Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

If the rest of the points you've made our guarantee's then surely winning trophies would have to be included in that as well.

Otherwise what are you basing the fact that they are guarantee's on?

His club performance has deteriorated year on year. Just as his football and tactics have. I highly reject the notion he is an 'elite level manager' as Raziel says. He was, for sure, but not any more.

So no, no guarantee of winning.

However, he has been an utter clam everywhere he has ever been. And, if anything, his sour antics have escalated year on year.

General sense should leave you pretty comfortable with the prediction of more of the same.

 

[fernadez]

We cannot even be entertaining the idea that we will sack Poch....

Unless were all doing hard drugs now of course then anything goes

I would certainly hope not, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that (I hope).

The downward trend in our results is unavoidable though. If he continues to talk about leaving us it would be kinda foolish as a company to be not thinking about succession.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

We cannot even be entertaining the idea that we will sack Poch....

Unless were all doing hard drugs now of course then anything goes

Agreed, but I also thin Poch needs to be showing signs of arresting our form and putting things back on track.

If he doesnt, its going to become a real thing...

 

[Benny_Lad]

Something that's been bothering me is our tactics/system. For a couple of seasons we pretty much pressed everyone and beat most but came unstuck against the best.

At the moment we seem to have landed regularly on the Diamond formation. Its more 'compact' (seems the buzz word at the minute) but in terms of attacking flair it relies on the wing backs getting round the diamond and supporting attacks. At the moment I don't think our wing backs are effective enough offensively (involved in enough goals) to say this is working.

On Sunday we continually worked it wide and then crossed to pretty much just Kane or occasionally a late box runner. We barely managed to pick anyone out barring a couple.

If this was a system we thought we might use against rigid teams, why have we not re-signed Llorente? Whether you rate him or not, its highly likely he would have been thrown on at some point. Instead we sent on Ben Davies.

 

[fernadez]

His club performance has deteriorated year on year. Just as his football and tactics have. I highly reject the notion he is an 'elite level manager' as Raziel says. He was, for sure, but not any more.

So no, no guarantee of winning.

However, he has been an utter clam everywhere he has ever been. And, if anything, his sour antics have escalated year on year.

General sense should leave you pretty comfortable with the prediction of more of the same.

But he's won trophies everywhere he has been, won the UEFA and League Cup then finished 2nd with that Utd squad. You could comfortably predict he'd win something with us as more of the same.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

But he's won trophies everywhere he has been, won the UEFA and League Cup then finished 2nd with that Utd squad. You could comfortably predict he'd win something with us as more of the same.

I disagree, but have absolutely no interest in batting it back and forth all day.

 

[fernadez]

Something that's been bothering me is our tactics/system. For a couple of seasons we pretty much pressed everyone and beat most but came unstuck against the best.

At the moment we seem to have landed regularly on the Diamond formation. Its more 'compact' (seems the buzz word at the minute) but in terms of attacking flair it relies on the wing backs getting round the diamond and supporting attacks. At the moment I don't think our wing backs are effective enough offensively (involved in enough goals) to say this is working.

On Sunday we continually worked it wide and then crossed to pretty much just Kane or occasionally a late box runner. We barely managed to pick anyone out barring a couple.

If this was a system we thought we might use against rigid teams, why have we not re-signed Llorente? Whether you rate him or not, its highly likely he would have been thrown on at some point. Instead we sent on Ben Davies.

If you read up on Fergie, he basically built two teams and tactics. The fast 4-3-3 for the league and then the solid possession based game with players like Park coming in for Europe. He recognized that what it to to be successful domestically and in Europe were very different which is why English teams always had trouble against the best of Europe at that time.

The way we play looks like a system that is geared towards European football, dominate possession, probe, protect the ball etc. However domestically it's not needed. GIven his comments in the past about how he views the merits of winning certain competitions, maybe he's gone with trying to build a team he thinks can win the Champions League.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Something that's been bothering me is our tactics/system. For a couple of seasons we pretty much pressed everyone and beat most but came unstuck against the best.

At the moment we seem to have landed regularly on the Diamond formation. Its more 'compact' (seems the buzz word at the minute) but in terms of attacking flair it relies on the wing backs getting round the diamond and supporting attacks. At the moment I don't think our wing backs are effective enough offensively (involved in enough goals) to say this is working.

On Sunday we continually worked it wide and then crossed to pretty much just Kane or occasionally a late box runner. We barely managed to pick anyone out barring a couple.

If this was a system we thought we might use against rigid teams, why have we not re-signed Llorente? Whether you rate him or not, its highly likely he would have been thrown on at some point. Instead we sent on Ben Davies.

