• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Gutter Boy said:
Why not just get someone more competent and less fascist? Surely there's someone amongst your 360 odd MPs who fits that bill?

If he's economically too interventionalist for you, and socially too oppressive, why still support him? If your neo-lib and he's fascist. Surely that's complete opposite ends of the Tory spectrum?
Click to expand...

so a leader from outside the party?
 
Baleforce said:
so a leader from outside the party?
Click to expand...

Johnson is particularly on the fascist end. I'm using the term specifically, rather than just to be pejorative. That he's socially authoritarian and economically interventionalist. Jackboots and 'third way' economics. There are lots of different flavours of Tory - Cameron and Osborne were in contrast completely socially liberal and economically laissez-faire.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Why not just get someone more competent and less fascist? Surely there's someone amongst your 360 odd MPs who fits that bill?

If he's economically too interventionalist for you, and socially too oppressive, why still support him? If your neo-lib and he's fascist. Surely that's complete opposite ends of the Tory spectrum?
Click to expand...
I don't support him, he's the worst conservative (aside from May) that the party's had as leader for a long time.

I'm just pointing out that the recent articles in the Telegraph (always written with inside info) make it seem as if he's been told he can stay if he learns to conservative properly.

For me he should have gone the moment he announced the first lockdown. Raising taxes to pay for his own economic idiocy was just doubling down on that.
 
scaramanga said:
I suspect it's far more simple than that - he's popular.

If he can be reined in and start behaving like a conservative then he can be very useful. Recent Telegraph articles appear to me as if that's been made clear to him - govern properly and you survive, continue to govern like an economic halfwit and you're gone.
Click to expand...


Ha, ha, it has just been announced that a photo of Sunak is about to be released, showing him at a party.
 
scaramanga said:
I suspect it's far more simple than that - he's popular.

If he can be reined in and start behaving like a conservative then he can be very useful. Recent Telegraph articles appear to me as if that's been made clear to him - govern properly and you survive, continue to govern like an economic halfwit and you're gone.
Click to expand...
Well at least he didn't create huge trade barriers to the largest trading bloc in the world. That would have been really stupid.

Johnson will not change because he is incapable of changing. This is his nature, and it is not conservative nor liberal obviously. His true malevolent character is cloaked by a thin veil of bonhomie that is as transparent as his motives. The UK would be better off with literally anyone else in charge.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Johnson is particularly on the fascist end. I'm using the term specifically, rather than just to be pejorative. That he's socially authoritarian and economically interventionalist. Jackboots and 'third way' economics. There are lots of different flavours of Tory - Cameron and Osborne were in contrast completely socially liberal and economically laissez-faire.
Click to expand...
Rorschach said:
Well at least he didn't create huge trade barriers to the largest trading bloc in the world. That would have been really stupid.

Johnson will not change because he is incapable of changing. This is his nature, and it is not conservative nor liberal obviously. His true malevolent character is cloaked by a thin veil of bonhomie that is as transparent as his motives. The UK would be better off with literally anyone else in charge.
Click to expand...
Yet if you read his articles (and I've read plenty), he consistently espouses the benefits of a small state and economic literacy.

As soon as he's in power he does the precise opposite - I just can't understand anyone having a conservative outlook and an understanding of economics acting the way he does.
 
scaramanga said:
Yet if you read his articles (and I've read plenty), he consistently espouses the benefits of a small state and economic literacy.

As soon as he's in power he does the precise opposite - I just can't understand anyone having a conservative outlook and an understanding of economics acting the way he does.
Click to expand...

I think there’s a slight broader move away from neoliberalism internationally. Covid, Brexit and climate change have accelerated that – governments are having to do more again and the myth that private is always best has been dispelled for generations that have previously not known any different. In this country May was already along the path to more intervention, certainly than the neo-lib peak of the Osborne years. Personally I favour that.

But to me the really sinister thing about Johnson (and again begun by May) is the shift to social conservatism. The fear, culture wars, stirring division and authoritarianism. It’s like a playbook from the Norsefire party or something (GB News/Talk Radio is just a parody of Lewis Prothero).

I disliked Cameron/Osborne for their neoliberalism, but I fear Johnson for his fascism.
 
scaramanga said:
Yet if you read his articles (and I've read plenty), he consistently espouses the benefits of a small state and economic literacy.

