Nigeyman
Chris Armstrong
some people want Levy burnt at the stake, attacked by wild gorillas and then set on fire again.
Others want to eat custard/strawberries and cream off from his beloved shiny head.
choose your camp very carefully.
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Harry Kane MBE
- Thread starter thfcsteff
- Start date
some people want Levy burnt at the stake, attacked by wild gorillas and then set on fire again.
Others want to eat custard/strawberries and cream off from his beloved shiny head.
choose your camp very carefully.
Mooresinho
Michael Brown
True. Let's see how I go!It's a forum, mate - it exists to enable argument.Even with that, the vast majority of folks here are good 'uns - @statlover1 et al included, although I disagree with them on the subject of our ownership.
I'd suggest you stick around and make your own mind up - for what it's worth, this is probably the least argumentative Spurs forum out there.
Mooresinho
Michael Brown
I have been lurking for some time now as had a problem with the captcha thing for a good few months so could never sign up properly. Noticed the custard thing a few times and wondered what the f that was about. So what is that all about?!
Nigeyman
Chris Armstrong
I am not the one to ask..
ricky2tricky4city
Tom Huddlestone
ricky2tricky4city
Tom Huddlestone
Custard
Badgers
Tom Jones
Jeff Goldblum
Bassong
...................the list goes on
Careful.... we're a cult really.
Short answer is = yes, we would have been considerably worse off with fan ownership, take look at the Trust if you want to see what "fan logic" looks like.
What Levy and ENIC have done is future proof the club, you can bitch all you want about trophies and lack of success, but what they have done is make our existence secure, Leicester, for all their success runs at a loss and bad season could drop them out of PL and into oblivion (same could be said for a whole group of clubs, Southampton, Everton, etc.). Again using the Leicester example, they make barely £20M more money annually than Palace, Sheffield United & Wolves, we now make more money than the Scum & Chelsea and pretty much competitive with everyone bar United & Pool
This where a few people jump in and go "who gives a fudge" and "there's Raziel again with his money trophy". The reason it matters has been highlighted by Pool, Chelsea and United in the past, all have dropped out CL places (we finished above Pool for 6 fudging seasons), the money allows you to buy your way out of trouble, we now can do that, we can ride out a pandemic and still buy a £50M defender. In 5 years that extra revenue will make a difference.
And this is where you go "well, couldn't a fan run club have done that", and again the answer is no, Lewis & ENIC may put fudge all into the club, but if you think their financial status didn't make a difference in securing funding for a £1B stadium, you are missing a huge part of it, add in would we have really paid top dollar for a CEO under fan ownership? would our priorities really be what's best for club or what's best for fans? (they are not the same thing)
In 2000, Leeds, Villa, Sunderland, Leicester, West Ham all finished above us and the people we were fighting with were Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Everton. Take out City and Chelsea for obvious reason and we have improved against our peers better than anyone else in that timeline. To assume any other ownership (bar RA or UAE money) would have done better is nothing but wishful thinking, it just isn't backed by fact or logic.
Players will always leave clubs -> Ronaldo from United, Hazard from Chelsea, Naymar from Barca, what matters is they don't fudge over the club, we get money for them and we re-invest it appropriately.
Levy/ENIC's job now is to ensure if Kane does leave, it's for fair money and we use that to adequately replace him (and yes, someone will point out past errors, but that's why we have Paratici now).
Not my job to convince you of anything, and you are free to have whatever opinion you want of Levy/ENIC, but the narrative or "we couldn't have done worse" is flimflam and you know it. It's super easy to do worse, often so much harder to do better.
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ricky2tricky4city
Tom Huddlestone
I can't believe you've bothered
ShipOfTheseus
Clint Dempsey
Bassong’s suspended from that list under off-season rules.
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....-bid-leroy-sane-manchester-city-transfer-news
at least this time the buying club tried a bid of a fair value
city didn’t like it of course
at least this time the buying club tried a bid of a fair value
city didn’t like it of course
Mooresinho
Michael Brown
Cheers matey. I was really excited about it when I did it before the end of the season, then gradually as the final games unfolded and Kane did that interview I thought why the hell did I do it!
As you say I can always keep going over it and updating it. Sol is still on there you might see as I thought keeping his face there would somewhat please the football gods but we lost the Carabao Cup final, so maybe hiding it will bring us luck!
SteveAWOL
Andy Thompson
markysimmo
Johnny nice-tits
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
But the Trust have no official ownership in the club - all they can do is echo fan sentiment to the best of their ability, although thankfully that looks to be changing now with government and public pressure on greater fan involvement in football governance.
