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If you could exile two humans off this planet

Oh so sorry, of course you are right...I am not self-made. I attended a government school, had my fees paid by the government and at one stage was a patient at a government hospital. By your definition, any one who utilises government services is not self-made. That probably disqualfies every single person in the western world at present.

I was actually disputing your comment about no one giving you hand up. No one has the automatic right to be in further education as far as I am concerned.

Going through an education system and being employed your entire life doesn't make a self made man. Why? Because that man is still reliant on others employing him. So more of a man made by someone else!
 
Which is what there is now. Not that I agree with new private residential blocks being mingled with enforced social housing. Never understood why someone should work their arse off and struggle to a mortgage to live there when their next door neighbours are living in an identical property and not paying a penny for it but that's another debate all together.

But in your anti-business utopian society who is going to be able to afford to own their own property?
Also do you think we'd have the amount of home owners we do now if there wasn't a scheme to buy your council house in the 80's?
You've also demonstrated your strong environmentalism beliefs, so building new council houses would also be off the table for you right now.

So what's your answer now? Forced re-possession of people's homes so that the government owns them instead of the individual?

Where have I ever stated that I am anti-business? I believe in a mixed economy. I think you may have misinterpreted a post made by me on another thread. I believe in government control of core industries and services, such as minerals and energy, transport, health, education etc. I do not believe that all industry should be under government control.
 
Where have I ever stated that I am anti-business? I believe in a mixed economy. I think you may have misinterpreted a post made by me on another thread. I believe in government control of core industries and services, such as minerals and energy, transport, health, education etc. I do not believe that all industry should be under government control.

And yet you seem to be so bitter against anyone successful? And in that other thread you cleary state you're an ardent critic of business. What about Unions? The people that hold the country/business to ransom making unrealistic demands and killing our industry?
 
What planet are you livi ng in? OK, lets call it sparkling wine. A very cheap drink.

That's better. For someone who claims to be excellently educated to not actually know what defines Champagne is a poor indicator of the English eductation system (not that it needs one, the English education system has been fudging awful for a long time)
 
I was actually disputing your comment about no one giving you hand up. No one has the automatic right to be in further education as far as I am concerned.

Going through an education system and being employed your entire life doesn't make a self made man. Why? Because that man is still reliant on others employing him. So more of a man made by someone else!
Nobody sat those exams for me! I didn't attend an exclusive school and no one put the hours in on the job for me either, but I suppose that doesnt stack up against some self employed bloke with a van, a concrete mixer and some second hand scaffold, in 'business' which is therefore, in your eyes 'self-made.'
 
So what are you then? So far you've been good at being critical but have offered none of your beliefs in return.

I am a self made man with his own business, i am neither a socialist or a Tory and because of that i am able to remain opened minded. I have friends who have been died in the wool Toys for most of their lives, but and here is the rubthey hated Thatcher and all she did so its not only socialists that would be celebrating.
 
Nobody sat those exams for me! I didn't attend an exclusive school and no one put the hours in on the job for me either, but I suppose that doesnt stack up against some self employed bloke with a van, a concrete mixer and some second hand scaffold, in 'business' which is therefore, in your eyes 'self-made.'

I have no time for academics. An education is a stepping stone, not an end goal. And those scummy self employed blokes are doing their best to generate their own wealth and it's those sort of people that had this country once being THE economic superpower of the world. People who were innovative and took risks. People who made something tangible and generated wealth for this country.

We as a nation have two clear choices.

If we want to keep all our nice gadgets and toys, our holidays etc then we as a country need to generate wealth. We need to ensure that we export more than we import. You can't export public sector services. So therefore you have to pander more to the private sector than the public. You need to ensure we have an environment that is geared towards business being profitable.

The second option is we give those things up, and try and become self sufficient. Close off the borders, set steep import tariffs to encourage our people not to spend money on foreign goods or services. Bring in the law to only be able to holiday in the UK etc.
 
And yet you seem to be so bitter against anyone successful? And in that other thread you cleary state you're an ardent critic of business. What about Unions? The people that hold the country/business to ransom making unrealistic demands and killing our industry?

One can be a critic of something but not be rabidly prejudiced against it. How am I bitter against the successful? Clever people deserve success. The only ones I oppose are those who exploit others to achieve it. You read too much right wing press mate. Industry and unions can and have worked side by side for the benefit of industry in the past and will do so in the future. But as I state d on the other thread, you're one of the Bambi believers. Ha, ha.
 
I am a self made man with his own business, i am neither a socialist or a Tory and because of that i am able to remain opened minded. I have friends who have been died in the wool Toys for most of their lives, but and here is the rubthey hated Thatcher and all she did so its not only socialists that would be celebrating.

What is your business? When did you start it?
 
One can be a critic of something but not be rabidly prejudiced against it. How am I bitter against the successful? Clever people deserve success. The only ones I oppose are those who exploit others to achieve it. You read too much right wing press mate. Industry and unions can and have worked side by side for the benefit of industry in the past and will do so in the future. But as I state d on the other thread, you're one of the Bambi believers. Ha, ha.

Really? That's not very socialist is it? Hard working people deserve success. There are a lot of very clever academics out there, for example, who deserve fudge all.
 
One can be a critic of something but not be rabidly prejudiced against it. How am I bitter against the successful? Clever people deserve success. The only ones I oppose are those who exploit others to achieve it. You read too much right wing press mate. Industry and unions can and have worked side by side for the benefit of industry in the past and will do so in the future. But as I state d on the other thread, you're one of the Bambi believers. Ha, ha.

