Juande Ramos

[Robspur12]

In isolation yes. But 10 years of CL football will bring the club a lot further than 10 years of league cup wins.CL participation was important to us signing VdV and keeping star players. Our league cup win saw us lose Berbatov and Keane the following summer, no?

Financially yes but actually 10 years of sustained success in the cups brings advantages too. Increasing the fan base and sponsorship as every one wants to be associated with success. I think we are deluding ourselves if we think that 10 years of champions league football per se would have meant us hanging on to Berba, Carrick Modric or Bale, it didn't help L'****. Maybe I'm old school but I'm definitely in the billy yiddo camp on this

 

[Superhudd]

Winning the league cup will not help us hold onto our best players.

Personally, I loved our Champions League campaign. It felt like we were finally at the top table.

Its what Sky Sports have made the British Public feel they should be feeling in terms of the pinnacle which was inline with there now famous top 4 instead of wining the league garbage.

Will be interesting the next few years when Sky doesn't have the Champions League.. will they go there usual M O of making out that it does not exist. Look at the FA cup. They report championship games on soccer Saturday with there reserve bench of McInally, Walsh etc instead of FA cup games. They may even move away from top 4 champions league qualification too.
The biggest show of this was Formula One, you would be lucky to get 15 second spot on SSN reporting the result. Since they got full rights for every race and behind the scenes rubbish, they throw a whole channel at it. Its there marketing strategy.

Will be interesting that for sure how Sky play this. Will they big up a product on a rival channel, and will the public be brainwashed into thinking about the CL like the FA Cup

 

[Superhudd]

BTW, I prefer to winning trophies all day long.. As Defoe said on that hour programme about his life, he will feel his career is a failure if he doesn't win anything. That is how fans should feel too.

 

[braineclipse]

Financially yes but actually 10 years of sustained success in the cups brings advantages too. Increasing the fan base and sponsorship as every one wants to be associated with success. I think we are deluding ourselves if we think that 10 years of champions league football per se would have meant us hanging on to Berba, Carrick Modric or Bale, it didn't help L'****. Maybe I'm old school but I'm definitely in the billy yiddo camp on this

Again, in isolation.

In context 10 years of sustained cup success isn't going to happen. CL participation does bring more money into the club that could boost our chances of long term success both in terms of CL participation and cup success.

What would have done more in those individual 4 examples when we lost those 4 players do you think? A league cup win or CL qualification. For me there's no doubt that CL football makes it more likely that we can keep our best players.

Say what you want, I think consistent CL football has helped Arsenal a lot. A hell of a lot actually.

Its what Sky Sports have made the British Public feel they should be feeling in terms of the pinnacle which was inline with there now famous top 4 instead of wining the league garbage.

Will be interesting the next few years when Sky doesn't have the Champions League.. will they go there usual M O of making out that it does not exist. Look at the FA cup. They report championship games on soccer Saturday with there reserve bench of McInally, Walsh etc instead of FA cup games. They may even move away from top 4 champions league qualification too.
The biggest show of this was Formula One, you would be lucky to get 15 second spot on SSN reporting the result. Since they got full rights for every race and behind the scenes rubbish, they throw a whole channel at it. Its there marketing strategy.

Will be interesting that for sure how Sky play this. Will they big up a product on a rival channel, and will the public be brainwashed into thinking about the CL like the FA Cup

The correlation between financial power and league results is pretty strong. Sky can say whatever they want, the reason Arsenal and Manu are where they are right now is continued CL participation at a key time in their development as a club.

CL brings money, probably an order of magnitude more than a league cup win at least. That money matters.

 

[braineclipse]

BTW, I prefer to winning trophies all day long.. As Defoe said on that hour programme about his life, he will feel his career is a failure if he doesn't win anything. That is how fans should feel too.

I can't dance with that (other than the part where you're telling other fans how to feel).

Doesn't make a cup win better than a CL qualification in terms of what's best for the club long term, that's a very different issue to what emotionally feels better for the players and the fans.

 

[Robspur12]

Again, in isolation.

In context 10 years of sustained cup success isn't going to happen. CL participation does bring more money into the club that could boost our chances of long term success both in terms of CL participation and cup success.

What would have done more in those individual 4 examples when we lost those 4 players do you think? A league cup win or CL qualification. For me there's no doubt that CL football makes it more likely that we can keep our best players.

