.

Very good post above RE Sherwood's decisions vs Man U by braineclipse demonstrates his understanding use of different players' qualities. Ultimately that is what you are looking for when you examine statistics.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Don't think the head coach should be the central figure in these sorts of things. This is what the whole DoF structure is meant to do (although I doubt Baldini has much to do with analytics behind the scenes, but someone else may take care of that) - keep this side of the club very consistent while the manager maximises the performance of the players on the pitch from day-to-day.

Both of those articles imply this statistical analysis is going on throughout Arsenal and City, and moreover throughout the footballing world.

Statistics are useless unless they are very detailed and comprehensive. But ultimately what can be gleaned from statistics can equally be learned from studying the game, the two are obviously closely related, more so if the statistics are very detailed and go some way to accounting for the context of each pass, shot, cross, run, etc.

Having a section of the football club dedicated to this sort of thing could quite easily compliment Sherwood's tactical understanding and man management, giving him a basis on which to compare and perhaps enhance his own views on the team. But ultimately, the changes enacted as a result will be very simple, even if they have some array of complex statistics behind them.

Very good post above RE Sherwood's decisions vs Man U by braineclipse demonstrates his understanding use of different players' qualities. Ultimately that is what you are looking for when you examine statistics.

I'm playing devil's advocate here slightly and second guessing what some of Scara's concerns may be. If Sherwood was a bumbling idiot then he may have trouble interpreting and applying the information on the training pitch.

 

[AdamB]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Anyone know what's happened to Siggy? Injured or out of favour?

 

[harr1984]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sorry, my post was a little glib. Please see the edit for a fuller response. As for being clever and methodical, that has worked for countless very successful managers all over the world. It's worked for Wenger and one or two others here but is generally resisted. See the post two below this one I'm quoting for an example of the opposition anyone openly thinking about the game will face.

Wenger is a prime example though, for all the nice little triangular passing and what not he's won sod all for years now, if he was a little more direct at times he should have achieved more. Look at Ferguson who is quite opposite to Wenger, and I'm not in any way knocking Wenger at all.

AVB is another prime example, trying to implement some over tactical approach and then Sherwood comes in and makes sure that more bodies are in the box and low and behold we're scoring two or three goals a game. Hardly rocket science. Football is only complicated if you make it that way....

 

[Enter the Pitbull]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sherwood ran Icon Magazine. Surely if anyone knew how to get inside the minds of footballers and how to play the media, it would be him. And as said above, these are very underrated abilities in a manager.

 

[Pandy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm playing devil's advocate here slightly and second guessing what some of Scara's concerns may be. If Sherwood was a bumbling idiot then he may have trouble interpreting and applying the information on the training pitch.

As I intimated in my earlier post, this whole 'bumbling idiot' image (if it even actually exists outside of a few fans' overactive imaginations), could easily be a facade shown only in the media gaze.

It may not be, but history tells us that managers, often the best of them, chat utter sh1t to the media. Fergie and Mourinho were excellent at it, and I feel their dominance over Wenger has a lot to do with their handling of the media and the players, not by tactical jargon, but by little soundbites and quips to get under his skin.

Now I know that isn't exactly the same thing as 'dumbing down', but it shows that the media in English football is one big game, and to bring in tactics to that game devalues you and puts you under scrutiny. It is boring and apart from a few intellectual fans who like that side of the game (a type of fan over-represented on this board), does not do well in the press, because people aren't interested in it.

The general public, and therefore the media, are more interested in soundbites and simplistic nonsense than actual hard analysis. That (nepotism aside) is why Jamie Redknapp is a perennial figure in the Sky Sports studios and James Richardson has only just got his break on a major channel having formerly hosted Italian football on 5.

There have been many reports from inside the club about Sherwood's tactical acumen and his 'ideas'. Does anyone really think these 'ideas' that won over a Levy formerly impressed by AVB's tactical abilities (what won him the job), are as simplistic as 'we should tell Soldado to run about a bit', '4-5-1 is nonsense, its all abaat 4-fackin-4-fackin-2', or 'that Maiga fella scored a banger on MOTD, sign him up guv'!?

Levy has worked with 8 (9?) managers before Sherwood, he clearly would have a benchmark for the tactical and intellectual side of the game. He is not going to appoint some sort of chump as manager of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. At the very least Sherwood will have demonstrated he is tactically able, and at best that he is some sort of Guardiolaesque messiah. Or most likely somewhere in between.. but only time will tell!

As for planning and the big picture - he was Technical Director FFS! He was in charge of the entire youth structure, its strategy, and how it fed into the first team squad! That surely is evident of ability to plan for the long term!

