metalgear
Nayim
we've got a high tech stadium and it seems like a good thing to help coaches have more eyes on players.
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Nuno Espírito Santo - Sacked
- Thread starter Denmark Spur
- Start date
Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
This was at the training ground
It wasn’t a sports CCTV set up
It was a conventional state of the art CCTV set up for recording training
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
Thing is mate, it has been discussed so many times from so many angles. The meeting point is clear -Poch was very frustrated at repeatedly not being listened to, Levy was working furiously to get the stadium finished, plus the overrun had a massive effect on morale. I always said I felt Poch's book was a big mistake, and did him no favours at all, there again we needed to back him for one more rebuild IMO. Fergie has discontent in his squad at times and he simply moved them on (Beckham, Stam, Keane, etc)...
Nuno's discreet strength and honesty is massive.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
This is absolutely right. He knew we were right there and needed to cross the line, thus he was examining many ideas, including how he could improve himself...
JerusalemMan
Johnny Morrison
Let's hope so. But I feel it's a bit early to properly judge that. There's a danger of getting a bit too hagiographical just because of the bag of chips on your shoulder about his predecessor!
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Absolutely this. I've had a lot of time to look back at those glorious years these past couple of seasons, and the one thing that struck me more than anything else was how much it felt like we were learning how to do it all in real-time, together.
Not just Poch - the team, the club, the fans, *everyone*.
I don't know if anyone here's a fan of the magnificent Away Days videos that Dan Louw used to put up on Youtube between about the first time we got into the CL in 2010 and about the time we crashed out of the EL to Fiorentina in Poch's first season in 2014/2015. Covering the tenures of Harry, AVB and Sherwood. I used to absolutely love those videos - still go back to them from time to time, because they're almost time capsules of the Tottenham Hotspur that was, back then.
And if you watch those, one of the main themes that pops up again and again is how ephemeral it all was - you had to take your happiness, your schadenfreude and your laughs when you could, because at the end of the day, the disappointment inherent in being Spurs was always going to come up and smack you over the head. And back then, the disappointment was very real - of being a perpetual Europa League team (and occasionally worse), that never won anything and failed at the death.
When Poch arrived, that was the team we were - a Europa League side with aspirations of more, having tasted the heights, but constantly wary of the certainty of being let down at the death. And then, over five glorious years, literally everything changed. By 2016, we had gone from desperately wanting to squeak into the CL to being bitterly disappointed that the CL was all we could console ourselves with. By 2017, we were just disappointed at finishing 2nd, having blown everyone else away time and again in a phenomenal year. By 2018, we were disappointed that we could beat Real Madrid in the group stage of the CL but lose to Juventus. By 2019, it was that we hadn't won the CL.
In those short years, we went from dogbrick Europa League grounds to the pinnacle of the club game - and everyone had to learn how to behave at that rarefied atmosphere that we had *never* experienced. The players and the club had to grow from being pugnacious outsiders to being considered a scalp, one of the big boys with a giant stadium on the way. The fans had to learn how to conduct ourselves at a time when every year saw us do wonderful, brilliant things, breaking every mental barrier and taboo we had except (perhaps) the biggest of all.
And Poch had to learn - the formula that propelled us into those glory years, of being the hard-running, young, fit underdogs who all *believed* in the plan, in Poch, and in each other...that worked until we were at the top and needed to figure out how to play with arrogance, to beat teams without exerting ourselves, to demand excellence every day, to do things *expecting* to win.
You're right - it became clear to Poch that he needed to go from coach to manager, like Ferguson did. He needed to distance himself from the players, become less of a father figure and more of a leader, and to change the approach to be less intense, more tactical, more controlled. He tried, but at some point (between 2018 and 2019), I think he realized he couldn't do that with this group of players - they'd gone through the same learning journey he had, and that had created a relationship he couldn't just sever in a move to a more aloof model of management.
And it also became clear to him that the other man who needed to learn how to behave like a true winner...didn't. I refer, of course, to Daniel Levy. At just the time when we needed to start investing to become the club Poch had propelled us towards, Daniel Levy grew distracted by a bunch of different things, and then regressed into his basic form - a small-time, penny-pinching, habitually cautious man who let opportunity slip away from him.
It was an evolution both men needed, but only one man tried to implement. And he needed the other man to support him in rebuilding ourselves to a new operational model that befitted our status, with the new players to match - and that support never came.