Say what you want, I think consistent CL football has helped Arsenal a lot. A hell of a lot actually.



The correlation between financial power and league results is pretty strong. Sky can say whatever they want, the reason Arsenal and Manu are where they are right now is continued CL participation at a key time in their development as a club.

CL brings money, probably an order of magnitude more than a league cup win at least. That money matters.

Which is great if profit and money are your goals such as L'**** but it's brought them no nearer to titles or euro success. In fact with all that money they have finished one point ahead of us 2 seasons in a row. I will have to agree to disagree about champs league giving us a better chance of keeping our best players there is no evidence for this, in fact on the contrary Arsenal have failed to hang on to their best players despite the Champs League and were unable to attract Suarez despite it. You just cannot resist the likes of Real or Man Utd if they come calling for your players. In those circumstances you might as well go for cup success.

 

[braineclipse]

Which is great if profit and money are your goals such as L'**** but it's brought them no nearer to titles or euro success. In fact with all that money they have finished one point ahead of us 2 seasons in a row. I will have to agree to disagree about champs league giving us a better chance of keeping our best players there is no evidence for this, in fact on the contrary Arsenal have failed to hang on to their best players despite the Champs League and were unable to attract Suarez despite it. You just cannot resist the likes of Real or Man Utd if they come calling for your players. In those circumstances you might as well go for cup success.

As you point out some players Arsenal had to sell despite being in the CL. I think they would have had no chance of hanging on to them without CL football. Replace CL football with a league cup win and those players still leave. On the other hand they managed to keep hold of players like Henry, Fabregas and van Persie for a rather long time actually, would they without CL football? We'll never know, but I don't think so.

They weren't able to attract Suarez, do you really think a league cup win would have made the difference? No way imo. On the other hand they were able to attract Ozil, do you think perhaps that would have been harder without CL football?

My goals are not profit and money, but if you look at Arsenal the success they had up until their new stadium was completed was built upon the financial power that consistent CL football got them. Replace CL participation with league cup wins for them 3-4 years out of that vital period in the '90s and I think they would have been much worse off going into the '00s.

 

[Robspur12]

As you point out some players Arsenal had to sell despite being in the CL. I think they would have had no chance of hanging on to them without CL football. Replace CL football with a league cup win and those players still leave. On the other hand they managed to keep hold of players like Henry, Fabregas and van Persie for a rather long time actually, would they without CL football? We'll never know, but I don't think so.

They weren't able to attract Suarez, do you really think a league cup win would have made the difference? No way imo. On the other hand they were able to attract Ozil, do you think perhaps that would have been harder without CL football?

My goals are not profit and money, but if you look at Arsenal the success they had up until their new stadium was completed was built upon the financial power that consistent CL football got them. Replace CL participation with league cup wins for them 3-4 years out of that vital period in the '90s and I think they would have been much worse off going into the '00s.

Without a doubt Champs league is important, my point is on it's own finishing 4th every season does not guarantee any additional success or make you more likely to keep hold of any more players than winning trophies. What you need is both and winning trophies including the League cup which you so readily belittle in your posts help breed a winning mentality. A point that has been highlighted by both Jose Mourinho and Manuel Pellegrini. So my point that you might as well go for cups even the League cup is valid because you need both trophies and champs league participation for sustained success in the long run.

 

[braineclipse]

Without a doubt Champs league is important, my point is on it's own finishing 4th every season does not guarantee any additional success or make you more likely to keep hold of any more players than winning trophies. What you need is both and winning trophies including the League cup which you so readily belittle in your posts help breed a winning mentality. A point that has been highlighted by both Jose Mourinho and Manuel Pellegrini. So my point that you might as well go for cups even the League cup is valid because you need both trophies and champs league participation for sustained success in the long run.

If Mourinho or Pellegrini got a league cup win without qualifying for the Champions League I think there's a very good chance they'd be sacked, at least if it happened two seasons in a row. I think they know that.

Finishing 4th doesn't guarantee additional success. Obviously, there are no guarantees. But I disagree that CL football doesn't make it more likely that you hold on to your players than winning the league cup (somewhat that part of the discussion seems to have been lost in your post, that's the specific discussion here - not 'trophies').

Do you really think Arsenal would have been able to hold on to Henry and Fabregas as long as they did had they dropped out of CL football two years in a row, but won the league cup both years instead?