 

[GGyid]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

To expand a little, take the game against United.

It seemed obvious to me that Sherwood was very aware of the threat Carrick posed for example. Ade and Soldado did well to get close to him, Dembele closed him down whenever possible to help out and apart from a couple of situations Carrick wasn't allowed to be as good as he can be. Fairly basic, but a tactical decision.

Another example is the Bentaleb substitution. We were put under a fair bit of pressure at that time, Sherwood took off the more experienced defensive midfielder and put on the younger Bentaleb who's the better passer. Not the standard "pack the midfield" option, seemed to me based on the realization that sitting back to soak up the pressure wasn't going to work all that well. We had to retain possession. And for a key time in the match we did just that and the real pressure didn't start until around the 87th-88th minute. An astute, brave, tactical decision I think.

In his post match press conference Tim talked more about heart and workrate. He did mention that we weren't good enough on the ball and I appreciate that, but he didn't go into how we dealt with Carrick or why he put on Bentaleb. Is there a need for that? I don't think so. As long as solid decisions are made the slightly funny, jovial, public persona of Sherwood makes no difference.

very good post

 

[Pandy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Wenger is a prime example though, for all the nice little triangular passing and what not he's won sod all for years now, if he was a little more direct at times he should have achieved more. Look at Ferguson who is quite opposite to Wenger, and I'm not in any way knocking Wenger at all.

AVB is another prime example, trying to implement some over tactical approach and then Sherwood comes in and makes sure that more bodies are in the box and low and behold we're scoring two or three goals a game. Hardly rocket science. Football is only complicated if you make it that way....

There is obviously a balance. Fergie was a massively underrated tactician.

He switched things up in vital games and it would get his team the edge. The use of Park in big games is the most obvious example, but week-to-week he demonstrated a sound tactical knowledge IMO.

The 'attack mode' his teams would go into when chasing a game was very well rehearsed. Evra and Valencia/Rafael would become the wing-backs and the whole formation would basically shift to accomodate them as wingers when in possession, Carrick would drop deeper and start playing more high-risk long range passes to release players early and shift the ball, and combination play in key areas looked like it came straight from the training ground.

Wenger may also be a great tactician, but Fergie had both tactical and man-management abilities, and while the former gave him a good platform to build upon, it was the latter that drove these tactical decisions home and got his team to so many late wins and trophies.

Basically you are right - man-management is key to success in football. But it has to be based upon tactics. From what we've seen so far, Sherwood is demonstrating a nice balance. Still very early days though.

 

[harr1984]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

There is obviously a balance. Fergie was a massively underrated tactician.

He switched things up in vital games and it would get his team the edge. The use of Park in big games is the most obvious example, but week-to-week he demonstrated a sound tactical knowledge IMO.

The 'attack mode' his teams would go into when chasing a game was very well rehearsed. Evra and Valencia/Rafael would become the wing-backs and the whole formation would basically shift to accomodate them as wingers when in possession, Carrick would drop deeper and start playing more high-risk long range passes to release players early and shift the ball, and combination play in key areas looked like it came straight from the training ground.

Wenger may also be a great tactician, but Fergie had both tactical and man-management abilities, and while the former gave him a good platform to build upon, it was the latter that drove these tactical decisions home and got his team to so many late wins and trophies.

Basically you are right - man-management is key to success in football. But it has to be based upon tactics. From what we've seen so far, Sherwood is demonstrating a nice balance. Still very early days though.

Yeah no, I can live with that...of course tactics play a part I wouldnt want to sound dismissive of that. But a lot of managers try and overcomplicate what is in my opinion a fundamentally simple game....

 

[Grays_1890]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

My worry with Sherwood is that he has set out his stall very openly with the 4-4-2 and its worked up till now. I think teams will look into us more and work it out eventually and the test will be...do we have a plan B and C

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Sorry, my post was a little glib. Please see the edit for a fuller response. As for being clever and methodical, that has worked for countless very successful managers all over the world. It's worked for Wenger and one or two others here but is generally resisted. See the post two below this one I'm quoting for an example of the opposition anyone openly thinking about the game will face.

Tony Adams was on Goals on Sunday a few weeks ago and stated that Wenger doesn't worry about the opposition too much and concentrates on getting Arsenal playing to their strengths. His philosophy over the years has meant that their strengths are keeping the ball on the ground, working off men and moving the ball quickly to create space. It's fairly simple stuff.

From a tactical perspective on more than one occasion (IIRC) Harry out foxed him by setting us up very narrow and stopping them from playing their little 1-2s in and around the box by forcing them out wide (and Harry is apparently clueless according to many on here)

When you say clever and methodical, in what context do you mean? Analysing the opposition in great detail before every game?

