Eric Dier

[scaramanga]

One of those managers was sacked because our chairman decided that his fantasy was available and thus took a cheap opportunity to sack him. It was his greatest mistake. Many to this day cannot bring themselves to admit it. Even if you think he had to go, that was not the right time or the right manager to bring in, especially with Tuchel on shaky ground at PSG...anyway...

Why was Timmeh Levy's fantasy?

 

[MKSpur]

Why was Timmeh Levy's fantasy?

We had an overstock of gilets that needed shifting

 

[Jurgen the German]

Answers in bold-face below.

All due respect Steff, this is the sort of defensive response that just proves @papaspur’s point. I don’t think anyone has singled out Dier to say the problems with our defence are exclusively Dier’s fault. Our defensive unit has gone backwards since Toby and Jan. Last season we couldn’t hold on to leads regardless of who we played at CB. Every CB caught flack; Toby for being old and past it, Sanchez and Dier for not being good enough on the ball, Davies for being too slow and inconsistent and Sanchez for being too weak. Let’s face it, none of our CB’s were good enough or we would have finished higher in the league. And this season we are leaking goals. I think Sanchez needs to be shipped out personally. Dier for me is a good squad option but honestly I don’t think he’s consistent enough to be a top CB but that’s just me. He makes too many mistakes. On the whole so far this season he has been ok/good, I’d say he was at fault for Vitesse’s first goal last week but on the whole pretty good. But again I don’t think he’s ultimately good enough if we are aspiring to be a top 4 side again, sorry.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Why was Timmeh Levy's fantasy?

Because even Levy knew he was better than AVB (as his results proved! ;o)

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think Dier has been better this season than he was last season and has done alright overall so far. I said last year that Dier would probably benefit massively from playing centre back in the Championship for a season as it seems to me that he has never really learnt how to position himself as a centre back and in many ways he is learning on the job for us which we can't afford if we want to be successful. It may be that under Conte he can continue improve his positioning this season and Dier can become good enough to play at CB for a club that can challenge for trophies.

As well as his positional sense I think Dier has one other main weakness as a centre back, he seems to be poor defending balls coming in from out wide, often being behind his man, in no-man's land nowhere near his man or jumping underneath the ball, this exposes us on corners and also when we play against teams that like to get the ball out wide and get crosses in (low or high).

I do think that Conte will end up replacing him in our first choice team, as in a three man defence you need all three players to be comfortable on the ball and Dier is the least comfortable on the ball of all our first choice players. I think Dier will be retained in the squad however. Though I think Conte will probably have a look at both Dier and Sanchez and decide which of the two he will keep as a squad player. IMO Sanchez probably has a little more to work with but there's not much in it.

 

[papaspur]

You set it up to deliver your result. Should we keep quiet if we disagree? I dislike that sort of positioning and frankly think it's cheap. Besides, 'X player' is rarely repeatedly criticized in the same way.

No, just use non-janky logic (ie., "he was good enough for the past managers, he's good enough for us now" is a bad argument). And yes, I did "set it up" because it's predictable behavior; you and a few others willingly chose to bite. At the end of the day, we both want to see Spurs win, right? (or at least to see them stop bricking the bed)

 

[papaspur]

All due respect Steff, this is the sort of defensive response that just proves @papaspur’s point. I don’t think anyone has singled out Dier to say the problems with our defence are exclusively Dier’s fault. Our defensive unit has gone backwards since Toby and Jan. Last season we couldn’t hold on to leads regardless of who we played at CB. Every CB caught flack; Toby for being old and past it, Sanchez and Dier for not being good enough on the ball, Davies for being too slow and inconsistent and Sanchez for being too weak. Let’s face it, none of our CB’s were good enough or we would have finished higher in the league. And this season we are leaking goals. I think Sanchez needs to be shipped out personally. Dier for me is a good squad option but honestly I don’t think he’s consistent enough to be a top CB but that’s just me. He makes too many mistakes. On the whole so far this season he has been ok/good, I’d say he was at fault for Vitesse’s first goal last week but on the whole pretty good. But again I don’t think he’s ultimately good enough if we are aspiring to be a top 4 side again, sorry.

Because Dier has been playing more than Sanchez this season in the PL, he's had more scrutiny of his performances. Just want to make it clear why I'm in the Dier thread complaining about our center backs instead of doing so in the Davinson thread.

I do agree with your assessment of our back line, and I did mention Hugo is a part of that. I think he's been here for so long and has been fantastic for us but maybe he's become slightly jaded.