I can't help wondering whether their was another attacker that was a target besides Dybala; one with more pace than Kane but also more of a threat in the air. Dybala didn't seem a long-term target rather than one that just landed in our laps as a possible signing when Juve needed to free up wages after their buys recently.

Either way, seeing as we don't have Llorente we cannot use that cross high into the box thing anyway and the coaches need to train the team accordingly...

 

[glorygloryeze]

Yes I hope so too. I must admit to still not being entirely convinced how, just by a transfer window slamming shut, players suddenly playing back to their best. And I’m not sure what it says about them that they haven’t been able to perform to their best while this has been going on.

Poch is also a different dude and thinks differently to how a lot of people do. I feel like things like loyalty, trust, giving your best, doing the right thing, they genuinely mean a lot to him where as doing the right thing for yourself is probably how others go. And maybe when he’s sensing the aura isn’t right, he finds it more difficult.

Something is really odd. We should have had enough to beat Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I don’t understand the vibe around the place. I’m looking forward to a new bomb squad. The Jan thing is odd - maybe the noise about Toby being willing to sign a new contract is linked to Jan, in that Poch is giving Toby a run while Jan is making it more difficult for us to plan?

The big intrigue though is why so many players seem like they are at the end of their tether with it just when things should become easier. Trippier alluded to it. Rose seems to want out every summer. Now Jan is making life difficult? Eriksen hasn’t even managed to get an offer. GHod knows what Aurier and Dier are thinking, maybe they are moping about the place having been injured and just want a change of scenery.

You make some interesting points. I do wonder re the bit i have bolded whether some players have started questioning whether Poch himself has been consistent with those things...

 

[glorygloryeze]

And another thing, Mourinho is past-it; he flopped with the resources he had at Man Utd to be able to throw big cash at many mediocre players who weren't worth it and make those players slowly play worse than they had at their previous clubs.

He'd flop with us and put us back years. He is yesterday's man who hasn't evolved with the game. Has been a chequebook manager for years and can't even do well with that anymore.

No thanks.

 

[glorygloryeze]

If you read up on Fergie, he basically built two teams and tactics. The fast 4-3-3 for the league and then the solid possession based game with players like Park coming in for Europe. He recognized that what it to to be successful domestically and in Europe were very different which is why English teams always had trouble against the best of Europe at that time.

The way we play looks like a system that is geared towards European football, dominate possession, probe, protect the ball etc. However domestically it's not needed. GIven his comments in the past about how he views the merits of winning certain competitions, maybe he's gone with trying to build a team he thinks can win the Champions League.

Hmm, interesting point, re the bolded bit. However i doubt it and in any case you can't run before you can walk...

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

This is my only real concern, there is a lot of brick being posted about Poch at this time and its over reaction by many. I posted in the match thread that we need to pick the pace up when we have the ball ( at the moment we are allowing other teams to organise far to easily).

I have no reason why we are turning into a snail pace team but some of the reason must be down to Poch, if we pick the pace/movement up i am sure we will improve.

ironically in many of the pre season games we played with energy, pressing and looked cohesive.

 

[parklane1]

ironically in many of the pre season games we played with energy, pressing and looked cohesive.

True but pre season games do not really mean much, its all about fitness and not many teams take it more serious then that.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Look fellas....short term wise the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game was not much different to the Villa game. Park the bus, shut down any space and just make things as ugly and difficult as possible. Its nothing new, we've faced it many times, and in both games we haven't looked very good, imaginative or creative in breaking thru. We did in one, didn't in the other.

We'll probably, attacking wise, get our act together as the new signings, and Sonny, Alli etc get up to speed, and like other seasons we'll look a lot more threatening and creative in the final third.

The short and medium term problem is the defence inc the dcm. DCM protection is nowhere near what it was and if you compare any back 4 line up we field now to Walker Toby Jan Rose (of 3-4 years ago) its not comparable.

That defence is comparable to AA Gomes VVD Robertson. ie best in the league. Short term the current defence leaves us open to conceding, even stupid goals like Saturday. Medium term, the replacements are just not good enough (yet?) and the existing reliable ones are ageing or out the door real soon.

Thats a whole load of work to do especially considering the existing replacements may end up not being good enough. The problem with signing no-one for 3 windows (i understand why we didnt) is it pushed all the work down the road. Even the not selling anyone either has kept players around for longer than THEY wanted. We are trying to address the midfield/forward line dynamic BUT as Liverpool have proved (and many other teams in the past) you have to be solid at the back if you want to go all the way. If the peak Walker Toby Jan Rose defence was with the attackers/midfielders we have now we'd be serious contenders. But we are far from that.

From Poch's view he probably knows this, and him mentioning this is a new chapter, new team is acknowledgement of that BUT realistically it'll take this season and next season until this 'new team' starts really showing what it is and that'll be 7-8 years into his reign, i hope Poch is committed to that. Perhaps the slow dragging on of contracts, players not going,or being sold just feels like a brake on his new vision?

