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Ratings vs Liverpool

Meh. He prayed on his own against Arsenal, and it both looked like he cared, and it worked; Walcott got nothing out of him. Sure, he probably doesn't buy into the whole enthusiasm thing, but whatever floats his boat.

Performances like the one today, however, are not acceptable.

Exactly. The problem with with players like BAE and Berbatov, laid back and relaxed is that when they're playing well, they look like geniuses and when they play poorly, they look like they don't give a fudge. The reality is there is probably no difference in BAE's desire this week and last but the performances were different.

I think it is a) presumptuous to say we have a winning mentality, that is bred over seasons and with actually winning trophies and b) harsh to say BAE doesn't buy into it.
 
I think we have had one foot in it at least, and would have really put some pressure on City. Some of their fans I though were getting quite edgy about us, until I read out our run-in to them.
In all fairness, 2nd or 3rd have never been my target. It is still all about finishing 4th in my book, thats why we badly needed the win last week.
Of the two games(Arsenal/Liverpool) we won the one that really had to, to put us in with a shout. We are back in a dogfight now, as expected, and its all about the team showing character to bounce back next weekend.

Arsenal will always have a game in hand now until April 16th IIRC, but its no gimme 3pts at home v Everton, as we will find for ourselves. We still need a few favours from other teams.
Chelsea still in the EL and FA Cup could be a big help to us. I dont anticipate getting any points from the game there,but if they start to get a back-log of fixtures we might snatch a massive point

I'm of the same opinion as you. We are gunning for 4th, not 2nd or 3rd.

There are always turning points in the season and this I pray is not one of them. The Fulham match now takes on a season defining significance in my mind. I guess some might find that overly dramatic, but this team is where it is because we are playing at a level above our pay grade, and also Bales influence. To me it wouldn't take a lot to derail our season. Loosing versus Liverpool was disappointing but winning the Fulham match will show it as a blip or a trend.
 
gunning for 4th? i don't think so guys - that may be the most likely outcome but i can't see anyone at the club having that as our target at this point of the season
 
gunning for 4th? i don't think so guys - that may be the most likely outcome but i can't see anyone at the club having that as our target at this point of the season

That was a bad turn of phrase. I'm sure the club are targeting higher but realistically I think 4th would be a successful season considering the churn at the start of it. 3rd I just think is a little beyond us but you never know I suppose.
 
to be honest if we cut out the individual mistakes there's no reason we can't expect something from Chelsea away if we play like we did at times today, i fancy us to get 3 points from City as well so 3rd is still well on the cards imv - of course we are no longer in the driving seat but there's a long way to go
 
to be honest if we cut out the individual mistakes there's no reason we can't expect something from Chelsea away if we play like we did at times today, i fancy us to get 3 points from City as well so 3rd is still well on the cards imv - of course we are no longer in the driving seat but there's a long way to go

We have a good run of form but lets not get carried away.

We'll play for 4th with Arsenal until the last day of the season.
 
^ carried away??

i can forgive not beating United at home but as a 'top 4' side we should be looking at anything less than a win at home as points dropped no matter the opposition

and right now we are in the fight for 3rd with Chelsea and Arsenal, no reason to think Chelsea will be pulling away from either of us any time soon so that is our target.
 
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gunning for 4th? i don't think so guys - that may be the most likely outcome but i can't see anyone at the club having that as our target at this point of the season

I'm sure they wont Bill, and rightly so. But I think its only natural the majority of fans will set their sights lower, especially this Clubs, we've set ourselves up for a fall too many times in the past, well certainly the older ones like me
 
I expected 6th at the start of the season, so 4th would make me a happy yid tbh :) Especially if it's at Arse and Liverpool's expense, since they're the ones that probably need CL money the most.

***

I don't think this was a turning point at all, though we'll have to wait and see of course. Despite being a neurotic at the best of times, I actually have a very different feeling from last season this time around. Last season it felt like we had "it" - a kind of glow, the whole team on one golden wavelength - for most of the first two-thirds of the season and that meant we could destroy teams from time to time as it all clicked . . . but the problem was that once we fumbled "it", we just couldn't get it back. We fell out of sync and nobody knew how to get back on sync. A good part of that I think is because the fundamental fount of "it" was intuition and emotion and confidence, and you can't just graft or think your way into that. You can't just say, "come on guys, we have to believe in ourselves!" and then everyone in the team: 1) knows how to believe in himself ==> 2) actually does believe in himself.