Like your fat cat union bosses? When in the past did it benefit industry, I'd be interested in knowing. Because we've been on the decline for about a century now.
 
Hey Moonlit Knight, you have taken this thread right of course you hijacker. He. he. I would exile Arsene Wenger and Old Red Nose. I despise them both. Oh, I meant to say clever AND hard working.
 
What has that got to do with all this, you make a lot of assertions about others views and then try and change you tack. Knowing what, why, when has no bearing on my thoughts on Thatcher.

I'm interested, especially the when. But you won't commit to anything will you?

Which of these two statements ring more true to you:

1) I believe in helping people who help themselves. Those that achieve high standards deserve their rewards.

2) I believe that we should all help each other. Those that achieve high standards should use their abilities to help others and not seek personal fortune or glory.
 
Like your fat cat union bosses? When in the past did it benefit industry, I'd be interested in knowing. Because we've been on the decline for about a century now.

We've been on the decline because other countries have risen or are rising to their rightful place in the world order. A small island, filled with just 30-60 million people was not going to keep up with the US etc indefinitely, especially without maintaining its colonies (which Britain was also unable to do).

I don't really get why you're getting so angry either. You insist on calling people to the left of you socialists (when you actually seem to mean something more akin to communists) even when they tell you there are not. Why do clever people, who contribute to the economy, not deserve to be successful? Do you not believe in meritocracy? Why also do academics deserve nothing? Why are Gilzean's bosses fat cat union bosses (I'd be careful with that kind of terminology, people might accuse you of being a socialist soon)!

And why does the fact that an education system, which still boats 4 of the world's best universities across the board, as well as various others which are world class in their various specialties, doesn't teach someone the difference between wine and champagne mean that its brick?
 
I'm interested, especially the when. But you won't commit to anything will you?

Which of these two statements ring more true to you:

1) I believe in helping people who help themselves. Those that achieve high standards deserve their rewards.

2) I believe that we should all help each other. Those that achieve high standards should use their abilities to help others and not seek personal fortune or glory.

Its because you are so blinkered in your views you do not listen to what others have to say. Those two examples kind of sum your opinions up, you look at everything as black and white with no room for manoeuvre, i will repeat i do not like Thatcher how more commited could i be over that, have you got it yet.
 
We've been on the decline because other countries have risen or are rising to their rightful place in the world order. A small island, filled with just 30-60 million people was not going to keep up with the US etc indefinitely, especially without maintaining its colonies (which Britain was also unable to do).

I don't really get why you're getting so angry either. You insist on calling people to the left of you socialists (when you actually seem to mean something more akin to communists) even when they tell you there are not. Why do clever people, who contribute to the economy, not deserve to be successful? Do you not believe in meritocracy? Why also do academics deserve nothing? Why are Gilzean's bosses fat cat union bosses (I'd be careful with that kind of terminology, people might accuse you of being a socialist soon)!

And why does the fact that an education system, which still boats 4 of the world's best universities across the board, as well as various others which are world class in their various specialties, doesn't teach someone the difference between wine and champagne mean that its brick?

You tried to employ anyone recently? Especially coming out of Uni? It's genuinely scary!!

And I don't disagree with you to an extent. I'm a realist. Unfortunately as soon as a country becomes successful at an industry then everyone jumps on the bandwagon. That drives wages up and eventually you'll be undercut by a foreign competitor. It's what happened to the manufacturing industry in this country. Even today people can't see that is what happened to our coal mining industry too. There is no point subsidising something that has no hope in succeeding.

What scares me right now is the ill feeling towards the banking industry (although I do believe it is understandable, and how some of those people aren't in jail is beyond me). The banking industry is the one thing that is stopping this country completely imploding and yet there is now this huge movement building momentum determined to tear the whole thing down.

Clever people who generate wealth do deserve to be successful. Where have I said that isn't the course?

And my main point about socialism is that people are hypocrits. I am more socialist than most socialists I know. And believe me that doesn't make socialist!! I fully understand the difference between communism and socialism, but most socialists do not. They seem hellbent on demanding the rich pay more tax but then can't actually back up why. They say it because it's mantra, not because they genuinely know why they should or they shouldn't.

Britain needs to be leaner and meaner if it's going to have any chance of succeeding in this global economic world. We may never get our manufacturing power back, and we lack natural resources. So what we need to do is encouraging the private sector to be creative and ensuring they have enough profit to invest heavily in R&D.

My personal beliefs differ from what I know needs to be done. I am all for helping those that can't help themselves. That is my personal belief. But I also know that in reality life and nature doesn't work that way. I am an animal lover and I hate the thought of Tigers, Lions, Elephants etc becoming extinct. It frustrates me that man is the primary cause of this. That is my personal belief. It's a selfish belief because at the end of the day it's just natural selection. Man is currently the dominant species on the planet. Other species will either have to learn to adapt to that or die out. Nature has followed this rule for millions of years. The strongest and most adaptable survive.

It's not people's political beliefs that wind me up. It's the hypocrisy that they don't practice what they preach. I do practice what I preach AND I will set aside my own personal emotions and beliefs when I know they're unrealistic or selfish.

My girlfriend is Canadian, and only here because she is on a Dutch passport. I do not believe we should be in the EU anymore. I am pleased that we are because I love my girlfriend, and would hate to lose her. Us pulling out of the EU may mean she'd have to leave the country and we'd most likely break up. If there is a referendum I will vote for the UK to pull out of the EU, because the country has to come before my own personal circumstances. THAT is true socialism. Most self proclaimed socialists wouldn't know what self sacrifice was if it came and nailed them to a cross.....
 
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