Next Season

[Ryan]

What evidence do you have to back this claim?

He wouldn't tolerate 'passengers' yet he picked Invisibilinho every game...the king of passengers?

I'm aware that discussions around AVB have been done to death on here and I don't particularly want to derail the thread

I would say that his game plan was quite apparent in that he wanted hard working players in midfield, but that doesn't automatically mean that he preferred players that were technically inferior. Typically he wanted his midfield to press high to win possession but also wanted players that were capable of retaining possession. In order to achieve this you need players that are capable enough to do that. If we signed Lee Cattermole I'd be more inclined to agree with you

With regards to Paulinho. I think we're all aware that he's a far better player than he's demonstrating at the moment. I wouldn't necessarily describe him as a passenger, he works hard enough and covers a lot of ground, for me he just isn't assertive enough both in the tackle and getting into the box. He's just a bit 'meh' but he's definitely got the raw materials to be a success here when/if he adapts.

 

[Kingdawson]

I'm aware that discussions around AVB have been done to death on here and I don't particularly want to derail the thread

I would say that his game plan was quite apparent in that he wanted hard working players in midfield, but that doesn't automatically mean that he preferred players that were technically inferior. Typically he wanted his midfield to press high to win possession but also wanted players that were capable of retaining possession. In order to achieve this you need players that are capable enough to do that. If we signed Lee Cattermole I'd be more inclined to agree with you

With regards to Paulinho. I think we're all aware that he's a far better player than he's demonstrating at the moment. I wouldn't necessarily describe him as a passenger, he works hard enough and covers a lot of ground, for me he just isn't assertive enough both in the tackle and getting into the box. He's just a bit 'meh' but he's definitely got the raw materials to be a success here when/if he adapts.

You said he preferred technically gifted players over everything...i asked to show me evidence this is the case.

I've provided numerous pieces of evidence that state otherwise. Of course you could give reasons for everything i pointed out (which you did) but the fact is that all the things i pointed out did happen. Your reasoning as to why it happened is opinion but the fact that it happened is a fact.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Ok, perhaps many of the 7 signings have underperformed (who hasn't in our team btw), but are we really saying now that none of these players are technically gifted in any way??

Paulinho - technically gifted; has shown it for Brazil many times, even if only the Stoke game is what people have seen technically for us

Chadli - has shown some technical ability recently and near the start if the season; had also showed it for his previous club

Soldado - has always shown good technical capability; his many goals prior to joining us showed that. Plus his touch and vision has been seen for us (even if the goals haven't). Adapting to the PL, or us creating a system for him to thrive have been his problems and not a lack of technical ability. In fact us purchasing him instead of the more PL-hardened brute force of Benteke suggests it was his technical ability that we went for.

Capoue - has shown some technical ability in his early games. Has not been the same since his injury vs Arsenal, but he has technical ability and seemed to help us move the ball forward more quickly in those early games.

Chirches, Eriksen and Lamela - no need to say anything with regards to technical ability.

I am not sure AVB preferred technical ability over all other attributes but you can see with the summer 7 and the signing of Holtby that AVB did value technical ability, but he also felt the ability to handle the PL's physical demands was necessary. This is why imo Eriksen and Lamela, perhaps the most gifted of the signings but also perhaps the least physically ready for the PL, were played more sporadically than the others. BTW Soldado has shown that he actually is stronger than perhaps we give him credit for.

I think the idea that AVB didn't like technically gifted players is a myth

 

[DublinSpur]

Thing is, if Sherwood stays next season (which I would not want to see) then whatever anyone might think - Levy included - it can only be a success if we significantly overhaul the squad*. Again. Which I would not want to see.

Personally I wouldn't let any of our summer signings go. Maybe, if we could get close to our money back on Soldado, then maybe we could use that to get another striker. I believe the guy has the talent - his track-record demonstrates it - but he's been badly mismanaged at Spurs (by both Sherwood and AVB if truth be told) and it might be too late to save his Tottenham career. Though in fairness, another manager might do for Soldado what Sherwood - for all his faults - did for Adebayor.

