Next Season

[Rorschach]

Not really, but Mourinho has a much better handle on the man management/getting the most out of individuals side of things than AVB. Both have a better handle than him on making slight tactical alterations to their preferred system in order to get the most from their players on the day/exploit opposition weaknesses.

He's effectively roasting Torres and Ba in the press at the moment. Far worse than I've heard from any manager really.

 

[Jordinho]

He's effectively roasting Torres and Ba in the press at the moment. Far worse than I've heard from any manager really.

Already at war with Roman then?

 

[Rorschach]

Already at war with Roman then?

Because Torres is Abramovich purchase? Could be I suppose. I would love to see it all go sour there again.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

He's effectively roasting Torres and Ba in the press at the moment. Far worse than I've heard from any manager really.

That doesn't make him a bad man manager.

 

[Jordinho]

Because Torres is Abramovich purchase? Could be I suppose. I would love to see it all go sour there again.

Sounds like he's started the groundwork to get Torres and Ba out in the summer and add a couple of his choices.

 

[Rorschach]

That doesn't make him a bad man manager.

That's bad man management to me. He's chasing a title and has just alienated his only 2 fit strikers.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

That's bad man management to me. He's chasing a title and has just alienated his only 2 fit strikers.

How do you know? If he gets a reaction out of either of them then it's good man management. If he feels he doesn't need them and can win the title without them then it makes no difference.

You can't say something is good or bad man management until you see the results of what has been said. I can understand people saying Sherwoods rant post Chelsea was bad man management because since then he's had no response from the players. Had we gone into every game following that playing fantastically you could say it was good man management.

My point being that 'man management' is much more complex than shout at players in public = bad. Every single situation involving every single different player can require a different approach. That's why it's so difficult to get right.

 

[Rorschach]

How do you know? If he gets a reaction out of either of them then it's good man management. If he feels he doesn't need them and can win the title without them then it makes no difference.

You can't say something is good or bad man management until you see the results of what has been said. I can understand people saying Sherwoods rant post Chelsea was bad man management because since then he's had no response from the players. Had we gone into every game following that playing fantastically you could say it was good man management.

My point being that 'man management' is much more complex than shout at players in public = bad. Every single situation involving every single different player can require a different approach. That's why it's so difficult to get right.

I hear what you are saying but this last tirade from the special one is the most aggressive in along list of digs at his own strikers. If he is hoping for a bit of a 'I'll show him' well they haven't shown anything to date, so IMO ramping up the criticism is a flawed approach that has already been shown not to work. I totally agree that proper management of the players is more than a rousing speech or in this case having a go at your own players in public. The later in my opinion stinks of a last throw of the dice for Mourinho (and Tim) and I suspect he's lost those players for good now.

 

[DMac]

Thing is, if Sherwood stays next season (which I would not want to see) then whatever anyone might think - Levy included - it can only be a success if we significantly overhaul the squad*. Again. Which I would not want to see.

Personally I wouldn't let any of our summer signings go. Maybe, if we could get close to our money back on Soldado, then maybe we could use that to get another striker. I believe the guy has the talent - his track-record demonstrates it - but he's been badly mismanaged at Spurs (by both Sherwood and AVB if truth be told) and it might be too late to save his Tottenham career. Though in fairness, another manager might do for Soldado what Sherwood - for all his faults - did for Adebayor.

But aside from Soldado (and even him I'd be happy to see stay under a top manager, if the player himself wanted to stay) I think all our recent signings have shown enough glimpses of potential to be worth sticking with.

That said, I still think we have squad issues (especially in defence) that need to be addressed by whoever the manager is next season.


---------------------------------
* He's not going to suddenly become successful with the same group of players who looked lost in Anfield last week.

Yep agree, I would keep all of them. Possible exceptions, like you said, Soldado if we could get more than about 18 million for I would sell and use the money to buy Lukaku probably. Other possible exception would be Capoue if we could get more than what we paid for him, and perhaps use that money to buy another CB like Schar. The others I would definitely keep.

