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Nuno Espírito Santo - Sacked

@DubaiSpur ... when he gets ranting about Levy ... way over the top.
Agreed, I cannot stand these digs at our club all the time, constantly sniping and chipping away at Tottenham Hotspur, agonising to read these anti-Levy diatribes over and over.
I think I have read about 57 so far and no doubt more are on the way. Jesus Christ.
 
If I could like this more than once I would.
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People like @DubaiSpur who I like as a poster when he is not talking about Levy. Have absolutely no idea what's going on at the club, yet build a narrative to suit their agenda.

I loved poch and think he deserved a year regardless of results (baring a relegation battle), I absolutely would not have sacked him when Levy did. But a lot of the criticism leveled at Levy under poch's tenure is completely unfounded. The infamous 18 months of no signings is down to poch not Levy (and I was told that by someone who knew Levy at that time).

Also Levy is getting the blame for NOT selling Ericksen and Toby... how does that work? When the manager was still very reliant on them and rejected replacements that turned out to be good (ie telemanns).


There is more, but I will end with this:

We have had 20 years of unprecedented growth on and off the pitch with Levy. The changing of our expectations is down to his success.

Yet some call him small time and penny pinching, that's incredibly insulting. I find it hard to believe that at least part of that is not an antisemitic thought processes.

If Nuno is a success and meets or betters poch's achievements will those people give Levy credit? Or will he be lucky again... like he was with Poch... and Harry ... and Jol?

If the investments in young players Gill, SARR and royal, pay off will he get praise... or will he be luck again, like Berbatov, Bale, Modric?

I don't want to pick an argument as I certainly agree that Levy does not get the credit for the great work he has done. I do feel criticisms of what he didn't do at certain times are very, very valid, however it is important to remember that ENIC dictate the agenda not solely him. I still cannot think of another chairman anywhere who could've got that stadium built; it is an enormous legacy.

However, and this has been discussed many times, the signing/not signing thing is NOT binary. First of all, in order to even get to the 18 month thing, it is worth looking at the 16/17 window. In one month -June 2016- Pochettino failed to get not one, but two of his stated targets in WInaldjum and Mane. We instead spent money on Sissoko, N’Koudou and Janssen. We did not have much money at the time due to the stadium commitment, that is understood, but one of those players he wanted versus the three that came in might've been a huge difference.

Nothing about that 18 months in binary. Levy would've spent money, yes, but on players who were not the manager's top targets. The manager thus felt it was better to hold the money rather than just spend on players he didn't feel would improve his squad (especially given our failure to move outgoings). Tielemanns has been brought up countless times, but is he at a title-winning club? We might like him, but the manager didn't want him. The Toby situation has been much discussed also, ditto Eriksen.

I think looking forward, Levy's biggest and best move was recognizing that we needed to change out direction last April, more specifically that we needed a Director of Football. Thus far, I feel he has largely left him to do his business (Kane being the exception). With Nuno's appt, it feels like all areas are back on the same footing again. That is very, very positive for me.
 
I don't want to pick an argument as I certainly agree that Levy does not get the credit for the great work he has done. I do feel criticisms of what he didn't do at certain times are very, very valid, however it is important to remember that ENIC dictate the agenda not solely him. I still cannot think of another chairman anywhere who could've got that stadium built; it is an enormous legacy.

However, and this has been discussed many times, the signing/not signing thing is NOT binary. First of all, in order to even get to the 18 month thing, it is worth looking at the 16/17 window. In one month -June 2016- Pochettino failed to get not one, but two of his stated targets in WInaldjum and Mane. We instead spent money on Sissoko, N’Koudou and Janssen. We did not have much money at the time due to the stadium commitment, that is understood, but one of those players he wanted versus the three that came in might've been a huge difference.