But aside from Soldado (and even him I'd be happy to see stay under a top manager, if the player himself wanted to stay) I think all our recent signings have shown enough glimpses of potential to be worth sticking with.

That said, I still think we have squad issues (especially in defence) that need to be addressed by whoever the manager is next season.


---------------------------------
* He's not going to suddenly become successful with the same group of players who looked lost in Anfield last week.

 

[sc25]

Soldado - has always shown good technical capability; his many goals prior to joining us showed that. Plus his touch and vision has been seen for us (even if the goals haven't). Adapting to the PL, or us creating a system for him to thrive have been his problems and not a lack of technical ability. In fact us purchasing him instead of the more PL-hardened brute force of Benteke suggests it was his technical ability that we went for.

Nah, it suggests we screwed up. Really, we were going to somehow create a new system for him? Regardless of systems, dude should have weighed in with 15 goals in his sleep, and even then his signing could be questioned. When you sign a guy of that money you may wonder to what extent he will fit in, but at the least you are banking on more than he's shown. Despite the system, he's even missed sitters. That doesn't mean he's an awful player, but he hasn't worked out here thus far. Other players haven't either, but they aren't approaching 30 years old.

 

[Kingdawson]

Ok, perhaps many of the 7 signings have underperformed (who hasn't in our team btw), but are we really saying now that none of these players are technically gifted in any way??

Paulinho - technically gifted; has shown it for Brazil many times, even if only the Stoke game is what people have seen technically for us

Chadli - has shown some technical ability recently and near the start if the season; had also showed it for his previous club

Soldado - has always shown good technical capability; his many goals prior to joining us showed that. Plus his touch and vision has been seen for us (even if the goals haven't). Adapting to the PL, or us creating a system for him to thrive have been his problems and not a lack of technical ability. In fact us purchasing him instead of the more PL-hardened brute force of Benteke suggests it was his technical ability that we went for.

Capoue - has shown some technical ability in his early games. Has not been the same since his injury vs Arsenal, but he has technical ability and seemed to help us move the ball forward more quickly in those early games.

Chirches, Eriksen and Lamela - no need to say anything with regards to technical ability.

I am not sure AVB preferred technical ability over all other attributes but you can see with the summer 7 and the signing of Holtby that AVB did value technical ability, but he also felt the ability to handle the PL's physical demands was necessary. This is why imo Eriksen and Lamela, perhaps the most gifted of the signings but also perhaps the least physically ready for the PL, were played more sporadically than the others. BTW Soldado has shown that he actually is stronger than perhaps we give him credit for.

I think the idea that AVB didn't like technically gifted players is a myth

Who said this? i hate when people don't read what others type and simply make stuff up. Please read my previous posts again (and carefully).

 

[Ryan]

You said he preferred technically gifted players over everything...i asked to show me evidence this is the case.

I've provided numerous pieces of evidence that state otherwise. Of course you could give reasons for everything i pointed out (which you did) but the fact is that all the things i pointed out did happen. Your reasoning as to why it happened is opinion but the fact that it happened is a fact.

Your evidence is equally as spurious as mine really.

I'm basing my opinion on what we saw on this pitch. What AVB was attempting to go for needs players who are good with the ball at their feet, something which our squad is capable of doing. Unfortunately it didn't work and led to, for the large part, dull and uninspiring performances. However, just because we weren't delivering liquid football on the pitch doesn't automatically mean that AVB preferred cloggers. That's the only assertion that you've made that I really disagree with

This thread is for the future, not the past so perhaps we should try to get back on topic! Just out of interest, who would you want to see coming in next season?

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Your evidence is equally as spurious as mine really.

I'm basing my opinion on what we saw on this pitch. What AVB was attempting to go for needs players who are good with the ball at their feet, something which our squad is capable of doing. Unfortunately it didn't work and led to, for the large part, dull and uninspiring performances. However, just because we weren't delivering liquid football on the pitch doesn't automatically mean that AVB preferred cloggers. That's the only assertion that you've made that I really disagree with

This thread is for the future, not the past so perhaps we should try to get back on topic! Just out of interest, who would you want to see coming in next season?