The ones we really need to get rid of are the flops who have been with us for multiple seasons and still shown nothing (or regressed into poor players) - Sigurdsson, Rose, Lennon, Dawson, Gomes, Livermore, BAE. These players offer nothing to us anymore imo. We should get rid, and bring in a few top quality players like Konoplyanka, Clasie, Lukaku, and Blind (or Rodriguez). Wouldn't be a massive overhaul but hopefully that is what Levy means by "strengthening key positions."

 

[DMac]

That makes sense, sorry if I've slightly misunderstood yours and KD's posts

I think AVB designed his football as a game of averages. In that context I'd agree he'd probably prefer a player capable of consistent 8/10 performances than more streaky maverick players like Ginola or VDV. The whole being greater than the sum of its parts etc.

I wouldn't say such an emphasis on team effort is mutually exclusive to 'technical ability' though. I'd argue what was more valuable to AVB were technical players that combined that with a good attitude and work-rate. Bale epitomised that for me, and look how he flourished under AVB.

It's horribly unromantic concept for us Spurs fans, we all love a flawed genius, but I can understand AVB's approach.

Yep AVB's "system" was all based on statistical analysis. 11 hardworking players who press high up the pitch and win the ball back, and then create chances for efforts from outside the box instead of breaking the opponent down with passing. You rarely concede because you set up with a high press but most of the players behind the ball. It does sound like it would work on paper, when you remove the psychology of the players and fans from the equation. And there you have the problem with AVB's strategy. In statistics there are always the occasional outlying results - the games where none of the shots go in. The average game you would probably expect around 2 out of 20 or so long shot chances to find the net, but of course you have some games where 3 or 4 go in, and others where only 1 or none do. Those results, imo, sap the morale of the players, because it feels like your team can't buy a goal even when one is needed. You rely on luck, for lack of a better word (maybe statistical probability would be better), to help the ball find the back of the net.

It's like using a machine gun to shoot at a target a mile away - it is statistically probable that one of your bullets will hit the target if you fire enough times, but you aren't doing anything yourself - just getting lucky when you hit it. How different is that to carefully aiming with a long range rifle, adjusting the scope according to the current conditions, and firing a perfect shot? That's pretty much the difference between AVB's approach, and someone like Wenger's or Guardiola's.

 

[Raziel]

Yep AVB's "system" was all based on statistical analysis. 11 hardworking players who press high up the pitch and win the ball back, and then create chances for efforts from outside the box instead of breaking the opponent down with passing. You rarely concede because you set up with a high press but most of the players behind the ball. It does sound like it would work on paper, when you remove the psychology of the players and fans from the equation. And there you have the problem with AVB's strategy. In statistics there are always the occasional outlying results - the games where none of the shots go in. The average game you would probably expect around 2 out of 20 or so long shot chances to find the net, but of course you have some games where 3 or 4 go in, and others where only 1 or none do. Those results, imo, sap the morale of the players, because it feels like your team can't buy a goal even when one is needed. You rely on luck, for lack of a better word (maybe statistical probability would be better), to help the ball find the back of the net.

It's like using a machine gun to shoot at a target a mile away - it is statistically probable that one of your bullets will hit the target if you fire enough times, but you aren't doing anything yourself - just getting lucky when you hit it. How different is that to carefully aiming with a long range rifle, adjusting the scope according to the current conditions, and firing a perfect shot? That's pretty much the difference between AVB's approach, and someone like Wenger's or Guardiola's.

Can we get over the Wenger is a great manager myth yet?

Guy game into a tactically naïve PL with a decent base team, made a couple of very astute buys (at the time) and had a good run.
The PL adapted, better managers were hired (Jose as example) and the guy has gone on a 8 year **** all run. They consistently spend huge on wages, the team is 100% Wengers, he has zero pressure and there remain issues a 12 year old could point out that remain unaddressed.

In a two horse league he did well, but unless you consider the 4th place trophy a big deal after 15 years .. not on my list of top managers

 

[scaramanga]

Yep AVB's "system" was all based on statistical analysis.

Few things could be further from the truth.

What you seem to have done is taken your opinion of AVB, invented a flawed reason for what you consider to be failures and come up with a very flawed post based on an entirely flawed premise.

