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FAO of crawley and all decent human beings

Gifter said:
Sorry Steph, I didn't mean it to come over like that. Thanks for the response though.

It's not the end of the world by any means, compared to everything she's gone through it is small fry.

What I just wanted to convey was that there is a coping mechanism involved which leads to looking down (IMO), it is natural and needed, but prone to getting exaggerated and twisted if we make it to central to our being.

She's doing well though, the world would really be in funk if people felt they couldn't ridicule my posts because of where my daughter is at! (as long as they don't ridicule my daughter of course!)
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Good stuff mate, glad to hear...and I think your comments are pretty spot on.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Actually I don't. It's only an expression of mirth at some of the deluded types on here. They are a constant source of amusement for me. How anyone with even a passing understanding of the British electoral sytem can believe that UKIP, or any other minor party can aspire to government is beyond me
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I'll have you know that the Lib Dems were a minor party not long ago - now they're making tea for the Conservatives.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Actually I don't. It's only an expression of mirth at some of the deluded types on here. They are a constant source of amusement for me. How anyone with even a passing understanding of the British electoral sytem can believe that UKIP, or any other minor party can aspire to government is beyond me.

I've already detailed the reasons in the UKIP thread, but I'll rehash them here.

1. Funding. Whilst Labour and the Tories are bankrolled to the tune of millions of pounds, what are UKIP relying on?

2. Talent. To be taken seriously as an alternative government, a party needs heavy weight candidates in winnable seats. Who has the UKIP attracted and by this, I mean with a national reputation in law, the unions, industry, the arts, or dare I say it sport?

3. The electoral system. The first past the post system will pretty much result in nothing more than UKIP candidates drawing support away from the Tories in marginal seats. Ironically, the far right supporters of UKIP will be helping re-elect a Labour Government. Something I doubt they would be happy with. Only a preferential voting system will afford them the chance to win seats in any number and even then they would likely need to finish in first or second in the ballot on first preferences. This is not going to happen in many seats in a general election, when contesting against Labour, the Conservatives and Lib-Dems.

4. The established parties will adjust policy wise to wedge the UKIP out. As has happened in the past, the Conservatives may well shift further to the right on some issues. Labour did this during the Thatcher years when Kinnock pretty much trashed all of Labour's old platform. When this occurs, ginger groups like UKIP will lose relevance.

UKIP may well win seats in bi-elections and the like and they may pick up the odd seat in a general election too, but actually forming government? About as likely as Cardiff City winning the Champions League in 2015. Get your bets on lads.,

However, where UKIP can exert some influence is in the instance of a hung parliament. Perhaps they could horse trade support on the floor of the house in return for the government passing some of their legislation.
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A lot of what you say here is correct. Probably even most of it.

However, I do think you may be under-estimating the depth of feeling amongst the British electorate.
There are examples coming to light from right across the political spectrum of voters who are tired of the same old stuff coming from the same old people, and how they feel totally ignored. By all sides.

This, I feel, could see a far greater change to the political landscape than many people are prepared to admit.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Actually I don't. It's only an expression of mirth at some of the deluded types on here. They are a constant source of amusement for me. How anyone with even a passing understanding of the British electoral sytem can believe that UKIP, or any other minor party can aspire to government is beyond me.

I've already detailed the reasons in the UKIP thread, but I'll rehash them here.

1. Funding. Whilst Labour and the Tories are bankrolled to the tune of millions of pounds, what are UKIP relying on?

2. Talent. To be taken seriously as an alternative government, a party needs heavy weight candidates in winnable seats. Who has the UKIP attracted and by this, I mean with a national reputation in law, the unions, industry, the arts, or dare I say it sport?

3. The electoral system. The first past the post system will pretty much result in nothing more than UKIP candidates drawing support away from the Tories in marginal seats. Ironically, the far right supporters of UKIP will be helping re-elect a Labour Government. Something I doubt they would be happy with. Only a preferential voting system will afford them the chance to win seats in any number and even then they would likely need to finish in first or second in the ballot on first preferences. This is not going to happen in many seats in a general election, when contesting against Labour, the Conservatives and Lib-Dems.