Nothing about that 18 months in binary. Levy would've spent money, yes, but on players who were not the manager's top targets. The manager thus felt it was better to hold the money rather than just spend on players he didn't feel would improve his squad (especially given our failure to move outgoings). Tielemanns has been brought up countless times, but is he at a title-winning club? We might like him, but the manager didn't want him. The Toby situation has been much discussed also, ditto Eriksen.

I think looking forward, Levy's biggest and best move was recognizing that we needed to change out direction last April, more specifically that we needed a Director of Football. Thus far, I feel he has largely left him to do his business (Kane being the exception). With Nuno's appt, it feels like all areas are back on the same footing again. That is very, very positive for me.
Very good post Steff.

To me it seems like a DoF model has been Levy's preference for a long time. When we haven't had that in the last 15 years or so I think it's been as much about what the manager has wanted as about what Levy has wanted.

Certainly would seem strange that during what must have been both a very busy and difficult time with the stadium Levy would have refused to put a DoF in place, but being happy to at other times.

Haven't seen any real reports on that decision when Pochettino was here. But if Poch had gone to Levy saying that he wanted a DoF, do you think Levy would have refused?
 
Very good post Steff.

To me it seems like a DoF model has been Levy's preference for a long time. When we haven't had that in the last 15 years or so I think it's been as much about what the manager has wanted as about what Levy has wanted.

Certainly would seem strange that during what must have been both a very busy and difficult time with the stadium Levy would have refused to put a DoF in place, but being happy to at other times.

Haven't seen any real reports on that decision when Pochettino was here. But if Poch had gone to Levy saying that he wanted a DoF, do you think Levy would have refused?

Wasn't it reported - or perhaps speculated/rumoured might be more accurate - that Levy did want to appoint a DoF during Poch's time, but Poch didn't want one?
 
I don't want to pick an argument as I certainly agree that Levy does not get the credit for the great work he has done. I do feel criticisms of what he didn't do at certain times are very, very valid, however it is important to remember that ENIC dictate the agenda not solely him. I still cannot think of another chairman anywhere who could've got that stadium built; it is an enormous legacy.

However, and this has been discussed many times, the signing/not signing thing is NOT binary. First of all, in order to even get to the 18 month thing, it is worth looking at the 16/17 window. In one month -June 2016- Pochettino failed to get not one, but two of his stated targets in WInaldjum and Mane. We instead spent money on Sissoko, N’Koudou and Janssen. We did not have much money at the time due to the stadium commitment, that is understood, but one of those players he wanted versus the three that came in might've been a huge difference.

Nothing about that 18 months in binary. Levy would've spent money, yes, but on players who were not the manager's top targets. The manager thus felt it was better to hold the money rather than just spend on players he didn't feel would improve his squad (especially given our failure to move outgoings). Tielemanns has been brought up countless times, but is he at a title-winning club? We might like him, but the manager didn't want him. The Toby situation has been much discussed also, ditto Eriksen.

I think looking forward, Levy's biggest and best move was recognizing that we needed to change out direction last April, more specifically that we needed a Director of Football. Thus far, I feel he has largely left him to do his business (Kane being the exception). With Nuno's appt, it feels like all areas are back on the same footing again. That is very, very positive for me.

Steff, I'm a poch fan as well mate, and don't want to make this a Poch Vs Levy thing.

But Poch was part of the team that identified Sissoko, and Janssen as targets to pursue. Maybe Mane and Winnaldum were his top targets but his other top targets include: Ndombele and saido Berahino... so you know he wasn't infallible

Again don't want to turn this into an anti poch thing at all, but identifying a player maybe wasn't his strong point yet he wanted more control over this process. Which he got, leading to the infamous 18months plus other things which ultimately left our squad so unbalanced, and desperately needing a refresh. I could go on but this post is starting to sound anti Poch and it's not intended that way.
 
Wasn't it reported - or perhaps speculated/rumoured might be more accurate - that Levy did want to appoint a DoF during Poch's time, but Poch didn't want one?

