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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Good point, who knows, might be a mix of both.

The sub rumour is abit of a fallacy, Poch first sub is around 65 mins, one beef by people is he waits too long.

Someone posted a link that shows he waits till the 69th minute on average before making the first sub in a game. Only Soton wait longer in the Premier League before making their first sub.
 
Mourinho for one. I accept he has better players to choose from but he's also unafraid to be ruthless and hook people when he needs to. I remember one time he made a double sub in the first half of a game during his first stint at Chelsea. Can you ever imagine Poch doing something that bold?

It's not 400% about his subs (although his decision to sub Son was baffling) its the fact that he leaves it so long before making any changes, even when it's clear to everyone except him that we need to make a change. It's different when you're on top and you can see that a goal is coming but that wasn't the case yesterday.
While making (non injury/red card related) substitutions in the first half of games can be seen as being brave, it is also something that can have an extremely negative effect on the player/squad. Being hooked in the firsts half is a very embarrassing thing for a player and doing this can lead to the relationship breaking down between that player and manager.

The decision to hook Son was only baffling because he has scored goals previously. He was having a poor game IMO, completely ineffective. I thought Ali was worse and perhaps should've come off before Son, but one thing that Ali was doing that Son wasn't was getting on the ball so perhaps that influenced Poch's decision?
 
While making (non injury/red card related) substitutions in the first half of games can be seen as being brave, it is also something that can have an extremely negative effect on the player/squad. Being hooked in the firsts half is a very embarrassing thing for a player and doing this can lead to the relationship breaking down between that player and manager.

The decision to hook Son was only baffling because he has scored goals previously. He was having a poor game IMO, completely ineffective. I thought Ali was worse and perhaps should've come off before Son, but one thing that Ali was doing that Son wasn't was getting on the ball so perhaps that influenced Poch's decision?

Yeah I accept you're taking a risk by subbing people and embarrassing them but that comes with being the manager. I wouldn't expect him to make a habit of it. Plenty of managers make subs at half time when they can see something isn't working. I believe Matic got subbed after coming on as a sub for Chelsea, he told the media that he was disappointed to be subbed but that he was professional and quickly got over it. Obviously Poch has to manage who he believes he can do that too and who he can't but it's his job to manage the players and their egos.
 
Good point, who knows, might be a mix of both.

The sub rumour is abit of a fallacy, Poch first sub is around 65 mins, one beef by people is he waits too long.
65 minutes is too long sometimes. It’s obviously dépendant on the game situation but 65 minutes is very often too long to wait when things clearly aren’t working.
 
Would love to see stats on subs on whose subs have made an impact when chasing games. I suspect the vast majority of Subs for good clubs are when winning and sowing up the win. Is there any manager known for great subs?

Iirc, last season Giroud had quite an impact off the bench for the Goons.
 
He does. It was clear after 10 minutes that our setup wasn't working - nothing changed between then and the 65th minute.

Subs do appear to work, and the general suggestion is that using them all is a good thing:
https://statsbomb.com/2014/01/smart-use-of-substitutes-can-make-a-difference/

Most people acknowledge that the game today is not just about the X1 but the whole team and bench together. Poch doesn't seem to accept this and his subs seem to be made reactively rather than proactively.
 
Most people acknowledge that the game today is not just about the X1 but the whole team and bench together. Poch doesn't seem to accept this and his subs seem to be made reactively rather than proactively.
Everything I read from him suggests he feels the largest part of his job is on the training ground.

I don't dispute that - whatever it is he does is mostly working.

I just think the final finesse of getting the team ready for a match and changing it when it's not working is missing
 
Everything I read from him suggests he feels the largest part of his job is on the training ground.

I don't dispute that - whatever it is he does is mostly working.

I just think the final finesse of getting the team ready for a match and changing it when it's not working is missing

Bingo! But any employee who neglects an important part of his role is surely sadly lacking. I sometimes think Poch would be better served if he was a double act like Clough and Taylor, with an alter ego addressing the areas you aren't so good at.
 
Pochettino and Klopp from one extreme to the other.
I dont want a Klopp but Poch looks far too flat IMHO.
I think he's been even quieter recently. But it could be just my imagination.
 
The Southampton game was not really a good example when making a case about Subs seeing as the subs Poch did make had little impact on the game. Kane aside, not sure if anyone was playing well enough to warrant staying on.