(Aand this is not, btw, to shortchange Harry into a simple-minded man-manager - just noting that his style was to select a palette of ingredients and let the dish speak for itself, rather than actively craft a recipe and chop and season and cook).

What's different for me this time around is that we're actually not floating on emotion. We haven't clicked for the entire season; instead we have gotten results by working our arses off in attempt after attempt to execute a certain system. Usually these attempts have been pretty damn clumsy, as you'd expect ... individual players oftentimes couldn't quite figure out and execute their 'situations' (refer to that Mind Games article) optimally, which is par for the course when the new things you're learning haven't been engrained in you yet so you have to *think* during the game.... hence, slow, disjointed, confused performances. We're not playing by our inner ear anymore; now we try to exert conscious control over our actions in a game. The negative I think is that this will look terrible at times, like watching a newborn foal trying desperately to get to its feet, but the payoff - if we can get this engrained in us - could be HUGE.

The critical thing is that each time, we are getting a little better. Each time, individual players have a set of tangible 'things I want to do this game', and they can measure their progress according to those tangible criteria as well as the powerful swell of victory or defeat. We don't need to grapple for an elusive emotion; what we need is to learn, practice, and execute a tangible system that in the end is made up of fairly basic components parts. We can actually work towards this on the training ground and on the pitch. We won't execute it perfectly, we will be hit by setbacks - but we can make small improvements that accumulate over time, because: 1) we know what we want to do (we have real, tangible objectives) and 2) we actually have a usable guide to follow under our coaches.

I don't mean to shortchange the importance of mentality and confidence, it's just that mentality is one of those iffy unquantifiable things that everyone knows is good and important but you can't actually construct an actionable plan to get it. You can see a sports psychologist for weeks and weeks, but it might mean nothing if you end up choking, as we have all too often (I should know - played piano competitively for years, only to fudge it up in the finals every time! :lol:). But what you *can* do if you're choking and panicking in your head and the blood is roaring in your ears is 'fall back to basics'. Fall back to what you remember doing in training. Fall back to the simple pass, fall back to adjusting your position. You don't need any sort of mental flow for this, in fact the conscious thinking and concentration that triggers choking may even be better here.

That's why I believe this was a blip, not a trend. It is normal for any team trying to grasp new coaching to suffer clumsy setbacks from time to time. However, if you are working hard on the tangible things, eventually the progress is going to start to show in bits and pieces. If you are relying on talent and confidence rather than working towards a tangible gameplan, then there's little you can do in training after a terrible defeat beyond a pat on the back and gallant speeches. But ultimately, I think those words are emptier than the ones you take in with your feet.
 
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Lloris 5- Stupid stupid pass from Walker but if he's going to come out and try to claim it, he needs to make sure he gets there.

Walker 4- Regardless of how else he played, his mistake cost us the game. 2-1, we're comfortable, passing it around well, Liverpool look a bit deflated and the tired legs that would set in later on wouldn't have been as much of an issue. Such a stupid stupid mistake to make. Annoying because otherwise he was good. But in the end, the rest is pointless when your mistake effectively lost us the game.
Dawson 6- Decent.
Vertonghen 8.5- Outstanding.
Ekotto 5. Needed more of an attacking contribution from him. Stupid challenge.

Dembele 7.5. Good in the first half, not as obvious in the second. Should have been in the middle.
Livermore 5. Barely noticed him tbh
Parker 6. Release the ball quicker please.
Sigurdsson 6. Hit the post. A couple of good runs. Should have scored early on.

Bale 7. 2 great assists. 1 great run. Otherwise relatively quiet.

Defoe 5. Pretty anonymous up front (though a lot of it down to poor service). Blasted it when he did get it. And then came back to 'help out' and made another stupid individual mistake.

agree with these ratings and comments. The fact our strikers are all brick at the moment is really really distressing. Overall thoug, thought we played quite well and deserved at least a draw
 
What does a defender have to do to get a 9 or a 10?