But hey, if it fits in with an opinion you already have, why question it?

 

[Modric THFC]

Few things could be further from the truth.

What you seem to have done is taken your opinion of AVB, invented a flawed reason for what you consider to be failures and come up with a very flawed post based on an entirely flawed premise.

But hey, if it fits in with an opinion you already have, why question it?

Indeed I remember AVB famously saying he doesnt use Stats.

 

[scaramanga]

Indeed I remember AVB famously saying he doesnt use Stats.

I think that's putting it mildly. He really isn't a fan at all from what I've read.

 

[Cochise]

Watching the Sky lot having a giggle about Levy talking about only making "Key signings" and how we need about 4-5 of them. One of the pundits mentionned that we do need a clear out and whoever does it has got a massive job on their hands due to the numer of players the club has. They are right though, I do think we need to make at least 3 signings for the first team this summer and that's before we even think about replacing the players that could leave.

Thompson did say that he thought Sherwood was mad for saying what he did about Hoddle and how he needs to sit down with his mentor (Redknapp) and get some tips.

 

[scaramanga]

Watching the Sky lot having a giggle about Levy talking about only making "Key signings" and how we need about 4-5 of them. One of the pundits mentionned that we do need a clear out and whoever does it has got a massive job on their hands due to the numer of players the club has. They are right though, I do think we need to make at least 3 signings for the first team this summer and that's before we even think about replacing the players that could leave.

Thompson did say that he thought Sherwood was mad for saying what he did about Hoddle and how he needs to sit down with his mentor (Redknapp) and get some tips.

Sit down with Redknapp for tips on not gobbing off?

 

[chancer]

Watching the Sky lot having a giggle about Levy talking about only making "Key signings" and how we need about 4-5 of them. One of the pundits mentionned that we do need a clear out and whoever does it has got a massive job on their hands due to the numer of players the club has. They are right though, I do think we need to make at least 3 signings for the first team this summer and that's before we even think about replacing the players that could leave.

Thompson did say that he thought Sherwood was mad for saying what he did about Hoddle and how he needs to sit down with his mentor (Redknapp) and get some tips.

I don't think 3 is enough in all honesty. I think these are our Top 4 players who we know can perform in the PL and are almost 100% certain to still be here come next season:

Walker
Vlad

Eriksen
Bentaleb
Sandro
Dembele
Chadli

Ade

You then have these lads who have significant question marks over whether they'll be here next season, and/or, the additional question of whether they can ever adapt to PL:

Lloris
Vertonghen
Lamela
Paulinho
Soldado


So depending how it all shakes out, we have between a low of 8 Top 4 players (not all of whom can play in the same team at the same time), and a high of 13, again, not all of whom can fit in the same team.

All those guys like Siggy, Holtby, Lennon, Rose, Townsend, Kane...they are all top quality squad players, but if those kinds of names are appearing regularly on team sheets next season, then no CL.

For me, it's hard to see a way to the CL without at least 4 first team additions I would say. If Lloris goes to Monaco or PSG, if Verts shags off to Zenit, if Lamela and Soldado call it quits and Pauli continues to perform so poorly, 4 additions is optimistic.

It's a bit of a mess...

 

[metalgear]

Yep AVB's "system" was all based on statistical analysis. 11 hardworking players who press high up the pitch and win the ball back, and then create chances for efforts from outside the box instead of breaking the opponent down with passing. You rarely concede because you set up with a high press but most of the players behind the ball. It does sound like it would work on paper, when you remove the psychology of the players and fans from the equation. And there you have the problem with AVB's strategy. In statistics there are always the occasional outlying results - the games where none of the shots go in. The average game you would probably expect around 2 out of 20 or so long shot chances to find the net, but of course you have some games where 3 or 4 go in, and others where only 1 or none do. Those results, imo, sap the morale of the players, because it feels like your team can't buy a goal even when one is needed. You rely on luck, for lack of a better word (maybe statistical probability would be better), to help the ball find the back of the net.

