AVB out or not?

[Kingdawson]

i still believe we should judge him at the end of the season, unless the next run of games are equally appalling and/or it looks as though the dressing room is not behind him.

agree.

 

[scaramanga]

How can you find that amusing ? United have been average at best this season.
It's not GHod given that we should beat them .But people have had enough
Reading your posts you have some problem with people being sick of the dross being served up under AVB .

It's far reaching beyond this forum the dislike for the way the sides playing.
Who cares about intellect etc that's rubbish football is a simple game and even the simplest of minds can work out we have been poor under AVB.

Nobody is happy with the style of football, it's just that some are under the belief that this is the final point in AVB's strategy to turn us into an ugly, boring team. Everything AVB has ever said about football and everything anyone with any kind of inside knowledge has ever said/written about AVB suggests that's untrue.

So my problem isn't that people are sick of the way we play, it's that people are confirming their own bias completely against all the evidence that is pointing the other way.

As for Utd, they may not be at their best but they are still pretty much the same team that won the PL last season, they still are almost certainly going to finish top 3 and there's no embarrassment in losing to them for any team in the world.

 

[Hotspur]

There's no evidence of that at all. This is the first time he's in his second season at a club.
He's a manager with an agent who was touting his name round Napoli and PSG last summer.

Exactly this.

 

[Kingdawson]

AVB has been in 3 managerial jobs:

Porto = Didn't see them enough to make a judgement on their style of play.

Chelsea = Boring brand of football with a bunch of talented and creative players.

Tottenham = Very boring brand of football with a bunch of talented and creative players.


Who cares what AVB says or what is written about him? we can make a judgement based on what we've seen and what we've seen shows he plays a boring and negative brand of football. What evidence is pointing the other way? i don't get it.

 

[scaramanga]

AVB has been in 3 managerial jobs:

Porto = Didn't see them enough to make a judgement on their style of play.

Chelsea = Boring brand of football with a bunch of talented and creative players.

Tottenham = Very boring brand of football with a bunch of talented and creative players.


Who cares what AVB says or what is written about him? we can make a judgement based on what we've seen and what we've seen shows he plays a boring and negative brand of football. What evidence is pointing the other way? i don't get it.

I'm sure you don't.

The evidence on such a small sample size could be pointing to all manner of things - it's only your bias that causes you to believe that the only thing it can point to is AVB's apparent desire for ugly football. Has it occurred to you that ugly football could be caused by an incomplete build of a team? Or that it might be caused by none of the required creative players being available? Or a player that this year's plans were built around changing his mind at the last minute during the summer? Or being roundly attacked by your own 'fans' because you're not the guy they wanted in charge?

 

[Kingdawson]

I'm sure you don't.

The evidence on such a small sample size could be pointing to all manner of things - it's only your bias that causes you to believe that the only thing it can point to is AVB's apparent desire for ugly football. Has it occurred to you that ugly football could be caused by an incomplete build of a team? Or that it might be caused by none of the required creative players being available? Or a player that this year's plans were built around changing his mind at the last minute during the summer? Or being roundly attacked by your own 'fans' because you're not the guy they wanted in charge?

Just as easy as my apparent "bias" leads me to think we play a boring brand of football due to the managers "apparent desire for ugly football".....your bias leads you to believe it's to do with other factors like the numerous ones you've mentioned. The sad thing is you don't get that though and instead continuously choose to label people as "bias" or "witch hunters".

In reality i think AVB would prefer we played nicer football but it isn't that big a concern to him. As long as we stick to the rigid structure he has implemented and keep possession he's opinion (imo) is that we will eventually break teams down but my opinion is that it will not work for a sustained period.

 

[scaramanga]

Just as easy as my apparent "bias" leads me to think we play a boring brand of football due to the managers "apparent desire for ugly football".....your bias leads you to believe it's to do with other factors like the numerous ones you've mentioned. The sad thing is you don't get that though and instead continuously choose to label people as "bias" or "witch hunters".

In reality i think AVB would prefer we played nicer football but it isn't that big a concern to him. As long as we stick to the rigid structure he has implemented and keep possession he's opinion (imo) is that we will eventually break teams down but my opinion is that it will not work for a sustained period.

So once the work is complete he is able to concentrate on that leading to........

 

[unit kaboom]

Great post...the only thing that changes it is if he has lost the players, which will become apparent if agents start leaking **** to the rags over the coming days...

