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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

milo said:
Again, his performances have been sub-par and when he returned to fitness, we were in good form, you can understand Poch not wanting to disrupt a winning side.
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You aren’t seriously suggesting Toby was dropped purely based on form?
 
DeanoAustin said:
Tobias?
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Poch has chosen to keep him out because he wanted to back Sanchez. He hadn’t been forced to keep him out at all. In fact, it’s because he’s a Manager with a sincere interest in the long term health of this club that he thought backing Sanchez was the better long term play. He wants total commitment to the cause (one of our strategic advantages vs clubs with more money), he wants Sanchez to get game time to be truly first choice if Toby does move, and he wants to send a message to the best young players in the world that if you work hard, commit and play well, reputations mean nothing at Spurs and you will get the game time you need to become world class.

It was the right strategic move. Rose he handled expertly but that’s a Manager’s job. We only know of it because Rose went public but that balancing act of keeping players motivated when they believe they’ve earned more is going to be a common one among clubs. Even more so at ours, but as I say, it’s a trade off and the flip side is we can attract some of the best young players in the world and give them time to play. I’m sure Poch is smart enough to know he gets players like Sanchez because he gives them time, but it means we have previously paid less in wages, so players like Rose, Walker and Toby will quite rightly wonder if they can get a big final contract elsewhere as they hit their late 20s.

To be honest I don’t think Poch is even ready for Madrid or PSG yet. He isn’t someone with proven experience in the latter stages of Europe, or with the biggest egos. Right now he is someone that has proven to get the best out of young talent. As our club evolves, and we can afford bigger egos, and our young players become more established, he will get the opportunity to prove he is ready for Madrid, but he isn’t even there yet. He’s perfect for us, and if he keeps going, the emotional pull may be as such that he becomes our Wenger.
 
DeanoAustin said:
You aren’t seriously suggesting Toby was dropped purely based on form?
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Sanchez did not deserve to be dropped for the player who came back vs Rochdale. And I don’t think there was ever a point where Sanchez really deserved it. I think as I said above, it was the right long term play for a bunch of reasons as to why he kept Sanchez in the team. It was a situation Poch actively drove himself, he didn’t have hands tied behind his back with the only solution being to keep Toby out of the team.
 
Jesus lads, ye are reaching. Toby is a world class centre back. Sanchez is raw and error prone as his displays at Anfield and in Turin showed.

Everything else being equal, Toby is straight back in the side after injury and is allowed to play himself into form just like Harry over the last month.

Toby was frozen out because of the contract situation. If you’re denying that, you’ve no credibility. Poch made those decisions but he made them because the club’s wage structure and Toby’s agent caused that situation.

All other things being equal, Poch picks Toby all day long so he’s been forced into a decision he didn’t want to make.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Jesus lads, ye are reaching. Toby is a world class centre back. Sanchez is raw and error prone as his displays at Anfield and in Turin showed.

Everything else being equal, Toby is straight back in the side after injury and is allowed to play himself into form just like Harry over the last month.

Toby was frozen out because of the contract situation. If you’re denying that, you’ve no credibility. Poch made those decisions but he made them because the club’s wage structure and Toby’s agent caused that situation.

All other things being equal, Poch picks Toby all day long so he’s been forced into a decision he didn’t want to make.
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Can you name one Alderweireld performance, since he came back, which forced the issue? Is it wrong for Poch to take a long term view?
 
milo said:
Can you name one Alderweireld performance, since he came back, which forced the issue? Is it wrong for Poch to take a long term view?
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He didn’t get a run in the team. He was actually very good against Brighton - one of few.

Harry’s been terrible since he came back. Poch kept playing him. Coco didn’t do great for the first few weeks but Poch persisted.

Are you actually saying that Toby wouldn’t have been back in the team even if he’d signed a new contract?
 
Robspur12 said:
So, it turns out Poch can win big games. Good on him and the team.
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Hush, if we won it, it cannot have been big... ;)

I like how Poch has already come out to say that this is the time to talk about the future and what happens next and that there will be big discussions with Levy about what we do now.
That during the season it was not the time to talk about anything beyond the next game.
 
DeanoAustin said:
He didn’t get a run in the team. He was actually very good against Brighton - one of few.

Harry’s been terrible since he came back. Poch kept playing him. Coco didn’t do great for the first few weeks but Poch persisted.

Are you actually saying that Toby wouldn’t have been back in the team even if he’d signed a new contract?
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There’s something to be said for ‘buy into our mission and give me everything and I’ll pick you’ which clearly Kane does. Clearly Lamela does. Clearly Toby doesn’t.

And it’s fine. It’s business at the end of the day. But I don’t think this one instance that is always likely to happen under our strategy (strategy which gives us both positives and negatives) has suddenly made Poch think this isn’t worth his time. He took the long term view because he cares about the long term of our club, and views Sanchez as one of the best defensive prospects in world football.
 
DeanoAustin said:
He didn’t get a run in the team. He was actually very good against Brighton - one of few.

Harry’s been terrible since he came back. Poch kept playing him. Coco didn’t do great for the first few weeks but Poch persisted.