Maybe if Vertonghen had blocked Downing' shot on the line (or stopped him getting his shot off in the first place by closing him down after Lloris fluffed his clearance) he might've got a 9 or 10 but unfortunately he got nutmegged and the momentum swung Liverpool' way.
 
I don't think AVB picked the right team - I don't like Parker and Livermore in the centre, they just are not good enough when in possession.

So eventually things stop clicking, you cede possession, the other team gets more into it subtly and you don't play well.

It would have been braver to play Carroll and Parker so you have one passer and one fighter but I think AVB wanted the strength and height of Livermore.

I don't think Livermore's strength is an asset - he often fouls players rather than jockeying them away from danger.



The most sensible formation would have been for Townsend to stay at Spurs and replace Lennon, as he played really well yesterday... on loan
 
I don't think AVB picked the right team - I don't like Parker and Livermore in the centre, they just are not good enough when in possession.

So eventually things stop clicking, you cede possession, the other team gets more into it subtly and you don't play well.

It would have been braver to play Carroll and Parker so you have one passer and one fighter but I think AVB wanted the strength and height of Livermore.

I don't think Livermore's strength is an asset - he often fouls players rather than jockeying them away from danger.



The most sensible formation would have been for Townsend to stay at Spurs and replace Lennon, as he played really well yesterday... on loan

last year people slated Harry for changing around a number of positions because either Lennon or Bale got injured... this was very similiar.

All AVB had to do in my view was play Holtby on the right and keep the same team that beat Arse. The first half hour were atrocious but we improved until walkers error.

I am gutted so gutted because they didnt win that - we gave it away. We didnt even lose it. We gave them three points a win.
 
Vertonghen and Dembele were a class above everyone else.

Defoe was shocking today and Livermore is so frustrating to watch. How many of his passes today were backwards? I remember one instance in the second half where he had 15 yards of free space in front of him but instead of turning and dribbling or passing upfield he turned back into trouble because he was so determined to pass towards our own goal and passed the ball right to a Liverpool player.
 
I expected 6th at the start of the season, so 4th would make me a happy yid tbh :) Especially if it's at Arse and Liverpool's expense, since they're the ones that probably need CL money the most.

***

I don't think this was a turning point at all, though we'll have to wait and see of course. Despite being a neurotic at the best of times, I actually have a very different feeling from last season this time around. Last season it felt like we had "it" - a kind of glow, the whole team on one golden wavelength - for most of the first two-thirds of the season and that meant we could destroy teams from time to time as it all clicked . . . but the problem was that once we fumbled "it", we just couldn't get it back. We fell out of sync and nobody knew how to get back on sync. A good part of that I think is because the fundamental fount of "it" was intuition and emotion and confidence, and you can't just graft or think your way into that. You can't just say, "come on guys, we have to believe in ourselves!" and then everyone in the team: 1) knows how to believe in himself ==> 2) actually does believe in himself.

(Aand this is not, btw, to shortchange Harry into a simple-minded man-manager - just noting that his style was to select a palette of ingredients and let the dish speak for itself, rather than actively craft a recipe and chop and season and cook).

What's different for me this time around is that we're actually not floating on emotion. We haven't clicked for the entire season; instead we have gotten results by working our arses off in attempt after attempt to execute a certain system. Usually these attempts have been pretty damn clumsy, as you'd expect ... individual players oftentimes couldn't quite figure out and execute their 'situations' (refer to that Mind Games article) optimally, which is par for the course when the new things you're learning haven't been engrained in you yet so you have to *think* during the game.... hence, slow, disjointed, confused performances. We're not playing by our inner ear anymore; now we try to exert conscious control over our actions in a game. The negative I think is that this will look terrible at times, like watching a newborn foal trying desperately to get to its feet, but the payoff - if we can get this engrained in us - could be HUGE.

The critical thing is that each time, we are getting a little better. Each time, individual players have a set of tangible 'things I want to do this game', and they can measure their progress according to those tangible criteria as well as the powerful swell of victory or defeat. We don't need to grapple for an elusive emotion; what we need is to learn, practice, and execute a tangible system that in the end is made up of fairly basic components parts. We can actually work towards this on the training ground and on the pitch. We won't execute it perfectly, we will be hit by setbacks - but we can make small improvements that accumulate over time, because: 1) we know what we want to do (we have real, tangible objectives) and 2) we actually have a usable guide to follow under our coaches.