Sissoko for all his faults was at least trying to be progressive towards the end of the game. Hard as it may be to accept, the Southampton game was just a bad day at the office.

We should factor in when being critical of Poch and his substitutions, he unlike us fans, has much more to think about than just the game in front of him. There are several players coming back from injuries, one of whom has already had a set back. The pitch at St Mary's was heavy, perhaps he was concerned about the effect on some of his substitutes. Without him commenting on it we will never know the reason. However, as I have said before, he seems a very studious guy and one thing I am sure if we can see an issue he will have seen it too; only he has a better idea, having more information than us, what the solution is.

I am always cautious asserting such a bold statement as "Poch doesn't do subs well" when I have such limited information to base the assertion on. I am reminded of Gary Neville and Alan Shearer criticising players and managers from the comfort of their studios. When they were given the opportunity to manage they realised it was more difficult than they thought.
 
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Please find someone whos said hes pants? For the 1,000th time everyone acknowledges he's progressed us, but does this mean he is beyond criticism? He has won zero trophies in his managerial career and so hasnt earnt the right to be treated like he can do no wrong. He has flaws or aspects of his style that have been highlighted a lot of times and are right to be questioned, so dont make out like it is just some knee jerk to a disappointing performance....

But it isn’t just criticism, it becomes some finite expedition into a world of excavating definitive “facts” about sub-use, set-pieces, etc. No-one has even mentioned that he lost a sub to Aurier’s injury. You and I have had this conversation before mate - criticism is all good, but howling and hollering without context? Sorry. Lets face blunt facts about yesterday. If Sissoko, Lamela or Kane had taken one of the three easy chances they had, this discussion is on-ice.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Of course he does, but we hear this rationale every time. Do you think he doesn't make mistakes? Every football manager in the world could hide behind that excuse. You cant use flu as an excuse, this isnt a one off game being questioned with his subs etc

One thing Poch did which was positive was second half he put Son in the middle and he was more involved than the first half and looked more threatening. Then he chose to take him off for Lamela which I couldnt believe but hey ho....

One thing none of us know, or should know, is who was under the weather. Maybe Son was at the limit. I am guessing a few were under the weather. Again, information we do not have, but because of that book, a lot of people adding up potentially incorrectly...


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
I'd like to see Poch at least talking to the players, instructing them, changing things. Seems he sits back for vast swathes of the game, and you can see VERY little from sitting in the dugout, you are so low down.

I don't want him sprinting down the line and celebrating and gurning, but he should be advising players about what to do, encouraging them to do more work or encouraging them to continue doing what they are doing... he has a huge role to play during 90 minutes but spends 80 minutes absent.
 
I think you get this a lot with football, with fans across all clubs, where a Manager will either pick a player or make decisions that seem to utterly incomprehensible to the fans watching that they think the only possibility is that the Manager must be doing something so stupidly wrong, and there is no other explanation. It is one of my biggest annoyances with discussing football in general that a group of people can feel so sure about something despite having no where near the level of complete information compared to the man that they are criticizing.

Of course Managers make mistakes, just like every single human in every single walk of life. Because this is a competitive game based on a lot of random factors at an elite level, and it is impossible for any person to predict the future and get everything right. All they can do, is make decisions that they think will work to their benefit the majority of the time. Sometimes that won't work, but this post is not to say Managers don't make mistakes, but is to say that if a group of people working off of incomplete information are so, so sure of something that is supposedly so, so wrong, maybe there is something else at play? And maybe it is not about mistakes vs perfect decision making, but maybe it is about understanding the process of making those decisions and appreciating not just the short term aspect that you see in front of you, but all of the long term considerations as well.

For instance, with this subs narrative that is now creeping up. Apparently Poch is bad at subs. Apparently he either waits too long or continually makes the wrong decisions, and apparently those subs always fail to change the game. But forgetting for a second that more often than not, we are winning and therefore don't need to be chasing the game with subs. And forgetting for a second that players have acknowledged that Poch regularly makes significant, but subtle changes to shape multiple times in a game which the players acknowledge have a great effect on the overall result, consider the following: Poch is one of the most sports science conscious managers there is. He knows his tactics, he has a preferred style of play, and he is good on the man management side of things as far as everyone that has worked under him seems to say. But the key thing that probably allows us to compete with far wealthier clubs and frankly operate at a level that even 5 years ago we probably couldn't dream of doing, is because of the knowledge and faith he places in sports science and conditioning. It is a base which informs the strategy, the style of play, how you manage each individual player etc and is so important as a competitive advantage that it is what he bases a lot of his decision making on. He first built a squad, trusted in youth and established a culture at the club where he could run these players into the ground, break them, and show them that they would be better for it, so now that is established and allows them to get to a physically higher level than they've ever reached.