Fan ownership as a concept is pretty well-established and completely risk-proofed already. All clubs in Germany with the exceptions of Leverkusen, Wolfburg, Hoffenheim and Leipzig are fan-owned - look at Bayern, Dortmund et al for what 'fan logic' actually looks like in practice. Quite good, as it turns out - hire good businessmen to run the club, expand infrastructure, get annual reports and a golden vote on critical issues like relocation et al. Not a bad bargain.
Leicester have won more in five years of being in the PL than we have in 20 years under ENIC - and in 10 years of their ownership, they've gone from Championship to the Premier League, from relegation struggles to Champions, have played in the EL and CL, have built one of the most expensive training facilities in England and are now expanding their (already fairly new) stadium to 40,000+.
As a club, they are naturally constrained by being in Leicester as opposed to being in London - there's an inherent limitation on revenue levels that doesn't exist for us, for West Ham, and for other London clubs. And their base when their owners took over was tiny - formerly Leicester Fosse, big new stadium but basically no history whatsoever. Far smaller than ours was when ENIC took over - we were the 4th most decorated club in England then. But despite those disadvantages, their owners have basically beaten Levy and ENIC pathetically ragged in half the time. So, really, no comparison.
And arguing about future-proofing is a bit pointless as we can't see in the future to confirm, but I'm certain Leicester are going to be secure whatever happens - their training infrastructure matches ours, their stadium is being expanded, their commercial revenue has skyrocketed, and they have trophies to show for it.
Your other examples also don't really work. You say Southampton and Everton would go into oblivion outside the PL, but that's a bit of a useless comparison, because *so would we* - if we get relegated, our enormous stadium becomes a paperweight, the interest rates go up, borrowing becomes harder, and we probably fold or get sold. Same thing for them - so what is the point bringing them up? And if you say 'ENIC have made it so we don't get relegated' - wow, what an achievement.
There's Raziel with his money trophy - hooray, we're #1 in the accounting awards, you'll never sing that, that's what football's all about you know, etc.
If you're mentioning it, it's because you know that's the rejoinder, mate. Would we really have paid top dollar for a CEO under fan ownership - yep, probably. Again, German clubs have competent CEOs, who in some cases are far smarter and more successful chairmen than the mediocre Levy has ever been - Hans-Joachim Watzke foremost among them. No reason we couldn't have done the same, which again brings it back to what those useless deadweights ENIC have actually contributed to the club - f.uck all, mate.
In 2021, we finished 7th. Out of the five you mentioned, Leicester and West Ham finished above us. And the clubs immediately below us were...Arsenal, Leeds, Villa, Everton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine. And in the past ten years, we have been in as many finals as Aston Villa, btw. Woo-hoo, what progress by the penny-pinching geniuses we're owned by. Sure glad to have them around, contributing absolutely nothing.
You know what we've done? We've charged the highest ticket prices in world football for 20 years straight, have combined that with 20 years of exploding PL revenues and have built a stadium and a training ground.
Notice - none of that requires owner involvement. A monkey in a CEO's suit could have made that binary choice - invest club revenues into a) infrastructure or b) players, and then do absolutely nothing else. Have they exploded commercial revenues? In comparison to the rest of the PL and our peers, not really - commercial income has grown about as much as you would expect with our occasional CL involvement and our base in London (again, a natural advantage most other clubs don't have). Have they made smart decisions on whom to hire, whom to fire? Not really, as 20 years of randomness show. Have they made smart decisions to invest to take us over the line when needed? F*ck no - their ambition is to run us like Levy ran his discount bargain-basement Mr.Byrite clothing store. Hooray.
We could not have done worse is not an argument I have made. We could have done much, much, much better than these miserly deadweights is one I constantly make. We don't have to fear doing worse, we can dream of better. These owners do nothing for us, mate - in twenty years all they've done is basically sit and watch the PL grow and take us with it. They have invested nothing, contributed nothing, and their job could be done by any half-competent CEO we could have hired in that time - only we wouldn't have to be owned by an odious tax exile who made his money shorting the pound on Black Wednesday and who has basically forgotten we exist outside of a line on his asset portfolio.
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Doesn't mean much if his position is "I'm refusing to play or train until you sell me to City"
But the Trust have no official ownership in the club - all they can do is echo fan sentiment to the best of their ability, although thankfully that looks to be changing now with government and public pressure on greater fan involvement in football governance.
Fan ownership as a concept is pretty well-established and completely risk-proofed already. All clubs in Germany with the exceptions of Leverkusen, Wolfburg, Hoffenheim and Leipzig are fan-owned - look at Bayern, Dortmund et al for what 'fan logic' actually looks like in practice. Quite good, as it turns out - hire good businessmen to run the club, expand infrastructure, get annual reports and a golden vote on critical issues like relocation et al. Not a bad bargain.
Leicester have won more in five years of being in the PL than we have in 20 years under ENIC - and in 10 years of their ownership, they've gone from Championship to the Premier League, from relegation struggles to Champions, have played in the EL and CL, have built one of the most expensive training facilities in England and are now expanding their (already fairly new) stadium to 40,000+.