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

By pretending football is simple he immediately gets the media on his side as journalists like to think they're smarter than the rest of us. Going 4-4-2 with two wingers that lob crosses into the box wins over a certain element of our, or any other club's, fanbase. Was it Townsend getting injured that forced the return of the wonky or does actually he fancy 4-3-3? Who knows.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Football is incredibly simple

Its 11 vs 11 kicking a bag of leather around some grass

Players are not paid to be intelligent, there paid to play the game to the best of their abilities.

Where it gets complicated is when players abilities get challenged by putting them in situations and positions there not familiar with or capable of to suit a system.

You wouldn't out a secretary in the It dept would you, but in football terms you can put a centre forward at left midfield if its quits the tactics.

Fergie was known to be not very tactual and left that to his coaches. You only need to se Louis Sahas comments on Fergie as the man most likely to wing it

Wenger as highlighted above sticks to his teams strengths and that can be his downfall sometimes.

What you need is a clear system that works throughout the club so that you can play players in positions their comfortable and familiar with and therefore have the tools to do their job. You can see that at Arsenal in abundance in my opinion as they stick to a style and philosophy that they are all familiar with.

What we have is a pool of some high quality footballers who were being challenged to play in roles that some of them were clearly not comfortable with at the time (new league, new team etc..) and what we didn't have was time for them to get that familiarity. Sherwood has made the game simpler for the team whilst tweaking it game by game to get the best players on the pitch doing their job. Its the tweaks that are difficult to get right but the game itself is reactively simple

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Football is incredibly simple

Its 11 vs 11 kicking a bag of leather around some grass

Players are not paid to be intelligent, there paid to play the game to the best of their abilities.

Where it gets complicated is when players abilities get challenged by putting them in situations and positions there not familiar with or capable of to suit a system.

You wouldn't out a secretary in the It dept would you, but in football terms you can put a centre forward at left midfield if its quits the tactics.

Fergie was known to be not very tactual and left that to his coaches. You only need to se Louis Sahas comments on Fergie as the man most likely to wing it

Wenger as highlighted above sticks to his teams strengths and that can be his downfall sometimes.

What you need is a clear system that works throughout the club so that you can play players in positions their comfortable and familiar with and therefore have the tools to do their job. You can see that at Arsenal in abundance in my opinion as they stick to a style and philosophy that they are all familiar with.

What we have is a pool of some high quality footballers who were being challenged to play in roles that some of them were clearly not comfortable with at the time (new league, new team etc..) and what we didn't have was time for them to get that familiarity. Sherwood has made the game simpler for the team whilst tweaking it game by game to get the best players on the pitch doing their job. Its the tweaks that are difficult to get right but the game itself is reactively simple

Good post.

I think the current improvement in performance may be as much to do with 'freeing' the players of their duties that AVB enforced on them and them actually enjoying their football again as it has to do with Sherwood. In the next few weeks we will really see what he is made of, and come the end of the season there should be enough evidence there to make a decision. Although as pointed out by BoL, he was pretty tactically sound against United.

I will say one thing, if there is anyone I would like to take the club forward and have a 'vision' for us, its someone who knows the youth set-up, and the youth players inside-out, and the evidence so far seems to support that Sherwood does.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

See b)

In all seriousness though, that's a bit of a silly statement.

String Theory is fundamentally simple. Fermat's Last Theorem is fundamentally simple. Understanding and properly utilising complex things are not so simple.

Do we understand and contextualise Sherwood's comments re football being simple? He hasn't said running a club is simple by the way. And great attention to detail all over the club will be key to any Managers success, including on the field.

But when you come into a club mid season, with games coming think and fast, the premise that in essence football tactics and instructions can be simple, is no bad thing. Players need to know their role and they shouldn't need a PHD to understand an overly complex setup. First and foremost do the simple things well. Then get onto the more detailed, complex aspects after.

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

If it's so simple, why are there so many crap managers?

It is all about getting value for your money in the transfer market. No more Bents or Bentleys, but young, perhaps undervalued players that are likely to both improve on the pitch and increase in value. It appears we have little left over after paying wages and other expenses, so we need assets to trade in to fund further investments.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

My worry with Sherwood is that he has set out his stall very openly with the 4-4-2 and its worked up till now. I think teams will look into us more and work it out eventually and the test will be...do we have a plan B and C

I'll guess that we will begin to find out now that the number of games slows down a little for a while. It made sense to keep it simple during the Christmas period and whilst the players were finding their confidence and getting used to him and the new coaching staff. Sherwood's U21s team and the youth set up didn't/don't play 4-4-2, so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw it develop/change over time.