Are you actually saying that Toby wouldn’t have been back in the team even if he’d signed a new contract?
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And I would repeat again, if Poch wasn’t in this for the long term, and was a more Redknapp style Manager, Toby probably would have been straight into the team.

But we actually have a strategy now which exploits our advantages and covers our weaknesses. Poch did not have to freeze him out, but he chose to do it thinking the long term benefits outweighed the short term gains, if there were even any.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
There’s something to be said for ‘buy into our mission and give me everything and I’ll pick you’ which clearly Kane does. Clearly Lamela does. Clearly Toby doesn’t.

And it’s fine. It’s business at the end of the day. But I don’t think this one instance that is always likely to happen under our strategy (strategy which gives us both positives and negatives) has suddenly made Poch think this isn’t worth his time. He took the long term view because he cares about the long term of our club, and views Sanchez as one of the best defensive prospects in world football.
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The point you quoted was in answer to a post insinuating that Toby wasn’t in the team based purely on performance. Clearly that’s not the case.

You’re stating assumptions as a matter of fact (“Poch didn’t have to freeze him out but chose to do it thinking of long term benefits” and “Poch thinks Sanchez is one of the best defensive prospects in world football”) when you have no insight into the man’s decision making.

The story in the press is that Toby made a demand for 130k. Poch went to bat for him and Levy agreed. Then Toby saw what VVD was getting and upped his demand at which stage Poch and Levy told him to go jump.

That sounds plausible to me based on the facts in the public domain. One thing most people agree on, as much potential as Sanchez has, he’s not nearly as good as Toby and all things being equal, it’s hard to see anyone picking Sanchez over Toby.
 
DeanoAustin said:
The point you quoted was in answer to a post insinuating that Toby wasn’t in the team based purely on performance. Clearly that’s not the case.

You’re stating assumptions as a matter of fact (“Poch didn’t have to freeze him out but chose to do it thinking of long term benefits” and “Poch thinks Sanchez is one of the best defensive prospects in world football”) when you have no insight into the man’s decision making.

The story in the press is that Toby made a demand for 130k. Poch went to bat for him and Levy agreed. Then Toby saw what VVD was getting and upped his demand at which stage Poch and Levy told him to go jump.

That sounds plausible to me based on the facts in the public domain. One thing most people agree on, as much potential as Sanchez has, he’s not nearly as good as Toby and all things being equal, it’s hard to see anyone picking Sanchez over Toby.
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I don’t see how what you’ve said goes against what I’ve said? I’m not doubting there has been a contract ‘situation’. What I am saying is that Poch decided the best long term thing for us was to play the player who is long term committed, not the player who may well not be here longer than the next 3 months. And the one who has more potential. And the one who had been playing well. The idea that this was some situation that Poch was backed in to just isn’t true. He chose to handle it this way because he is a long term manager. If you want to argue the point he is thinking long term, fine. I just don’t really see what your argument is...that he wouldn’t have to deal with this kind of thing at another club? Players wanting transfers? Players wanting more money? As I said, he’s clearly chosen to keep Toby out. He could have just as easily brought
him back in, but he didn’t. Not because it was overly personal, not because Toby was being a negative influence on the rest of the squad, but because Poch is showing that commitment to the plan is the most important thing. I may be assuming this, only because I don’t literally work on the Spurs staff, but I think with a bit of logical thinking it’s actually pretty obvious that is what is happening.

It looks like from Poch’s quotes today that he is going to push all the way to enable us to make the step up to challenges City next year. It will be his job to get what he can, and it will be Levy’s job to give as much as he can while ensuring the long term future of the club. There may come a time when Poch thinks he’s earned a shot at a Madrid. There may also come a time where Levy thinks Poch isn’t the man to manage big egos and big budgets and is better suited to building a culture for young players. All of these things will always continue to be reassessed. But from what we’ve seen and heard from Levy, he’s said Poch is the best Manager he’s had and he would be happy to give him a 15 year contract. And from what we’ve heard from Poch, he’d be happy to take it. All of that may change, but this summer absolutely nothing is going to happen. He’s staying, he’s done an amazing job, and he’s got the opportunity now to operate at a bigger level than he’s ever done before, at a club that loves him rather than needing to prove himself elsewhere. He just isn’t going anywhere, and these things; Rose, Toby, have been handled expertly by a man that knows his strategy and knows what he wants to achieve. They certainly aren’t reasons to want to move, certainly not yet.
 
Pretty clear playing Sanches over Alderweireld is the long term choice if you had to describe one decision as such
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I don’t see how what you’ve said goes against what I’ve said? I’m not doubting there has been a contract ‘situation’. What I am saying is that Poch decided the best long term thing for us was to play the player who is long term committed, not the player who may well not be here longer than the next 3 months. And the one who has more potential. And the one who had been playing well. The idea that this was some situation that Poch was backed in to just isn’t true. He chose to handle it this way because he is a long term manager. If you want to argue the point he is thinking long term, fine. I just don’t really see what your argument is...that he wouldn’t have to deal with this kind of thing at another club? Players wanting transfers? Players wanting more money? As I said, he’s clearly chosen to keep Toby out. He could have just as easily brought
him back in, but he didn’t. Not because it was overly personal, not because Toby was being a negative influence on the rest of the squad, but because Poch is showing that commitment to the plan is the most important thing. I may be assuming this, only because I don’t literally work on the Spurs staff, but I think with a bit of logical thinking it’s actually pretty obvious that is what is happening.