As soon as he's in power he does the precise opposite - I just can't understand anyone having a conservative outlook and an understanding of economics acting the way he does.
Click to expand...
I haven't read them thankfully but there is no mystery to Boris' behavior. He is driven by the ideology of me first, as you of all people should recognise.
 
Rorschach said:
I haven't read them thankfully but there is no mystery to Boris' behavior. He is driven by the ideology of me first, as you of all people should recognise.
Click to expand...

I can't believe that people actually think boris has some kind of ideology, he is driven by nothing other than self interest.
He is a politician of the meanest kind, a venal and thoroughly repugnant man that has used a car crash of a political landscape to worm his way into power.
How we got here and even worse how we appear to be unable to turn away from him and his ilk really is a testament to low politics has sunk.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I think there’s a slight broader move away from neoliberalism internationally. Covid, Brexit and climate change have accelerated that – governments are having to do more again and the myth that private is always best has been dispelled for generations that have previously not known any different. In this country May was already along the path to more intervention, certainly than the neo-lib peak of the Osborne years. Personally I favour that.

But to me the really sinister thing about Johnson (and again begun by May) is the shift to social conservatism. The fear, culture wars, stirring division and authoritarianism. It’s like a playbook from the Norsefire party or something (GB News/Talk Radio is just a parody of Lewis Prothero).

I disliked Cameron/Osborne for their neoliberalism, but I fear Johnson for his fascism.
Click to expand...
May was just following on from Blair/Brown with the authoritarianism, that was nothing new.

Markets are always the better option, just because Johnson can't see it, don't be blinded too.
 
Rorschach said:
I haven't read them thankfully but there is no mystery to Boris' behavior. He is driven by the ideology of me first, as you of all people should recognise.
Click to expand...
On the contrary, I think you've got me quite misunderstood.

Johnson's special (special like the bus not the relativistic theory) form of communist dictatorship does nothing to benefit me, so I cannot begin to fathom it.
 
scaramanga said:
That's the thing about narcissism, o can't understand why people wouldn't benefit me.
Click to expand...
Blindspot, eh?

Let's try this framing...
Q. Why didn't Boris carry through on all those nice conservative things that he talked about in the torygraph?

Is it?
(a) he is a liar
(b) he cares not a jot for anyone but himself
(c) he is not a conservative
(d) he has no idea what he is doing
(e) all of the above
 
Rorschach said:
Blindspot, eh?

Let's try this framing...
Q. Why didn't Boris carry through on all those nice conservative things that he talked about in the torygraph?

Is it?
(a) he is a liar
(b) he cares not a jot for anyone but himself
(c) he is not a conservative
(d) he has no idea what he is doing
(e) all of the above
Click to expand...
(f) doesn't matter because none of the above improve my life.
 
scaramanga said:
May was just following on from Blair/Brown with the authoritarianism, that was nothing new.

Markets are always the better option, just because Johnson can't see it, don't be blinded too.
Click to expand...
Competitive markets - yes.

Open free for all markets open to and/or not sufficiently regulated against collusion - no.

Markets where the product doesn't offer competitive alternatives (rail) or a non competitive supply chain (water, power - both for different reasons) - no.

Markets in basic human rights - no.
Although I will concede groceries are an exception to this and a good model. Primarily because it offers a huge range of choice, price points and service delivery. It's a very good competitive market and keeps the price taker balance for consumer and supplier at a decent level.
 
monkeybarry said:
Competitive markets - yes.

Open free for all markets open to and/or not sufficiently regulated against collusion - no.

Markets where the product doesn't offer competitive alternatives (rail) or a non competitive supply chain (water, power - both for different reasons) - no.

Markets in basic human rights - no.
Although I will concede groceries are an exception to this and a good model. Primarily because it offers a huge range of choice, price points and service delivery. It's a very good competitive market and keeps the price taker balance for consumer and supplier at a decent level.
Click to expand...
In the reference frame of all the things in the world, the number that cannot be provided by the market are very small. As you mention rail (tracks not services) and the delivery of water and electricity have no realistic competition.

What do you mean by not having markets in basic human rights? The housing market works just fine (but would be better without govt intervention) as does the one for clothing, etc. If unions and the govt would keep their noses the fudge out of it then the job market would work perfectly too.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back