I think that's about as nailed on as you are going to get without actually hearing that directly from Levy or Poch themselves.
 
Considering that Levy didn't have success with DoFs in the past could explain why he went without. And Hitchen... What does he do aside from assisting Levy play the role of DoF?

We've seen time and time again the irresistible appeal for owners and chairmen to get involved with player trading, so can see Levy having a go.

When I criticise Levy it's only for those years where we were terrible in the transfer market. It was when we were flirting with success. We were just a few tactical players short of success.

Worst outcome was not doing anything for three transfer windows. Lack of fresh blood and competition still affects the current squad IMO.

Sent from my SM-G998B using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Considering that Levy didn't have success with DoFs in the past could explain why he went without. And Hitchen... What does he do aside from assisting Levy play the role of DoF?

We've seen time and time again the irresistible appeal for owners and chairmen to get involved with player trading, so can see Levy having a go.

When I criticise Levy it's only for those years where we were terrible in the transfer market. It was when we were flirting with success. We were just a few tactical players short of success.

Worst outcome was not doing anything for three transfer windows. Lack of fresh blood and competition still affects the current squad IMO.

Sent from my SM-G998B using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

It was two windows wasn't it, not three? Unless my memory is failing me, which is not uncommon these days.
 
Considering that Levy didn't have success with DoFs in the past could explain why he went without. And Hitchen... What does he do aside from assisting Levy play the role of DoF?

We've seen time and time again the irresistible appeal for owners and chairmen to get involved with player trading, so can see Levy having a go.

When I criticise Levy it's only for those years where we were terrible in the transfer market. It was when we were flirting with success. We were just a few tactical players short of success.

Worst outcome was not doing anything for three transfer windows. Lack of fresh blood and competition still affects the current squad IMO.

Sent from my SM-G998B using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Why do you say that Levy didn't have success with a DOF. I would say the opposite. OUR DOFs actually built our best sides. And Levy is smart enough to recognise that.
 
As always, thanks mate - you're very kind, and it's appreciated. :)

I agree with you in terms of the potential of our signings this summer - broadly, Romero and Emerson are (at least in my view) statement signings given our current level, and excellent bits of business. Gil and Sarr fit the sort of profiles we've always looked for - young, hungry players with potential who are a bit below the radar - but Emerson and Romero were already established among Europe's best young players when we made our move.

But, the thing is, we've been here before. If you look back to our days between roughly 2005 and 2008, we made a habit of signing high-potential, highly-sought young players for high fees - it was almost our specialty. In successive summers, we signed Berbatov, Bale, Bent and Modric, all for high fees compared to our typical outlays back then. The common thread across our operating models then and now is the presence of a Director of Football who aggressively goes out and targets these players, and persuades Levy to part with our cash to make those deals happen. Comolli then, Paratici now.

I think the litmus test for whether Levy's actually changed is yet to come. He's never had issues historically paying for young talent - but when it comes to established players in their prime that the manager specifically asks for, that's when he has historically, continually failed to back his men, from endless examples under Poch to Skriniar under Mourinho.

We don't know how far Nuno wanted established players this summer - how much he wanted Adama, or Neves, or other players. But when he asks for an established player, and Paratici then sets up a big-money deal and goes to Levy to ask for his approval...that's when we'll truly know if he's changed.

One thing is for certain - that stadium that we have built was meant for far, far grander stages than the UEFA Conference League. It, and the training ground, were both built with the understanding that they would propel us into the elite - and that stadium belongs, and almost *demands*, to be used for the grandest of games, the most heart-pounding moments and the most awe-inspiring nights.

There's honestly a sense of silent, demanding expectation that surrounds the place - of untapped, barely contained potential thrumming behind the sleek concourses, the crystalline executive boxes, the gigantic single stand disappearing out of sight into the sky, and the technological marvel of a roof, which looks like a piece of engineering more at home in a space station than anywhere on this surly abode. I've done my share of crap grounds in Europe and North America - but when I was there, I understood what folks meant when they said it was like an alien mothership had landed in the middle of Haringey. I really did.