 

[thfcsteff]

All due respect Steff, this is the sort of defensive response that just proves @papaspur’s point. I don’t think anyone has singled out Dier to say the problems with our defence are exclusively Dier’s fault. Our defensive unit has gone backwards since Toby and Jan. Last season we couldn’t hold on to leads regardless of who we played at CB. Every CB caught flack; Toby for being old and past it, Sanchez and Dier for not being good enough on the ball, Davies for being too slow and inconsistent and Sanchez for being too weak. Let’s face it, none of our CB’s were good enough or we would have finished higher in the league. And this season we are leaking goals. I think Sanchez needs to be shipped out personally. Dier for me is a good squad option but honestly I don’t think he’s consistent enough to be a top CB but that’s just me. He makes too many mistakes. On the whole so far this season he has been ok/good, I’d say he was at fault for Vitesse’s first goal last week but on the whole pretty good. But again I don’t think he’s ultimately good enough if we are aspiring to be a top 4 side again, sorry.

Good stuff. A set of viewpoints worthy of discussion. However, with due respect back, I have seen (again recently) Dier singled out as 'the reason' for not only defensive woes over the last two seasons, but our 'decline' over several. And it is to those comments I was responding.

To address your comments about last season -and this is a simple premise IMO...if you set up to sit deep and play counter attacking football, you will invite more pressure onto your defense than if you play higher up the pitch with a possession/close down and press game. This is not rocket science I know, however why it is never factored in conversations about our defensive record under Mourinho is beyond me.

What I think is interesting is that when the entire side was prepared to put a shift in the first three games of the season, the defense -and all its culprits- held up just fine. I agree, if we want to win, upgrades will be needed (not just back there FWIW - I have offered this opinion before). However, with the paucity of press/effort from the front on back, our defense did, indeed, come under extra scrutiny. Whilst introducing two new players back there! Of course it was going to get weird.

It is no coincidence that Conte's first game in charge saw some people get their arses booted hard, worked harder and saw him put a system in place with demands at Goodison. Organization and effort = clean sheet.

No need to apologize for the opinion, and I understand yours was more figurative.

 

[thfcsteff]

No, just use non-janky logic (ie., "he was good enough for the past managers, he's good enough for us now" is a bad argument). And yes, I did "set it up" because it's predictable behavior; you and a few others willingly chose to bite. At the end of the day, we both want to see Spurs win, right? (or at least to see them stop bricking the bed)

I'll be honest here...I don't like to think I 'bait' people. I'd rather offer straight discussion. I don't especially appreciate it. Your definition of 'janky logic' comes down to the only facts we have available; that people in positions to know made the same choice. It is not the sole component of the 'argument' but is a salient one. I think it is interesting that in all the over-wrought analysis of our defensive woes, nobody mentions the style of play we adopted under Mourinho as a factor. In fact, fixing our identity as a team is THE most important step right now. Under Mourinho we lost both our identity and way; it confuses players. Nuno tried to re-establish both, and I feel Conte will absolutely demand it. Thus we will be a far tighter and less 'generous' side for it, because these are all very, very good players who were part of a consistent top 4 squad. I agree that the time has come to make that final step in terms of a few key areas, and I believe Conte's style and demands will force that issue, as some will fall by the wayside (for example, I feel unless Moura can retrain as a wing-back his days might well be limited to impact appearances).

We shall see. As for this season, please refer to my reply to Jurgen. You might not agree but it is undeniable.

Ironic that we both share the same avatar (and love of?) the man in it! We'll find our way again mate ;-)

 

[thfcsteff]

I think Dier has been better this season than he was last season and has done alright overall so far. I said last year that Dier would probably benefit massively from playing centre back in the Championship for a season as it seems to me that he has never really learnt how to position himself as a centre back and in many ways he is learning on the job for us which we can't afford if we want to be successful. It may be that under Conte he can continue improve his positioning this season and Dier can become good enough to play at CB for a club that can challenge for trophies.

As well as his positional sense I think Dier has one other main weakness as a centre back, he seems to be poor defending balls coming in from out wide, often being behind his man, in no-man's land nowhere near his man or jumping underneath the ball, this exposes us on corners and also when we play against teams that like to get the ball out wide and get crosses in (low or high).

I do think that Conte will end up replacing him in our first choice team, as in a three man defence you need all three players to be comfortable on the ball and Dier is the least comfortable on the ball of all our first choice players. I think Dier will be retained in the squad however. Though I think Conte will probably have a look at both Dier and Sanchez and decide which of the two he will keep as a squad player. IMO Sanchez probably has a little more to work with but there's not much in it.

A fair assessment. I think it will come down to how much Conte might view Dier as a 'Terry' figure in the squad. I thought Sanchez did himself no harm with his cameo at Goodison.
One thing I know with Conte is he will demand that the entire team works and does not leave any teammate/area of the pitch exposed or under siege.