'Cloggers' means hard working but sh*t at football. 'Technically gifted' in the context of this argument seems to mean brilliant at football but not hard working.

There's not a manager on the planet that prefers every player to be either end of the scale.


What we are saying is if given the choice between a technically gifted player who maybe doesn't work as hard (say Ginola for example) and a less technically gifted one who is physical and works hard for the team (say Milner for example) AVB will pick the less technically gifted one who works hard because those are the kind of players that suit his system best, and we all know he doesn't like to alter that system.

Now people will jump on the fact he had Bale last year and he signed Lamela. Like I said above, no manager on the planet prefers every single player in their team to be either end of the scale. It a case of getting the balance right between the two extremes. What me and KD are saying (I think, KD correct me if I'm wrong) is that AVB prefers his balance to be on the hard working not so technically gifted (but still proficient footballers in the context of his system) side of things to the technically gifted side.

 

[scaramanga]

'Cloggers' means hard working but sh*t at football. 'Technically gifted' in the context of this argument seems to mean brilliant at football but not hard working.

There's not a manager on the planet that prefers every player to be either end of the scale.


What we are saying is if given the choice between a technically gifted player who maybe doesn't work as hard (say Ginola for example) and a less technically gifted one who is physical and works hard for the team (say Milner for example) AVB will pick the less technically gifted one who works hard because those are the kind of players that suit his system best, and we all know he doesn't like to alter that system.

Now people will jump on the fact he had Bale last year and he signed Lamela. Like I said above, no manager on the planet prefers every single player in their team to be either end of the scale. It a case of getting the balance right between the two extremes. What me and KD are saying (I think, KD correct me if I'm wrong) is that AVB prefers his balance to be on the hard working not so technically gifted (but still proficient footballers in the context of his system) side of things to the technically gifted side.

Milner is an unfair and extreme example. Our goalkeeper is a more talented midfielder than Milner.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Milner is an unfair and extreme example. Our goalkeeper is a more talented midfielder than Milner.

I honestly think that, in the presence of Bale, if AVB was offered David Ginola or James Milner (obviously when Ginola was still playing). He would pick Milner.

I see your point though, it probably did seem as though I was trying to be a d*ck about AVB. Genuinely wasn't.

 

[scaramanga]

I honestly think that, in the presence of Bale, if AVB was offered David Ginola or James Milner (obviously when Ginola was still playing). He would pick Milner.

I see your point though, it probably did seem as though I was trying to be a d*ck about AVB. Genuinely wasn't.

So would I - Ginola and Bale would get in each other's way

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

So would I - Ginola and Bale would get in each other's way

And there's nothing wrong with that opinion. Like I said, AVB's system is AVB's system.

Personally I would never turn down the chance to have two players of such ability in the same team. Rather than turn them down because they don't fit my system, I'd try and alter my system slightly so that they both fit and work together. The reason for this being that a team containing both Bale and Ginola firing on all cylinders will always be better than a team containing only Bale firing on all cylinders. Providing I can alter the system in such a way that doesn't massively destroy our ability to defend of course. It takes a really good manager to be able to do that

 

[Ryan]

'Cloggers' means hard working but sh*t at football. 'Technically gifted' in the context of this argument seems to mean brilliant at football but not hard working.

There's not a manager on the planet that prefers every player to be either end of the scale.


What we are saying is if given the choice between a technically gifted player who maybe doesn't work as hard (say Ginola for example) and a less technically gifted one who is physical and works hard for the team (say Milner for example) AVB will pick the less technically gifted one who works hard because those are the kind of players that suit his system best, and we all know he doesn't like to alter that system.

Now people will jump on the fact he had Bale last year and he signed Lamela. Like I said above, no manager on the planet prefers every single player in their team to be either end of the scale. It a case of getting the balance right between the two extremes. What me and KD are saying (I think, KD correct me if I'm wrong) is that AVB prefers his balance to be on the hard working not so technically gifted (but still proficient footballers in the context of his system) side of things to the technically gifted side.