There really is zero point getting rid of him. I think his relative achievements get normalised and to think there are any other managers that would have taken us to anything higher in the time he has been here is wishful thinking. Whether he can keep kicking on (realistically probably not looking at City,Liverpool) will be a challenge and, of course, at test for him and his abilities, but i wouldn't put him on probation ...probability would suggest it is a down step if we were to change him, most managers are a bit sh.it he has many good qualities and has shown them.

 

[thfcsteff]

If Mourinho came in I think Id simply forget football exists for three years and come back once he left after everything turned sour, see what pieces are left behind...

It would, in my case anyway, necessitate the single greatest act of football-induced hypocrisy I would ever have committed!

 

[elltrev]

Yes I hope so too. I must admit to still not being entirely convinced how, just by a transfer window slamming shut, players suddenly playing back to their best. And I’m not sure what it says about them that they haven’t been able to perform to their best while this has been going on.

Poch is also a different dude and thinks differently to how a lot of people do. I feel like things like loyalty, trust, giving your best, doing the right thing, they genuinely mean a lot to him where as doing the right thing for yourself is probably how others go. And maybe when he’s sensing the aura isn’t right, he finds it more difficult.

Something is really odd. We should have had enough to beat Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I don’t understand the vibe around the place. I’m looking forward to a new bomb squad. The Jan thing is odd - maybe the noise about Toby being willing to sign a new contract is linked to Jan, in that Poch is giving Toby a run while Jan is making it more difficult for us to plan?

The big intrigue though is why so many players seem like they are at the end of their tether with it just when things should become easier. Trippier alluded to it. Rose seems to want out every summer. Now Jan is making life difficult? Eriksen hasn’t even managed to get an offer. GHod knows what Aurier and Dier are thinking, maybe they are moping about the place having been injured and just want a change of scenery.

I mentioned in my previous post that the last couple of years have comprised a unique set of circumstances that I can understand might have dampened some players' sense of enthusiasm and momentum at the club, especially if they'd already been at the club for a number of years before that (e.g. Rose and Eriksen). And I can imagine that once you lose that sense of enthusiasm and momentum, it's almost impossible to get it back to 100%. I also wonder if the second piece of the puzzle is what you've just said about Poch - how he thinks differently to others? Maybe because of his strong values he's responded disproportionately badly to some players' lack of enthusiasm and commitment, and so has exacerbated the issue and created a vicious circle of negative mood around the squad?

 

[thfcsteff]

Wow! Not even 3 months since we reached our first ever Champions League final. Just 3 games into a transfer window affected season with an almost fully fit squad and new signings. Transitioning between midfielders. Never thought I would see this negativity towards Poch. Let's see if Levy shares your view.

Poch has absolutely earned the benefit of the doubt. He has also earned my trust and hope. Having said that, something is not right. As I have said, let us hope it is only football-related/Sept 2nd related and that once the window has shut he will find spirit and ascension once more. But it is clear that something is not right and has not been since the summer/right around the CL Final.

On a related note, we really missed Ndombele on Sunday. I wish either Winks or Sissoko had looked to carry the ball into deeper positions more. Against those “walls” one of your CMs has to take the initiative, either with quick passing or turn and go mojo; I hope Poch changes that up and fast.

 

[thfcsteff]

I mentioned in my previous post that the last couple of years have comprised a unique set of circumstances that I can understand might have dampened some players' sense of enthusiasm and momentum at the club, especially if they'd already been at the club for a number of years before that (e.g. Rose and Eriksen). And I can imagine that once you lose that sense of enthusiasm and momentum, it's almost impossible to get it back to 400%. I also wonder if the second piece of the puzzle is what you've just said about Poch - how he thinks differently to others? Maybe because of his strong values he's responded disproportionately badly to some players' lack of enthusiasm and commitment, and so has exacerbated the issue and created a vicious circle of negative mood around the squad?

I think there is something in that. I wonder if he has taken Eriksen’s defiance personally? Who knows.

 

[elltrev]

I think there is something in that. I wonder if he has taken Eriksen’s defiance personally? Who knows.

Thinking about it, it really wouldn’t surprise me. After 5 years of constraints, just as we’re poised to take the big next step with the stadium finished and 3 top players brought in, he’s faced with the frustrating ongoing constraint of multiple key players not sharing his commitment to the collective and everything they’re striving to achieve together (and so close to achieving). Maybe he’s struggling to keep his heart in the ‘project’ when others are abandoning it (and him) despite everything we’ve achieved, and are on the cusp of achieving.

 

[fernadez]

How does that all fit in with our form this calendar year though?