This is the worrying part though. Most of the players body language was AWFUL for the last 40 mins, that isnt acceptable and reminded me as im sure it did others of ramos's last 8 games.
I'll be totally honest i wasn't 100% about AVB's appointment, part of me loved the idea of a young, forward thinking manager who could really mould us into a modern side and take us forward. The other half looked at his Chelsea debacle and and was very concerned.
As a man he has totally won me over, i like his calm, intelligent manner with the press and although not being blown away by the football last year that their were clearly signs of him building a solid team that really fought for each other.
This year has shown me glimpses of what i felt could become a beast of a side, controlled possession, strong all over, surly it was just a matter of time until the creative players we have signed started to click ...then watch us go.
Ive tried to ignore the dodgy few results this season, and the suspicious decisions....(I think he has handled Lamela poorly being one, constantly played out of position, has a motm game dosnt play next, gets first start on wrong side away at Emirates Marketing Project)
But then yesterday happens, was that not the game to maintain the system? Another performance like Everton away and we would have been fine. But he seemed to open up the system, Sandro was on his own and you could see the 2nd goal coming every attack city made...yet he changed nothing. Then when 3 down at half time he brings ADE out of the cold and goes 442?? Why this game, because he may have something to prove to city?? was that really the logic? Then he scraps it after 10 mins and another 2 goals conceded and goes back to the system but this time with Sig in the hole.
Im sorry but none of these decisions seemed assured, they seemed panicky and that isnt what you want from your manager and surely contributed to the players poor attitude....almost like they were thinking does he know what he's doing.
Im not saying sack him but if he loses this squad even slightly, bearing in mind there are so many new faces who probably dont have much loyalty towards him, then we are in for a painful next month!

 

[djp82]

Nobody is happy with the style of football, it's just that some are under the belief that this is the final point in AVB's strategy to turn us into an ugly, boring team. Everything AVB has ever said about football and everything anyone with any kind of inside knowledge has ever said/written about AVB suggests that's untrue.

So my problem isn't that people are sick of the way we play, it's that people are confirming their own bias completely against all the evidence that is pointing the other way.

As for Utd, they may not be at their best but they are still pretty much the same team that won the PL last season, they still are almost certainly going to finish top 3 and there's no embarrassment in losing to them for any team in the world.

Ok but the evidence is pointing to a regression in results and style regardless of bias . But for me we are going backwards as a side.its not all AVB fault we keep selling our best players etc but the system or tactics clearly don't work with this group of players it was evident last season too we were a one man band almost it's clear to see.

 

[NWND]

I'm sure you don't.

The evidence on such a small sample size could be pointing to all manner of things - it's only your bias that causes you to believe that the only thing it can point to is AVB's apparent desire for ugly football. Has it occurred to you that ugly football could be caused by an incomplete build of a team? Or that it might be caused by none of the required creative players being available? Or a player that this year's plans were built around changing his mind at the last minute during the summer? Or being roundly attacked by your own 'fans' because you're not the guy they wanted in charge?

Hahahaha you really are pushing it here. All of the evidence I have seen with MY OWN EYES is that AVB prefers rigid systems, players playing rigid, safety first football and the only times his teams are successful or watchable, are when he inherits world super-star players like Bale or Falcao!

I mean many people write crap in books, Tony Pulis says his reputation for long ball and physical teams is undeserved! Really?

For me the boring football made me want him out but I'm becoming shell-shocked by the perfoances and results.

There is no way in the summer I saw the level of performance and results we are actually seeing I mean it's as bad as some of the worst performances of the Gross era!

 

[scaramanga]

Ok but the evidence is pointing to a regression in results and style regardless of bias . But for me we are going backwards as a side.its not all AVB fault we keep selling our best players etc but the system or tactics clearly don't work with this group of players it was evident last season too we were a one man band almost it's clear to see.

I think there's more to be optimistic about, but that's all just opinion and we won't convince each other to change that.

I'm sure I saw an image showing that we have more points at this point this season than we did last. At that point things seemed to be going horribly wrong with us conceding last minute goals all the time. AVB worked out what the problem was and how to fix it (took a little while, admittedly) and did so.

 

[Kingdawson]

So once the work is complete he is able to concentrate on that leading to........

You're sort of missing the point (maybe because you ignored the rest of the post). The work will never be complete imo....it doesn't work imo...it's a flawed tactic that will not work for a sustained period.

If there's any way to go back to my posts last year after the 2 home performances against Brom and Norwich you would clearly see that my opinion was that the 'pressing' tactic he has implemented was flawed and explained exactly why (i''ve explained it recently too). My hope was that he would tweak his tactics and to be fair to him he's definitely cut down on the 'pressing' we did..i mean we still do it but not to that ridiculous level. The issue is he's unwilling to change anything else and we have a lot of glaring issue.