It's like using a machine gun to shoot at a target a mile away - it is statistically probable that one of your bullets will hit the target if you fire enough times, but you aren't doing anything yourself - just getting lucky when you hit it. How different is that to carefully aiming with a long range rifle, adjusting the scope according to the current conditions, and firing a perfect shot? That's pretty much the difference between AVB's approach, and someone like Wenger's or Guardiola's.

its entirely possible too that avb's project was never completed. that he was playing dull but solid football to negate the weaknesses he saw then and what we are witnessing now with sherwood. that he was short of 2-3 players that would complete the squad, and levy didn't sanction it and had other ideas.

to conclude that avb's system is what we say is naive. we had bale sized hole to cover and despite the investments in the squad it was clear that we still didn't have a balanced squad.

 

[veron23]

its entirely possible too that avb's project was never completed. that he was playing dull but solid football to negate the weaknesses he saw then and what we are witnessing now with sherwood. that he was short of 2-3 players that would complete the squad, and levy didn't sanction it and had other ideas.

to conclude that avb's system is what we say is naive. we had bale sized hole to cover and despite the investments in the squad it was clear that we still didn't have a balanced squad.

you have no idea what your talking about

 

[90sSpursBook]

Re: There is always next season (our mantra)

Despite how tame this season has been (and it may get tamer!) there really aren't too many changes needed in the first XI and 1st team squad.

This is on the basis that Lloris and Vertonghen both stay anyway.

I read a book recently (The Numbers Game) which looks at football theories and answers them using statistics (AVB??) (not AVB??) - one of the points it made was the you should always prioritise changing your weakest link which sounds obvious but how often do teams do this rather than upgrading their strongest areas? (Arsenal being a case in point with 'marquee signing of Ozil last Summer which has made little difference to them).

Think we all agree that our weakest link is left back; on the basis that the new coach or SHerwood isnt going to turn Danny Rose into a world class left back over the SUmmer its the position that needs to be prioritised.

Looking at our squad I would make the following changes:

GK: Keep Lloris at all costs; Gomes to leave. Would keep Friedel as back-up with one of the many highly rated young GK's we have (Archer, Miles, McGee)

DEF: Vertonghen, Dawson, Kaboul and Chiriches is a good range and variety of Centre Backs and injuries permitting I dont see any reason to change these. Walker as right back is good option and Naughton is ok as cover. We need a high quality LB to go into the team with Rose as cover. Connor Ogvilie has looked promising in 18/21 but a Champ loan would be good for him early part of next year. Time for Benny to leave i suspect.

MID: Sandro, with a full pre-season, will be a massive boost. If we get good money would let Capoue go with Livermore as back up. Paulinho, Dembele, Carroll plus Eriksen will give us options centrally. I like them both but either Siggy or/and Holtby to leave. Would like to see Bentaleb on a season loan to a mid table PL club (Swansea, So'ton, Saudi Sportswashing Machine).

WIDE: We need to get a good look at Lamela. Towsend and Lennon for one or both places depending on form. Konoplyanka has been linked and would be an upgrade.

FOR: Interesting one for Ade; if we were offered £10m+ then may be worth considering bearing in mind his contract, age and that you'd have to rate his chances of getting on with new manager as no better than 50/50. Based on this season though we should build attack around him. Big season for Soldado. Sounds obvious but we need a Defoe type striker to replace well er.... Defoe but has to be someone who'll expect to be on the bench most weeks.

There is a hell of a lot to look forwards to in the U21/U18. I know a few of them and they all feel that with Tim in charge they have a chance to get into the 1st team within 12 months. Each player will have an individual pathway suited to them (ie out on loan or straight into 1st team) but likes of Josh Onomah, Daniel Akindayi, Milos Veljkovic, Ruben Lameiras, Kyle Walker-Peters and Alex Pritchard worth keeping an eye out for particularly if we are in the Europa League again.

Whoever is Manager I think we should go all out to win a Cup. Emirates Marketing Project and Chelsea will be out of reach, Liverpool will have to deal with the distraction of european football and will be intriguing to see what happens if Madrid come knocking for Suarez. Arsenal could spend big again and you'd expect United to be stronger so top 4 will be a really big ask for us.