That makes sense, sorry if I've slightly misunderstood yours and KD's posts

I think AVB designed his football as a game of averages. In that context I'd agree he'd probably prefer a player capable of consistent 8/10 performances than more streaky maverick players like Ginola or VDV. The whole being greater than the sum of its parts etc.

I wouldn't say such an emphasis on team effort is mutually exclusive to 'technical ability' though. I'd argue what was more valuable to AVB were technical players that combined that with a good attitude and work-rate. Bale epitomised that for me, and look how he flourished under AVB.

It's horribly unromantic concept for us Spurs fans, we all love a flawed genius, but I can understand AVB's approach.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

That makes sense, sorry if I've slightly misunderstood yours and KD's posts

I think AVB designed his football as a game of averages. In that context I'd agree he'd probably prefer a player capable of consistent 8/10 performances than more streaky maverick players like Ginola or VDV. The whole being greater than the sum of its parts etc.

I wouldn't say such an emphasis on team effort is mutually exclusive to 'technical ability' though. I'd argue what was more valuable to AVB were technical players that combined that with a good attitude and work-rate. Bale epitomised that for me, and look how he flourished under AVB.

It's horribly unromantic concept for us Spurs fans, we all love a flawed genius, but I can understand AVB's approach.

Any manager in the world finds those types of players valuable, it's what separates the good players from the world class ones.

My problem with AVB (I'm in no means an AVB hater by the way, when he was sacked I was pretty much on the fence as to whether it was the right decision, and I still am now), is that he is quite risk averse. So rather than take someone who is a fantastic player but is a little work shy, try to work with them to improve their work-rate and/or alter his system slightly to accommodate them because their technical ability outweighs their lack of work rate, he looks at them and thinks, no, doesn't fit my system, we already have the 2 'flair' players and 8 'hard-working' players that we need to play my system. We won't buy him.

To me that is a fundamental lack of some of the essential skills required to be a world class manager. Whether or not he will learn these skills as he progresses through his career remains to be seen.

 

[Kingdawson]

Your evidence is equally as spurious as mine really.

I'm basing my opinion on what we saw on this pitch. What AVB was attempting to go for needs players who are good with the ball at their feet, something which our squad is capable of doing. Unfortunately it didn't work and led to, for the large part, dull and uninspiring performances. However, just because we weren't delivering liquid football on the pitch doesn't automatically mean that AVB preferred cloggers. That's the only assertion that you've made that I really disagree with

This thread is for the future, not the past so perhaps we should try to get back on topic! Just out of interest, who would you want to see coming in next season?

Well no it's not mate, not at all. VDV left, Huddlestone and Ade frozen out etc etc etc....this all happened and is factual. I NEVER said he preferred cloggers, i merely pointed out that the evidence whilst he was in charge here definitely did not point to him appreciating technically gifted players.


As for who i want next season...i genuinely have no idea although i do not want Van Gaal that's for sure.

 

[Kingdawson]

'Cloggers' means hard working but sh*t at football. 'Technically gifted' in the context of this argument seems to mean brilliant at football but not hard working.

There's not a manager on the planet that prefers every player to be either end of the scale.


What we are saying is if given the choice between a technically gifted player who maybe doesn't work as hard (say Ginola for example) and a less technically gifted one who is physical and works hard for the team (say Milner for example) AVB will pick the less technically gifted one who works hard because those are the kind of players that suit his system best, and we all know he doesn't like to alter that system.

Now people will jump on the fact he had Bale last year and he signed Lamela. Like I said above, no manager on the planet prefers every single player in their team to be either end of the scale. It a case of getting the balance right between the two extremes. What me and KD are saying (I think, KD correct me if I'm wrong) is that AVB prefers his balance to be on the hard working not so technically gifted (but still proficient footballers in the context of his system) side of things to the technically gifted side.

Jeez i didn't see this post....thank you for summing it up better than i ever could my friend=D>

 

[Ryan]

Well no it's not mate, not at all. VDV left, Huddlestone and Ade frozen out etc etc etc....this all happened and is factual. I NEVER said he preferred cloggers, i merely pointed out that the evidence whilst he was in charge here definitely did not point to him appreciating technically gifted players.