We have a gigantic stadium for the elite. We have the training ground for the elite. We have a DoF who has done his time at an elite club.

The manager and the players are a mixed bag, and are as yet unknown.

But none of it will last without ownership, and leadership, who want us to be elite - not elite on the cheap, not elite with zero net spend, not elite if affordable. Elite, with no excuses.

For better or worse ,Daniel Levy and his boss are our owners for as long as they want to be. We need him to learn what it means to be the chairman of one of the richest clubs in the world, in the richest league in the world...and aiming to be on the grandest stages in the world.

That's what Poch wanted for us. Time will tell, imo, if Levy actually knows how to operate at that level. If he doesn't, this is where we will stay.

I’m trying to think back to the Berbatov and Modric summers, because in my head I feel like the sheer volume of high quality young players coming in is higher now, where as before we made a statement, and then filled around them with cheaper options.

When Berbatov came, I’m remembering also Zokora (Carrick replacement so no real level up) and Chimbonda. Am I missing anyone? Sod it, I’ve just looked up, that summer, we got BAE and Steed too.

The next summer, this was Bale, Bent, Kaboul.

Next one was Modric, Bentley, Pav, Corluka.

It may just be me, but there’s something in the level of signings we are now making, and the velocity we are making them that I think shows we have stepped up. I would argue that a Modric or a Berbatov or a Bale, was a ‘one of the best young players in Europe in their position’ type of signing, but the rest were solid PL players rather than being as highly rated.

Now, when I look at Romero, Reggy, Emerson, Berg, Gil, Lo Celso, heck even Sess and N’Dombele if they can get a run together, I think we have more of those types in the squad.
 
But Poch was part of the team that identified Sissoko, and Janssen as targets to pursue.

Not sure about that, Janssen might have been, but if you read Pochs book Sissoko was definitely the Charmans choice. It didn't read like Poch wanted him!
 
Agreed, I cannot stand these digs at our club all the time, constantly sniping and chipping away at Tottenham Hotspur, agonising to read these anti-Levy diatribes over and over.
I think I have read about 57 so far and no doubt more are on the way. Jesus Christ.
So why bother reading them then? I don't understand why people read posts from @DubaiSpur then moan about him writing them?

This is a forum where different views are encouraged rather than an echo chamber for views that are acceptable to the majority of the board.
 
Yet some call him small time and penny pinching, that's incredibly insulting. I find it hard to believe that at least part of that is not an antisemitic thought processes.

For a sensible poster such as yourself, that is bang out of order. Every time @DubaiSpur makes an argument around the lack of spending by ENIC he puts a context to it of them being investment company and them protecting their investment.

You are better than throwing around accusations of racism and anti semitism where is no evidence.
 
So why bother reading them then? I don't understand why people read posts from @DubaiSpur then moan about him writing them?

This is a forum where different views are encouraged rather than an echo chamber for views that are acceptable to the majority of the board.


For all that i disagree with 90% of what he says about levy its his opinion and he's entitled to it.
At least he's consistent, and i can save time by scim reading his posts.
 
For a sensible poster such as yourself, that is bang out of order. Every time @DubaiSpur makes an argument around the lack of spending by ENIC he puts a context to it of them being investment company and them protecting their investment.

You are better than throwing around accusations of racism and anti semitism where is no evidence.

I'm not saying that @DubaiSpur is anti semitic. I'm saying that some of the abuse that Levy gets is born from Anti semitic thoughts. How can you call someone who has built the best and most expensive football stadium in the world "penny pinching" ? What about his investment in at the time the best training facilities in world? I maintain that I'm uncomfortable with the characterisation of Levy as "penny pinching" I see no logical factual reason why he would ever be described as such.
 
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