As a club, they are naturally constrained by being in Leicester as opposed to being in London - there's an inherent limitation on revenue levels that doesn't exist for us, for West Ham, and for other London clubs. And their base when their owners took over was tiny - formerly Leicester Fosse, big new stadium but basically no history whatsoever. Far smaller than ours was when ENIC took over - we were the 4th most decorated club in England then. But despite those disadvantages, their owners have basically beaten Levy and ENIC pathetically ragged in half the time. So, really, no comparison.
And arguing about future-proofing is a bit pointless as we can't see in the future to confirm, but I'm certain Leicester are going to be secure whatever happens - their training infrastructure matches ours, their stadium is being expanded, their commercial revenue has skyrocketed, and they have trophies to show for it.
Your other examples also don't really work. You say Southampton and Everton would go into oblivion outside the PL, but that's a bit of a useless comparison, because *so would we* - if we get relegated, our enormous stadium becomes a paperweight, the interest rates go up, borrowing becomes harder, and we probably fold or get sold. Same thing for them - so what is the point bringing them up? And if you say 'ENIC have made it so we don't get relegated' - wow, what an achievement.
There's Raziel with his money trophy - hooray, we're #1 in the accounting awards, you'll never sing that, that's what football's all about you know, etc.
Would we really have paid top dollar for a CEO under fan ownership - yep, probably. Again, German clubs have competent CEOs, who in some cases are far smarter and more successful chairmen than the mediocre Levy has ever been - Hans-Joachim Watzke foremost among them. No reason we couldn't have done the same, which again brings it back to what those useless deadweights ENIC have actually contributed to the club - f.uck all, mate.
In 2021, we finished 7th. Out of the five you mentioned, Leicester and West Ham finished above us. And the clubs immediately below us were...Arsenal, Leeds, Villa, Everton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine. And in the past ten years, we have been in as many finals as Aston Villa, btw. Woo-hoo, what progress by the penny-pinching geniuses we're owned by. Sure glad to have them around, contributing absolutely nothing.
You know what we've done? We've charged the highest ticket prices in world football for 20 years straight, have combined that with 20 years of exploding PL revenues and have built a stadium and a training ground.
Notice - none of that requires owner involvement. A monkey in a CEO's suit could have made that binary choice - invest club revenues into a) infrastructure or b) players, and then do absolutely nothing else. Have they exploded commercial revenues? In comparison to the rest of the PL and our peers, not really - commercial income has grown about as much as you would expect with our occasional CL involvement and our base in London (again, a natural advantage most other clubs don't have). Have they made smart decisions on whom to hire, whom to fire? Not really, as 20 years of randomness show. Have they made smart decisions to invest to take us over the line when needed? F*ck no - their ambition is to run us like Levy ran his discount bargain-basement Mr.Byrite clothing store. Hooray.
We could not have done worse is not an argument I have made. We could have done much, much, much better than these miserly deadweights is one I constantly make. We don't have to fear doing worse, we can dream of better. These owners do nothing for us, mate - in twenty years all they've done is basically sit and watch the PL grow and take us with it. They have invested nothing, contributed nothing, and their job could be done by any half-competent CEO we could have hired in that time - only we wouldn't have to be owned by an odious tax exile who made his money shorting the pound on Black Wednesday.
Mate, it blinds you
- Germany has shown fan ownership to be a failure at it's worst, unless the goal is to create a one club league where that one club regular rapes the rest of the league both in results and taking players.
- I can pick any year to judge results, over the past 20 years the ONLY clubs to have done better than us = United, Pool, Chelsea, Arsenal (they we all already ahead by a wide margin), & City with their money (in fact we are still ahead of City in the PL points table), we are fifth for the full PL timeline, so doing much better would mean better than one of those, please tell me how fan ownership would have made that different (which club would we have done better than?).
- We for all intents and purposes can't get relegated, same as about 5 other clubs, because if it goes tits up, we can buy, we can fire managers regardless of the cost, we can try again. Clubs like Leicester are already at a loss, already dependent on owners constantly pushing money in, they aren't even on the same planet. Leicester's success has been built on Vardy, lets talk in a year or two (no top tier striker is going to go or stay there and that puts them right back into the middle of the pack)
- Some half competent CEO would have built both the best stadium and best training facilities in the country at the cost of over £1B (done with very smart financing)? your idea of half competent and mine is very different. again, since this was so easy and fudging Levy was asleep at the wheel, how many other clubs have build similar 60K capacity state of the art stadiums and training facilities in the PL (must be a big list) in last decade?
Nope, latest is still the same
- Kane hasn't turned up for training
- His team is now doing damage control, some bs about him needing to isolate post his Caribbean vacation