 

[papaspur]

I'll be honest here...I don't like to think I 'bait' people. I'd rather offer straight discussion. I don't especially appreciate it. Your definition of 'janky logic' comes down to the only facts we have available; that people in positions to know made the same choice. It is not the sole component of the 'argument' but is a salient one. I think it is interesting that in all the over-wrought analysis of our defensive woes, nobody mentions the style of play we adopted under Mourinho as a factor. In fact, fixing our identity as a team is THE most important step right now. Under Mourinho we lost both our identity and way; it confuses players. Nuno tried to re-establish both, and I feel Conte will absolutely demand it. Thus we will be a far tighter and less 'generous' side for it, because these are all very, very good players who were part of a consistent top 4 squad. I agree that the time has come to make that final step in terms of a few key areas, and I believe Conte's style and demands will force that issue, as some will fall by the wayside (for example, I feel unless Moura can retrain as a wing-back his days might well be limited to impact appearances).

We shall see. As for this season, please refer to my reply to Jurgen. You might not agree but it is undeniable.

Ironic that we both share the same avatar (and love of?) the man in it! We'll find our way again mate ;-)

I put the "bait" part in quotes because I was being sarcastic And to be fair, plenty of players get loads of criticism here (GLC, Tanguy... Dele is like Dier in that he has lots of mixed opinions, although those seem to have shifted lately), it's not only Dier who receives stick.

I'm all about the discussion too, but I did feel that some of you constructed an aura around Dier that made him untouchable to criticism. This reminds me of the Sissoko thread for that one season he played really well... lots of people came into that thread to take turns bricking on him while many others were offering praise to his work-rate.

Anyway, like I said, we should all want Spurs to win, and if Dier is one of the players to help us win then that's great... I just don't think he's a top-4 level player in his consistency. If Conte can get that out of him, then he's a genius. Dier did play a lot under Poch, but in midfield for the most part... maybe that's where he should be playing?

With all that said, my intent is not to play the man, but instead to point out certain logical fallacies in people's rhetoric and find out why some posters here get so defensive about specific players.

p.s. i do miss poch... i don't feel right changing my avatar lol

 

[monkeybarry]

Why was Timmeh Levy's fantasy?

Because Mr Gilet is the best a man can get.

 

[DubSpur]

I put the "bait" part in quotes because I was being sarcastic And to be fair, plenty of players get loads of criticism here (GLC, Tanguy... Dele is like Dier in that he has lots of mixed opinions, although those seem to have shifted lately), it's not only Dier who receives stick.

I'm all about the discussion too, but I did feel that some of you constructed an aura around Dier that made him untouchable to criticism. This reminds me of the Sissoko thread for that one season he played really well... lots of people came into that thread to take turns bricking on him while many others were offering praise to his work-rate.

Anyway, like I said, we should all want Spurs to win, and if Dier is one of the players to help us win then that's great... I just don't think he's a top-4 level player in his consistency. If Conte can get that out of him, then he's a genius. Dier did play a lot under Poch, but in midfield for the most part... maybe that's where he should be playing?

With all that said, my intent is not to play the man, but instead to point out certain logical fallacies in people's rhetoric and find out why some posters here get so defensive about specific players.

p.s. i do miss poch... i don't feel right changing my avatar lol

I'd say it's more people getting defensive because of over the top criticism to certain players that is even given when they play well or in Dier's case constantly blaming him for goals conceded that he wasn't at fault for e.g. the second goal against Vitesse.

 

[parklane1]

I'd say it's more people getting defensive because of over the top criticism to certain players that is even given when they play well or in Dier's case constantly blaming him for goals conceded that he wasn't at fault for e.g. the second goal against Vitesse.

I don't know how to use the like button.

 

[papaspur]

I'd say it's more people getting defensive because of over the top criticism to certain players that is even given when they play well or in Dier's case constantly blaming him for goals conceded that he wasn't at fault for e.g. the second goal against Vitesse.

IMO, the disagreement is roughly over whether Dier is a top-4 player or not. And all I have really been saying is that he's not a top-4 player (again, just my opinion based on his performances for the past few seasons). All the talk about systems and managers do have some effect, but I don't think Dier reads the game as well as other higher-rated defenders. I don't think he needs to be sold though, he could be a very useful squad option in CD/DM/RB. I don't think he's a bad guy either, but I won't forget that tackle he made on Son in training that almost broke his leg.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

IMO, the disagreement is roughly over whether Dier is a top-4 player or not. And all I have really been saying is that he's not a top-4 player (again, just my opinion based on his performances for the past few seasons). All the talk about systems and managers do have some effect, but I don't think Dier reads the game as well as other higher-rated defenders. I don't think he needs to be sold though, he could be a very useful squad option in CD/DM/RB. I don't think he's a bad guy either, but I won't forget that tackle he made on Son in training that almost broke his leg.