I don't mean to shortchange the importance of mentality and confidence, it's just that mentality is one of those iffy unquantifiable things that everyone knows is good and important but you can't actually construct an actionable plan to get it. You can see a sports psychologist for weeks and weeks, but it might mean nothing if you end up choking, as we have all too often (I should know - played piano competitively for years, only to fudge it up in the finals every time! :lol:). But what you *can* do if you're choking and panicking in your head and the blood is roaring in your ears is 'fall back to basics'. Fall back to what you remember doing in training. Fall back to the simple pass, fall back to adjusting your position. You don't need any sort of mental flow for this, in fact the conscious thinking and concentration that triggers choking may even be better here.

That's why I believe this was a blip, not a trend. It is normal for any team trying to grasp new coaching to suffer clumsy setbacks from time to time. However, if you are working hard on the tangible things, eventually the progress is going to start to show in bits and pieces. If you are relying on talent and confidence rather than working towards a tangible gameplan, then there's little you can do in training after a terrible defeat beyond a pat on the back and gallant speeches. But ultimately, I think those words are emptier than the ones you take in with your feet.

Good post, sums it up well.
 
I think a midfield three of Parker, Holtby, and Dembele would've been useful in giving us both control and attacking cohesion. Carroll still gets knocked off the ball a little easily when pressed from what I've seen this season, which is worrying against an aggressive pressing side like Liverpool; I'd rather see him start his first full game at home. Holtby is a little stronger with more engine room, while being a "nimble passer" type also.

I'm not sure why Livermore was chosen over Holtby. My guess is that Holtby's first touch and positional sense have gone haywire of late because he's put so much pressure on himself to impress, and AVB didn't think he was calmed down enough for this occasion (unlike big Jake, whose face never seems to twitch). In the end even though I tend to place a huge onus on the midfield to protect the backline, I don't think our midfield lost us that game - for that we can look to stupid individual errors, particularly by the FBs, and the gaping black hole that is our "striker" position. You're not going to dominate anyone with 10 men.

I don't like Bale as a no. 10 either, considering his style is so different from a Mata or Silva while his crossing is a standout asset. I don't think Townsend even as back-up is the answer, since his decision-making in the final third is equally as stupid as our other players. It's not really directness and enthusiasm we're lacking, what we need - ideally - is cleverness and creativity and a perfect first touch from our striker and one of the AMs (ie. a genuine playmaker). I don't mean that Siggy or Lennon aren't doing well (in fact both are contributing *substantially* right now), just that they are not particularly visionary or sharp-turning or eloquent in the tight spaces, and I think that subtlety is necessary to balance out Bale's directness.
 
Maybe if Vertonghen had blocked Downing' shot on the line (or stopped him getting his shot off in the first place by closing him down after Lloris fluffed his clearance) he might've got a 9 or 10 but unfortunately he got nutmegged and the momentum swung Liverpool' way.

Honestly think Verts did poorly for that second goal. Should have stayed and put pressure on Downing rather than pull the John Terry glory goal line save move. If Verts had just crumbed the pack when Lloris fluffed it, he could have cleared it with ease.
 
While I agree Dembele was our best player, I think he would be more effective in the middle. And I think Holtby would have done alot better than Livermore.

But yes I over reacted on the AVB thing. I still love him.
I love what AVB has done this season but the team's flow hasn't been what it could be in the league. Today it was a major mistake to concede the wide play to LFC. Bale had to move out to the left with Lennon out to help with a sutiable outlet, get Bale more touches, and open up LFC. GS right, Bale left and MD in the hole. That would have brought JD GS and GB much more into the game. We almost won with absolutely no forward play. Bale 1st assist was wing play 2nd dead ball.
Hugo 6 poorest game with us but was left out twice by Walker
Walker 3 - boy needs to be more positionally aware. too many time he falls asleep after allowing someone to get inside of him and then reacts (cue great saving tackle)
Dawson 7 solid
Super Jan 8
BAE 5 needed to be a bit calmer
SP/JL 6
MD 8 surprised me how well he did out wide. Yet could have pull more people in in the middle.
SG 5 - drifted out of the game
GB - 6 getting a bit happy to let the game come to him
JD - 3
 
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