As for who i want next season...i genuinely have no idea although i do not want Van Gaal that's for sure.

Obviously those players left but I disagree with your evidence given. They were simply incompatible with AVB especially in the case of VDV and Hudd. If they were unable to perform to AVBs tactics then it would have be more of a hindrance to select them regardless of their talent with the ball.

With regards to Ade, he's always had a ****ty attitude as proven by his behaviour at every club he's signed for (bar one season on loan at RM). It's the same with Anelka at Chelsea, I think he had issues more with the man than he did the player.

I think we're on the same page in that he was more pragmatic in preferring reliability over unpredictability, I just don't believe that was his biggest downfall with his time with us.

van Gaal's is probably our most high profile option but he's been out of club football for a long time, never worked in English football and has a questionable temperament. Could be awesome but still represents a big risk for me

 

[Jordinho]

Well no it's not mate, not at all. VDV left, Huddlestone and Ade frozen out etc etc etc....this all happened and is factual. I NEVER said he preferred cloggers, i merely pointed out that the evidence whilst he was in charge here definitely did not point to him appreciating technically gifted players.


As for who i want next season...i genuinely have no idea although i do not want Van Gaal that's for sure.

Technically gifted is probably a stretch. Comfortable on the ball would be more accurate, though the reasons for AVB not wanting those players around has nothing to with that.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Any manager in the world finds those types of players valuable, it's what separates the good players from the world class ones.

My problem with AVB (I'm in no means an AVB hater by the way, when he was sacked I was pretty much on the fence as to whether it was the right decision, and I still am now), is that he is quite risk averse. So rather than take someone who is a fantastic player but is a little work shy, try to work with them to improve their work-rate and/or alter his system slightly to accommodate them because their technical ability outweighs their lack of work rate, he looks at them and thinks, no, doesn't fit my system, we already have the 2 'flair' players and 8 'hard-working' players that we need to play my system. We won't buy him.

To me that is a fundamental lack of some of the essential skills required to be a world class manager. Whether or not he will learn these skills as he progresses through his career remains to be seen.

I found what you write above interesting, especially the bolded bit.
I want to ask do you see AVB and his 'risk averse' manner much different to Mourinho or Benitez?
Do you think either of those are world class managers?
Also, do you think AVB's method of choosing players with his preferred work-rate/technical balance to be the opposite of how, say, Wenger chooses his players? Many would argue that Wenger is too much perhaps the other way and has not been pragmatic enough in his selections for his system (hence nearly 9 years without a trophy)?

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this as you've raised some very interesting points.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

I found what you write above interesting, especially the bolded bit.
I want to ask do you see AVB and his 'risk averse' manner much different to Mourinho or Benitez?

Not really, but Mourinho has a much better handle on the man management/getting the most out of individuals side of things than AVB. Both have a better handle than him on making slight tactical alterations to their preferred system in order to get the most from their players on the day/exploit opposition weaknesses.

Do you think either of those are world class managers?

Mourinho certainly is. For some reason I find it difficult to say Benitez is, but you can't really argue with his record.

Also, do you think AVB's method of choosing players with his preferred work-rate/technical balance to be the opposite of how, say, Wenger chooses his players? Many would argue that Wenger is too much perhaps the other way and has not been pragmatic enough in his selections for his system (hence nearly 9 years without a trophy)?

Certainly I think Wenger looks at technical ability first. Ironically his most successful teams (i.e the unbeaten team) probably had a higher ratio of hard working players to technical players than his current side. So maybe that means he hasn't been pragmatic enough. However I think if he tried to take that team and adapt them to his current system that wouldn't work. So he shows an awareness of what type of player fits into whatever system he wants to play. Something AVB still needs to learn IMO.

On the grand scheme of things, I wouldn't say they are polar opposites but they do sit on either side of a mid point. I think Wenger has the ability to identify when he needs to bite the bullet and alter his system or buy a type of player he normally wouldn't though. I'm not sure AVB has developed that yet (or if he ever will)

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this as you've raised some very interesting points.

Thanks for the kind words, answers in Bold above.