Is Craig Dawson a top 4 defender?

 

[Bishop]

Is Craig Dawson a top 4 defender?

Has Craig Dawson ever played for a team that has finished in the top 4? Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

We know what qualities are required for a top 4 quality defender because there was a period we regularly did so. Does Dier match those standards? How does he compare to those teams that have actually finished in the top4 in recent seasons? If we do think he is comparable, he's in the lower bottom tier of all of those places based on the evidence of his play.

Maybe Conte's system can overcome his shortcomings but it would very much be a system maximising his strengths and diminishing his weaknesses rather than him actually being an all around top quality defender. Which can be fine if you find the groupings that work. I'd rather just get a quality defender that works well across a number of systems.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Good stuff. A set of viewpoints worthy of discussion. However, with due respect back, I have seen (again recently) Dier singled out as 'the reason' for not only defensive woes over the last two seasons, but our 'decline' over several. And it is to those comments I was responding.

To address your comments about last season -and this is a simple premise IMO...if you set up to sit deep and play counter attacking football, you will invite more pressure onto your defense than if you play higher up the pitch with a possession/close down and press game. This is not rocket science I know, however why it is never factored in conversations about our defensive record under Mourinho is beyond me.

What I think is interesting is that when the entire side was prepared to put a shift in the first three games of the season, the defense -and all its culprits- held up just fine. I agree, if we want to win, upgrades will be needed (not just back there FWIW - I have offered this opinion before). However, with the paucity of press/effort from the front on back, our defense did, indeed, come under extra scrutiny. Whilst introducing two new players back there! Of course it was going to get weird.

It is no coincidence that Conte's first game in charge saw some people get their arses booted hard, worked harder and saw him put a system in place with demands at Goodison. Organization and effort = clean sheet.

No need to apologize for the opinion, and I understand yours was more figurative.

I’d agree completely about the tactics Jose employed hindered. If you sit back and invite pressure, the more possession and chances you concede the more likely you are to concede a goal, that’s just common sense to most people. Constant pressure leads to mistakes as well. But Jose has always set his teams up in this manner, if we had better defenders we would kept more clean sheets.

I am excited to see the effect Conte will hopefully have. There are no guarantees in football but by bringing him we have given ourselves a better chance of succeeding than we had under Jose and Nuno. The problem I’ve had with Dier is his tendency to make mistakes. Granted he has cut down on them so far this season and every defender makes them but for me he makes too many. He can be having a 8/10 game but he’s still susceptible to errors. I’m judging this on his entire 7 and half year career at Spurs. Although I do accept players go on to prove people wrong. For example I was never a fan of Danny Rose until about halfway through Poch’s first season. I thought he was a championship level player but he proved me wrong. I hope Dier can do the same.

 

[Gazza]

A fair assessment. I think it will come down to how much Conte might view Dier as a 'Terry' figure in the squad. I thought Sanchez did himself no harm with his cameo at Goodison.
One thing I know with Conte is he will demand that the entire team works and does not leave any teammate/area of the pitch exposed or under siege.

Comparing John Terry with Dier is poo poo, John Terry was a fine player but is a terrible human, Dier is an average defender but a nice human. Ability wise we may as well be comparing Maradonna with Jonjo Shelvy.

 

[thfcsteff]

I put the "bait" part in quotes because I was being sarcastic And to be fair, plenty of players get loads of criticism here (GLC, Tanguy... Dele is like Dier in that he has lots of mixed opinions, although those seem to have shifted lately), it's not only Dier who receives stick.

I'm all about the discussion too, but I did feel that some of you constructed an aura around Dier that made him untouchable to criticism. This reminds me of the Sissoko thread for that one season he played really well... lots of people came into that thread to take turns bricking on him while many others were offering praise to his work-rate.

Anyway, like I said, we should all want Spurs to win, and if Dier is one of the players to help us win then that's great... I just don't think he's a top-4 level player in his consistency. If Conte can get that out of him, then he's a genius. Dier did play a lot under Poch, but in midfield for the most part... maybe that's where he should be playing?

With all that said, my intent is not to play the man, but instead to point out certain logical fallacies in people's rhetoric and find out why some posters here get so defensive about specific players.

p.s. i do miss poch... i don't feel right changing my avatar lol

I am stuck with mine and it feels OK, albeit Antonio would be fine with me too…but yeah…Poch…maestro for us.

I’ll bow out of Dier chat. I have said plenty over the years, analysed his performances since he arrived and we shall see what Conte needs. That is all that really matters.