4. The established parties will adjust policy wise to wedge the UKIP out. As has happened in the past, the Conservatives may well shift further to the right on some issues. Labour did this during the Thatcher years when Kinnock pretty much trashed all of Labour's old platform. When this occurs, ginger groups like UKIP will lose relevance.

UKIP may well win seats in bi-elections and the like and they may pick up the odd seat in a general election too, but actually forming government? About as likely as Cardiff City winning the Champions League in 2015. Get your bets on lads.,

However, where UKIP can exert some influence is in the instance of a hung parliament. Perhaps they could horse trade support on the floor of the house in return for the government passing some of their legislation.
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Crawley said:
A lot of what you say here is correct. Probably even most of it.

However, I do think you may be under-estimating the depth of feeling amongst the British electorate.
There are examples coming to light from right across the political spectrum of voters who are tired of the same old stuff coming from the same old people, and how they feel totally ignored. By all sides.

This, I feel, could see a far greater change to the political landscape than many people are prepared to admit.
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I don't generally get involved in online political debates and I've done more than my fair share in recent years and you just end up going round in circles. Left/Right it's actually all a load of bollox . I'm more in the George Carlin school of thought that all main stream parties are wings of the same bird and don't give a fudge about you or me . They represent their own careers and their leaders, the prime minsters, presidents, are not elected but selected by ruling elites as are all the top jobs in government and the financial industry. Bilderberg meeting in Watford anytime soon I hear.

I think, Gilzean you're doing what most people are doing and viewing things from past experience and how you see the landscape at present. I suppose it's understandable but this has you thinking in the confines of the box and has you believing that this is how it remains for all time. I can only inform you and others, that the opinion of the masses can change rapidly if the economic conditions have deteriorated to a point where government is seen as the oppressor .

I'm not long been back from Cyprus , yeah Cyprus , that's the little island on the south east corner of Europe. It's the island where not ten years ago the people were dancing in the streets as their entry into the EU was being finalised. Now, ten years on , they've recently had the international banksters and their own government dip their thieving hands into the savings of the people. Do we think it can't happen here?
Do you think the people will vote for the two main parties in Cyprus ,? All I were hearing whilst out there were that they should leave the EU and they will now vote communist , nationalist etc if that's what it takes.

Already , across Europe there are large anti government demonstrations taking place with some ending in violence. In Spain recently, the police were using their truncheons on public sector workers (mainly against firemen) and the unemployed as they were marching against the austerity measures.

This is not like the 80's and the SDLP. I believe that political parties outside of the mainstream will flourish in these times, just as they did in the thirties across Europe.

Here's a film by the Money Week magzazine . Okay it could be viewed as scaremongering if you want to see that way and we can also see that it's advertising for magazine subscribers . But there is a lot of truth in what the video has to say and I'm in no doubt about it , there is a financial storm on the horizon and all this austerity and hardship we are presently seeing is only the beginning.

http://pro.moneyweek.com/myk-eob/LMYKP529/
 
Apparently last night the were anti facist(GHod knows what they were doing there) protesting outside and shouting out soe of the quite old people going there to listen to the debate. I really do not understand the far left they are as big as nutters as the far right. You do not like what someone has to say so instead of debate with them you go there and try to stop them from speaking.

My education was not that full but i know that is exactly what hitler(the true fascist) did. Some absolute scum in this country, the EDL and the anti facist seem to me to just be out for a big punch up.
 
scaramanga said:
I'll have you know that the Lib Dems were a minor party not long ago - now they're making tea for the Conservatives.
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Really? I thought they formed majority governments in the 19th and early 20th centuries. This is based on the idea that the Social Democrats did not merge, they were absorbed. Agree with the second part though.
 
Crawley said:
A lot of what you say here is correct. Probably even most of it.

However, I do think you may be under-estimating the depth of feeling amongst the British electorate.
There are examples coming to light from right across the political spectrum of voters who are tired of the same old stuff coming from the same old people, and how they feel totally ignored. By all sides.

This, I feel, could see a far greater change to the political landscape than many people are prepared to admit.
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Crawley you could be right, but often people such as this cannot even give definitive reasons for their unease, so they protest vote, but their actions are not sustained long term. Of most importance is the question of funding.
 