It looks like from Poch’s quotes today that he is going to push all the way to enable us to make the step up to challenges City next year. It will be his job to get what he can, and it will be Levy’s job to give as much as he can while ensuring the long term future of the club. There may come a time when Poch thinks he’s earned a shot at a Madrid. There may also come a time where Levy thinks Poch isn’t the man to manage big egos and big budgets and is better suited to building a culture for young players. All of these things will always continue to be reassessed. But from what we’ve seen and heard from Levy, he’s said Poch is the best Manager he’s had and he would be happy to give him a 15 year contract. And from what we’ve heard from Poch, he’d be happy to take it. All of that may change, but this summer absolutely nothing is going to happen. He’s staying, he’s done an amazing job, and he’s got the opportunity now to operate at a bigger level than he’s ever done before, at a club that loves him rather than needing to prove himself elsewhere. He just isn’t going anywhere, and these things; Rose, Toby, have been handled expertly by a man that knows his strategy and knows what he wants to achieve. They certainly aren’t reasons to want to move, certainly not yet.
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The point specifically on Toby, if you read back, was in response to a poster who insinuated that Toby was out of the team purely based on talent/performance. That’s bull in my opinion. He’s out of the side because of his contract situation and Poch made a decision he wouldn’t have made if all other things had been equal.

My point on Poch is this. It’s conceivable he will walk away. His public statements since the semi final have been ambiguous. The man isn’t a fool and he doesn’t say “with me or another” without an agenda behind it. I don’t think he will leave but I’m not naive enough to think it can’t.

He has to manage a fairly unique situation around our wage ceiling amongst the elite clubs. He may, based on his public statements, not be getting the transfer/wage budget he was expecting. He is also dealing with a fan base that is expecting more and appreciating his overachievement less. He may even have had PSG or Madrid on the phone. Some or all of those factors may combine to give him second thoughts about his position.

Likewise, they may not but you'd have to be very naive or stubborn not to accept that there is a possibility he won’t be at Spurs next season.
 
DeanoAustin said:
The point specifically on Toby, if you read back, was in response to a poster who insinuated that Toby was out of the team purely based on talent/performance. That’s bull in my opinion. He’s out of the side because of his contract situation and Poch made a decision he wouldn’t have made if all other things had been equal.

My point on Poch is this. It’s conceivable he will walk away. His public statements since the semi final have been ambiguous. The man isn’t a fool and he doesn’t say “with me or another” without an agenda behind it. I don’t think he will leave but I’m not naive enough to think it can’t.

He has to manage a fairly unique situation around our wage ceiling amongst the elite clubs. He may, based on his public statements, not be getting the transfer/wage budget he was expecting. He is also dealing with a fan base that is expecting more and appreciating his overachievement less. He may even have had PSG or Madrid on the phone. Some or all of those factors may combine to give him second thoughts about his position.

Likewise, they may not but you'd have to be very naive or stubborn not to accept that there is a possibility he won’t be at Spurs next season.
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Ok, but there’s also the possibility Pep won’t be at City next season. Not a likely one, but if this is the level of the debate then we can open it up to absolutely everything.

If Toby was a class above Sanchez, in the same way he is a class above Foyth, I’m sure Poch would have brought him back in. @milo ’s point on performance was that Toby didn’t do enough to justify getting back in, and Sanchez didn’t do anything to deserve being dropped. Of course if there was no contract situation and no injury, Toby may have never left the team, but as we have discussed, long term strategy dictated playing Sanchez being the best move.

He may not be getting the transfer budget he was expecting, but I think he’s doing what anyone in his position would do. He’s been quite smart politically since he’s been at the club and his capital internally will probably never be stronger considering what he was achieved. It’s absolutely the right time for him to make a play for the cash he thinks he needs to build a team to win something. And it’s for Levy to push the limits as much as possible while keeping us sustainable long term. That is the right dynamic - the Chairman is the custodian and the Manager needs the resources to get better performances. These conversations happen at every club every season - it just so happens that in ours we’re now going to have more money to play with and CL for the 3rd year running. But these are opportunities and cause for optimism. I am not worried because I don’t think Levy is going to want to slow our progress or jeopardise the relationship with Poch, and I think Poch is aware enough of what we can and can’t do financially that he isn’t going to be too downhearted with what he gets. I believe in them both, and I love the ambition Poch has. If anything I think Levy will have a slightly more longer term view than any coach (and progress shows over the last decade that we should trust him in this regard) but I also think Poch is a coach that has made his career on not needing money and developing players, more than any other, so I can’t imagine both finding another place they will be as appreciated by one another.
 
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