 

[scaramanga]

Hahahaha you really are pushing it here. All of the evidence I have seen with MY OWN EYES is that AVB prefers rigid systems, players playing rigid, safety first football and the only times his teams are successful or watchable, are when he inherits world super-star players like Bale or Falcao!

I mean many people write crap in books, Tony Pulis says his reputation for long ball and physical teams is undeserved! Really?

For me the boring football made me want him out but I'm becoming shell-shocked by the perfoances and results.

There is no way in the summer I saw the level of performance and results we are actually seeing I mean it's as bad as some of the worst performances of the Gross era!

That's not true and goes to show why you are struggling with the distinction between opinion/fact and bias/evidence.

The evidence shows that we have played rigid football so far. The rest is made up by you.

 

[scaramanga]

You're sort of missing the point (maybe because you ignored the rest of the post). The work will never be complete imo....it doesn't work imo...it's a flawed tactic that will not work for a sustained period.

If there's any way to go back to my posts last year after the 2 home performances against Brom and Norwich you would clearly see that my opinion was that the 'pressing' tactic he has implemented was flawed and explained exactly why (i''ve explained it recently too). My hope was that he would tweak his tactics and to be fair to him he's definitely cut down on the 'pressing' we did..i mean we still do it but not to that ridiculous level. The issue is he's unwilling to change anything else and we have a lot of glaring issue.

Or that he just hasn't changed it yet for all kinds of other factors.

 

[NWND]

That's not true and goes to show why you are struggling with the distinction between opinion/fact and bias/evidence.

The evidence shows that we have played rigid football so far. The rest is made up by you.

Really, it's made up is it? How arrogant and self righteous of you, how dare you.

If anyone is allowing their own bias to cloud their own senses, it's you. Now you're accusing people of making stuff up which was plainly evident to anyone who watched Chelsea and AVB's Porto

 

[Kingdawson]

Or that he just hasn't changed it yet for all kinds of other factors.

yes in your "bias" opinion...much like it's my "bias" opinion that it's other factors. Do you get how silly it is to constantly label everything and everyone "bias" now because of their opinion? we're all ****ing guilty of being "bias" then.

 

[Robbo]

So...second season in the job, lost our best player, replaced him with 7-8 new signings...everything should be 100% on track now, right?

I agree we've been dire up front, and there's a lot of things not working at the moment, but sweet jesus, have a bit of patience. Rome (and Manchester United for that matter) wasn't built in one day/season. Let's see where we stand at the end of the season, and then pass our judgement on AVB.

 

[NWND]

So...second season in the job, lost our best player, replaced him with 7-8 new signings...everything should be 100% on track now, right?

I agree we've been dire up front, and there's a lot of things not working at the moment, but sweet jesus, have a bit of patience. Rome (and Manchester United for that matter) wasn't built in one day/season. Let's see where we stand at the end of the season, and then pass our judgement on AVB.

We aren't stuttering though, having one decent performance and then one bad one or showing ANY signs of improvement. If anything we're getting worse fast!

I'm glad we have a ruthless chairman with balls of steal In charge that isn't willing to tolerate this crap.

I have no doubt in my mind that Levy is now making plans as to who AVB's successor should be and that's all that is giving me comfort right now!

 

[scaramanga]

Really, it's made up is it? How arrogant and self righteous of you, how dare you.

If anyone is allowing their own bias to cloud their own senses, it's you. Now you're accusing people of making stuff up which was plainly evident to anyone who watched Chelsea and AVB's Porto

It is made up. The only thing you have evidence for from our playing style is how we've been playing - that show's nothing of AVB's preferences at all, it merely shows what AVB does within the exact parameters he's had so far. Because your sample size is 1 you cannot draw any conclusions whatsoever from that except what AVB does in the exact circumstances that have occurred.

There are two sources of evidence that have any relation to AVB's preferences in football - the things he's said and the book that was written about him. Both point to the fact that he doesn't choose to play boring football when given the option.

 

[Baleforce]

We aren't stuttering though, having one decent performance and then one bad one or showing ANY signs of improvement. If anything we're getting worse fast!

I'm glad we have a ruthless chairman with balls of steal In charge that isn't willing to tolerate this crap.

I have no doubt in my mind that Levy is now making plans as to who AVB's successor should be and that's all that is giving me comfort right now!

who do you think it will be, I can't really think of anyone decent who isn't in a better job already?