The sad thing is, since then, that trend has continued. The one man, Poch, has continued to learn in his evolution from coach to manager - he joined PSG, and he now has a stable of massive superstars that means that he *cannot* be the coach he once was with us. Messi won't press like a young lad, Neymar won't chase people down to prove himself, Ramos won't let Poch lead the team if he doesn't agree with what's being said. So Poch *has* to be more aloof, more of a manager, trusting his players to figure out the details, solve in-game situations and maintain squad morale amongst themselves.
But Levy - has he learned how to conduct himself as befits a chairman of a 'big' club that belongs, or wants to belong, in the CL? I don't think he has, not yet. He has absolutely tried to strike out in random directions, like hiring Mourinho and now Paratici, who *have* operated regularly at that level. But it still feels random, and on the cheap - and of course, Mourinho ended up an unparalleled disaster. But I can't blame Levy for that - he tried, but it's more on him for just being limited in how much he's really learned about operating as a top club does.
And against that limitation, we won't grow to become the club Poch once dreamed we could be - not until Levy learns how to act at the rarefied level where the opportunity cost of not acting because you want to save 50 pence is far greater than when you're an upper mid-table EL hopeful. And the way to do that is basically the same thing Poch had to do with the players - step back. Go away, stop being hands on, let Paratici run the player acquisitions, and let him spend what we need to - judging him on our success or failure accordingly.
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Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
He wanted to improve himself by stepping back from his coaching role to being the manager
Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
So didn’t we have a record breaking summer in transfer spend in 2019? As in we backed the manager with a record spend on players that we couldn’t before (because of the ground) and we haven’t since due to lack of CL money and COVID
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
And, to be fair to Nuno, he's a bit of a middle ground, all things considered, when compared to Poch. By all accounts, he's not the warmest guy in person - he's fairly blunt, and constantly thinking about the game to the point where he apparently looks distracted all the time. He's a bit more hands-off and professional in terms of how much he expects of the lads and how much he's there for them in comparison to how Poch used to be in his early years.
But, at the same time, he's honest, he's humble, and he cares about his lads. He's been cited as a father figure more than once, and I have no reason to disbelieve that. And, as mentioned, it seems to me he really understands the importance of having a relationship with the fans and the wider community at the clubs he manages - his origins as a poor kid from Sao Tome really seem to have grounded him that sense, and it's good to see.
Having gone from one extreme in Poch to the other extreme in the git that succeeded him, Nuno seems like a good middle ground to arrive at. And my hope is, that kind of slow evolution is what these lads need right now - more warmth and care than Mourinho had, but also a more professional relationship than was the case (naturally) under Poch.
But, at the same time, he's honest, he's humble, and he cares about his lads. He's been cited as a father figure more than once, and I have no reason to disbelieve that. And, as mentioned, it seems to me he really understands the importance of having a relationship with the fans and the wider community at the clubs he manages - his origins as a poor kid from Sao Tome really seem to have grounded him that sense, and it's good to see.
Having gone from one extreme in Poch to the other extreme in the git that succeeded him, Nuno seems like a good middle ground to arrive at. And my hope is, that kind of slow evolution is what these lads need right now - more warmth and care than Mourinho had, but also a more professional relationship than was the case (naturally) under Poch.
Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
Nuno is currently where Poch wanted to be relationship wise
Nuno used to coke and watch us train too under Poch don’t forget. They are friends I assume
Pochs walking on hot coals technique can work with some players as demonstrated at Southampton
He did something different at Spurs and needed time on his next phase (which he wasn’t given)
PSG now for him is kinda alien and I think gonna be boring for him. It’s managing egos and personalities more than tactical set ups and coaching, but it will make him more rounded as a manager
Watch this video of man utd then apply to spurs. You might understand why levy has to be careful with what we spend. The banks wouldn't lend the money to arsenal unless wenger signed a 5 year contract.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Record-breaking by our notoriously parsimonious standards, sure. But it wasn't enough, not by a long shot. We made a crapton in revenue that year from the CL run and its secondary effects - and we had spent absolutely nothing for 18 months beforehand, also absolutely record-breaking in its own right.
What Poch wanted was a total rebuild - players out, players in. I have no doubt he wanted Eriksen sold, Toby sold, and that money reinvested into more new players than he eventually got - and top-class players, not speculative punts.
Levy went halfway - spent some of the money Poch had earned him with his CL exploits, and hoped that would work in terms of fixing the side. It didn't. Part of it was also just bad luck, but ultimately, it was Levy trying to bridge his past as a fairly middling penny-pinching type with what was needed at that time in 2019 - a total overhaul.
And like a lot of decisions taken half-heartedly, it fell through disastrously, and ended up being a lot more expensive because he lost CL revenue, he lost Poch, he tried to hire Mourinho to rescue the situation, and then Mourinho burnt everything down while COVID further devastated our revenue.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Totally agree with that. I just hope PSG is boring enough for him that one day, he hears the calls of home and comes back. Hopefully after winning the lot.
Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
But Poch didnt want to sell Moura to Napoli for £40m
We didn’t have an offer for eriksen that I’ve ever heard of
We also had no offers for Toby even at the then bargain £25m
And I know the 18 months before also coincided with Poch turning down the players we could afford to get him at the time or we missed out on players like Grealish because the goal posts moved
Now we have a DOF in place, the coach doesn’t really have that say. He focuses on his key role which with a club of our scale is massive enough
Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
I think Nuno is gonna do more things here than a lot believeTotally agree with that. I just hope PSG is boring enough for him that one day, he hears the calls of home and comes back. Hopefully after winning the lot.
I could dig back and see about 2 years ago people saying in here that they would live Nuno to take over if Poch went.
Nuno stock was low this summer but he is better suited for us than most we wanted IMO and he also came with some cracking coaches too which we will see more benefit of, over time
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
We didn't have an offer for Eriksen at the price we wanted, which I think was 100m (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tottenham-place-100m-price-tag-on-christian-eriksen-jdzrmqpk2) for a player with one year left on his deal. We ended up selling him for, what, 20m in January?
Likewise, if we didn't get Toby out at 25m, I suspect Poch would have wanted him out at 20m - like with his initial wave of sales in 2014 or 2015, the priority was change, not recouping our costs (which we would have done even if we had sold Toby at 20m - I think we bought him for about 11m).
I imagine that, having only bought Lucas in January 2018, he wasn't on the list of folks Poch wanted gone. And as for Poch turning players down, I suspect he wanted good, established players, and got offered cheap young punts or prospects (as Tielemans and Maddison were at the time, the two players other than Grealish I remember being linked). Again, part of the evolution - I think he wanted to move to a more professional, elite model than just building young teams all the time.
I agree - with the DoF now in place, the coach is very specifically the 'coach', not the manager. But tbh, I think the one man I'd have trusted with that manager role would have been Poch anyway.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
I'm not making any predictions on that yet, despite the good start. But, even if you're right, it won't change the fact that I want Poch back at the club, whenever that happens. I still think he could be our Ferguson - and he simply understood and felt us as a club, in a way no other manager in our lifetime has.
If Nuno smashes it, fantastic - he can stay as long as he likes. And if he builds a connection with us like Poch did, even better, imo. But when he does eventually leave, Poch'll still be the one I root for, every time.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
You write so incredibly well, and I think your analysis of a lot of what happened in the club post 2019 is spot on.
What I will say though, is that I think we do seem to be operating like the kind of the club I hoped we would post stadium build, and that some of the people ‘pro’ Levy, eg Billy, argued over the summer. Signings like Emerson, Romero, Reguillon, Bergwijn, these are young, but very high quality signings. So I think we are working for a plan that really works, and spending smartly. I also think we are able to pick off some weaker financial positions in other clubs because we are run sustainably, and that is to Levy’s credit.
I think Romero, for example is a definite step up in signing from a Rodon. As is Emerson versus say, Foyth (when he joined). Gil versus Clarke? I think all over the park we are making the best signings I can realistically hope is to make under ENIC, which is some of the very best prospects in their position in Europe. If we do that, we’ll be there or there abouts at the top of the league at some point. And if we do that, I will say I don’t think Levy is being cheap, and is actually playing well with the new financial position we have post stadium.
and this is coming from me, someone that had very, very serious doubts about Levy 2 months ago.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
Frankly, it would be hard not to be a tad hagiographic about NES given what he’s managed to turn around. However I find your proposed example curious. I think it is beyond dispute to this point, he has been discreet, strong and honest. I’d concede that ‘honesty’ is an arbitrary quality given only he himself would know, but his manner suggests to me he is generally an honest man.
The chip bag you speak of for said-predecessor was earned by said-predecessor. I won’t be apologizing soon for disliking him intensely.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
Right, but this fact probably highlights the biggest issue of all; why give him the money only to sack him a few months later? It makes literally no sense, unless he was seduced by an amour he’d always dreamt of, an amour who promised him the sort of nights that only fantasies deliver…
One thing we will never know is how much Pochettino knew of Mourinho’s courting dances. It was obvious to me. I suspect it was obvious to many, because suddenly there he was, a frequent guest at the new Lane…I have to imagine that didn’t exactly contribute to a positive vibe around the place.
Still, let’s keep this on-track and moving forwards. Nuno knew from the get-go he was not the first choice, but I am pretty sure it did not worry him one bit.