So when we look at his subs, or his team selection more broadly, let's ask ourselves why he is so much more prescriptive about subs, and how many minutes he tries to get in to each player (he regularly talks about getting minutes into players, playing themselves into form but there is a conditioning aspect to this too, so that we can peak at the right times). Let's ask ourselves why over every single season under Poch, we can pretty much plot a consistent curve between an average points gained differential between the first halves of the season and the second, to the point where our coming into form is almost predictable, to the point where we have hit heights greater than we have ever hit before. We do this because Poch and his team are so tuned in to the condition of the players as a strategic advantage, and how many minutes they have informs how much they can be pushed, that it has to be managed down to a seriously meticulous level, otherwise its not an advantage any more. So he's clear on rotation of full backs. He's clear on how many minutes he gives each player in a match, and broadly it works. It is a strategic choice.

And that choice will start being 'wrong' when we no longer start hitting the heights that we are now capable of hitting over the course of a season, where the short term potential benefits of abandoning the conditioning and tactical plans are not recognised, and neither are the long term ones where we can almost predict when our form will peak. Conditioning at this level is not an accident, and it is managed to a meticulous level. There is no surprise that Arsenal always have a run of 9 wins out of 10 towards the end of every season, because they are managed in something of the same way. So yes, we take a hit on maybe not throwing the kitchen sink at Southampton through subs, but we benefit from long term thinking and predictable runs of form. And it is this thinking that enables us to compete. It will stop being the right thing for us to do when it stops working long term, but over-reacting to short term results or dropped points is not the time or the way to be judging what is overall part of the strategy that has enabled us to compete.
 
I agree we don't have all the facts about illness e.g. maybe Lamela and Son were a bit ill in the last game.
I agree Poch apparently makes lots of tactical switches during each game, but I must miss most of them / he must communicate them via semaphore.

I don't agree Poch is 'getting minutes into players' in some detailed, subtle, sports science way. I think he flogs certain players game after game after game because they are our best players, and he swaps others here and there, but I don't see a masterplan with Eriksen/ Kane/ Alli rested etc.

Also, there have been lots of games where we are 3-0 or 4-0 up and he chose not to get some game time into fringe players or youth players, flogging the same players until 85 minutes.
 
I agree we don't have all the facts about illness e.g. maybe Lamela and Son were a bit ill in the last game.
I agree Poch apparently makes lots of tactical switches during each game, but I must miss most of them / he must communicate them via semaphore.

I don't agree Poch is 'getting minutes into players' in some detailed, subtle, sports science way. I think he flogs certain players game after game after game because they are our best players, and he swaps others here and there, but I don't see a masterplan with Eriksen/ Kane/ Alli rested etc.

Also, there have been lots of games where we are 3-0 or 4-0 up and he chose not to get some game time into fringe players or youth players, flogging the same players until 85 minutes.

One thing I have noticed about Kane is that he needs rhythm to be at his optimal best. Too long between games and he can miss chances he puts away when he is on two games a week. He is a rare breed, but like a racehorse or top quality vehicle, they need to be run often.I think the same with Dele TBH. Eriksen just seems able to endure, and if Winks was fit I'd be up for resting him now and again. But with the likes of Kane, playing time is important. I expect him to get 15 or 20 against Newport, if only because of the Utd match coming up...
 
One thing I have noticed about Kane is that he needs rhythm to be at his optimal best. Too long between games and he can miss chances he puts away when he is on two games a week. He is a rare breed, but like a racehorse or top quality vehicle, they need to be run often.I think the same with Dele TBH. Eriksen just seems able to endure, and if Winks was fit I'd be up for resting him now and again. But with the likes of Kane, playing time is important. I expect him to get 15 or 20 against Newport, if only because of the Utd match coming up...

I’d add Dembele to the list of motors that need to be kept running. We played him against Barnsley this season when he was in the midst of an inconsistent run of playing, loads of niggling injuries and admitting that his foot is always going to hurt him. People would be forgiven for thinking ‘why risk him in a pointless game’ but it was so important to
get minutes into him.
 
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