ArnieArdiles said:
I don't generally get involved in online political debates and I've done more than my fair share in recent years and you just end up going round in circles. Left/Right it's actually all a load of bollox . I'm more in the George Carlin school of thought that all main stream parties are wings of the same bird and don't give a fudge about you or me . They represent their own careers and their leaders, the prime minsters, presidents, are not elected but selected by ruling elites as are all the top jobs in government and the financial industry. Bilderberg meeting in Watford anytime soon I hear.

I think, Gilzean you're doing what most people are doing and viewing things from past experience and how you see the landscape at present. I suppose it's understandable but this has you thinking in the confines of the box and has you believing that this is how it remains for all time. I can only inform you and others, that the opinion of the masses can change rapidly if the economic conditions have deteriorated to a point where government is seen as the oppressor .

I'm not long been back from Cyprus , yeah Cyprus , that's the little island on the south east corner of Europe. It's the island where not ten years ago the people were dancing in the streets as their entry into the EU was being finalised. Now, ten years on , they've recently had the international banksters and their own government dip their thieving hands into the savings of the people. Do we think it can't happen here?
Do you think the people will vote for the two main parties in Cyprus ,? All I were hearing whilst out there were that they should leave the EU and they will now vote communist , nationalist etc if that's what it takes.

Already , across Europe there are large anti government demonstrations taking place with some ending in violence. In Spain recently, the police were using their truncheons on public sector workers (mainly against firemen) and the unemployed as they were marching against the austerity measures.

This is not like the 80's and the SDLP. I believe that political parties outside of the mainstream will flourish in these times, just as they did in the thirties across Europe.

Here's a film by the Money Week magzazine . Okay it could be viewed as scaremongering if you want to see that way and we can also see that it's advertising for magazine subscribers . But there is a lot of truth in what the video has to say and I'm in no doubt about it , there is a financial storm on the horizon and all this austerity and hardship we are presently seeing is only the beginning.

http://pro.moneyweek.com/myk-eob/LMYKP529/
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Good point, but most of those countries have always been volitile politically. They do not use first past the post voting systems necessararily. Will these wild swings in support be sustained? The British party system has been in place for well over a hundred years. Here I'm referring to Labour,Tories and Lib-Dems. The Labour Party were reduced to about thirteen members after Ramsay Macdonald quit and eveyone said they were finished, but they came to power again in 1945. People saw the (sham) nationalist government as a new way and what happened? They disappeared, for the Conservatives to resume normal service. I don't think it's about thinking inside the box, but rather recognising stark realities. Personally I would prefer a return to a strong and stabile two party system, where there was real choice between them. Minority parties almost always lead to political instabilty. I'm an historian and generally take an historical perspective, as in my view, this is where the lessons of modern life lie.
 
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Gilzeantoscore said:
Crawley you could be right, but often people such as this cannot even give definitive reasons for their unease, so they protest vote, but their actions are not sustained long term. Of most importance is the question of funding.
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Spot on. The most dangerous bit of this currently, aside from the very nature of it, is that we have probably one of the worst-educated generations ever, a generation who are spoon-fed soundbites, and a generation who don't even get a spoon-feeding from a variety of different places! They choose which spoon to feed off! And depending on the nature of the sound-bite, their 'protest vote' goes to nefarious sources...
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
What has that got to do with Labour? More an issue for the donor. Do you think donors to other parties have not exploited this loophole? Personally ALL donations to parties should be banned and elections should be given capped funding from the public purse. This would solve a huge range of problems in the democratic process.
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Agree
 
japenesegardenlover said:
Hmm the gift that keeps on giving http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ations-because-it-has-done-nothing-wrong.html wonder what they would be saying if the roles were reversed.

This is the thing with labour, a lot of what they come out with for a fairer society appealss to me, it is a shame they like their supporters are a bunch of hypocrites and full of envy and hate for people who have made a success or inherited.
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To a degree I can see why in SOME cases (corporations who don't do their bit, etc), but to hate someone for doing well for themselves (or being born into a situation of wealth) is simply not good enough, and usually equates with some failure of themselves. It's a shame people get bogged down with that sort of crap...not productive at all!!! And destructive to yourself.
 
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