You obviously need both, and you need to push towards moving on once reaching one goal - 4th is not the final destination. But saying that you need both isn't really an answer if two beneficial situations are being weighed up against each other and we're given a hypothetical choice.

 

[Robspur12]

If Mourinho or Pellegrini got a league cup win without qualifying for the Champions League I think there's a very good chance they'd be sacked, at least if it happened two seasons in a row. I think they know that.

Finishing 4th doesn't guarantee additional success. Obviously, there are no guarantees. But I disagree that CL football doesn't make it more likely that you hold on to your players than winning the league cup (somewhat that part of the discussion seems to have been lost in your post, that's the specific discussion here - not 'trophies').

Do you really think Arsenal would have been able to hold on to Henry and Fabregas as long as they did had they dropped out of CL football two years in a row, but won the league cup both years instead?
You obviously need both, and you need to push towards moving on once reaching one goal - 4th is not the final destination. But saying that you need both isn't really an answer if two beneficial situations are being weighed up against each other and we're given a hypothetical choice.

Well Liverpool were able to keep hold of Gerrard and Suarez despite not having Champs league and we were able to attract Berba, VDV, Modric and Bale without it. I think the direct comparison of League cup vs champs league misses the point - I have never said that Mourinho or Pellegrini would only want to win the League cup. I suspect though if they won nothing but just qualified for the Champs league alone they would also lose their jobs, look at Mancini last season and well Chelsea are not a good example of what's needed to keep your job. We are not at a level where we can win the PL or Champs League so like it or not we should be going for those domestic trophies or EL as well as top 4 otherwise we just become like the scum down the road.

 

[braineclipse]

Well Liverpool were able to keep hold of Gerrard and Suarez despite not having Champs league and we were able to attract Berba, Modric and Bale without it. I think the direct comparison of League cup vs champs league misses the point - I have never said that Mourinho or Pellegrini would only want to win the League cup. I suspect though if they won nothing but just qualified for the Champs league alone they would also lose their jobs, look at Mancini last season and well Chelsea are not a good example of what's needed to keep your job. We are not at a level where we can win the PL or Champs League so like it or not we should be going for those domestic trophies or EL as well as top 4 otherwise we just become like the scum down the road.

They've also been able to keep those players despite not winning anything, so I'm not sure how that supports your point.

I agree that we should try to go for both, but the entire discussion started with the direct comparison between the league cup and CL qualification so if that comparison misses the point then I don't quite see what case you're trying to make in that particular discussion...

 

[Robspur12]

They won the league cup 2 seasons ago mate

 

[braineclipse]

They won the league cup 2 seasons ago mate

You honestly, seriously, think that's the reason why they managed to keep Suarez this summer?

Yeah, I'm bowing out of this discussion...

 

[Robspur12]

You honestly, seriously, think that's the reason why they managed to keep Suarez this summer?

Yeah, I'm bowing out of this discussion...

Relax mate it was a joke.

 

[Superhudd]

Champions League for me is like winning the lottery yet realising you have no one special to share it with.

 

[Jordinho]

:ross:

Jokes aside, he's a potential top manager if he makes the next step up to Championship level.

 

[milo]

Well Liverpool were able to keep hold of Gerrard and Suarez despite not having Champs league and we were able to attract Berba, VDV, Modric and Bale without it. I think the direct comparison of League cup vs champs league misses the point - I have never said that Mourinho or Pellegrini would only want to win the League cup. I suspect though if they won nothing but just qualified for the Champs league alone they would also lose their jobs, look at Mancini last season and well Chelsea are not a good example of what's needed to keep your job. We are not at a level where we can win the PL or Champs League so like it or not we should be going for those domestic trophies or EL as well as top 4 otherwise we just become like the scum down the road.

Liverpool only managed to hold onto Suarez in the summer because no one made a realistic offer.

Gerrard is a bit different. He is a local boy, was made captain very young and when he was in his prime, Liverpool were always going to win the title the following season.

 

[Superhudd]

Is that the same Gerard that was on his way to Chelsea to play for Mourinho in his first stint only to turn back on the deal due to death threats to his family

 

[braineclipse]

Champions League for me is like winning the lottery yet realising you have no one special to share it with.

But with both you suddenly come into some money meaning that you can buy that certain special someone At least for a while...

Honestly though, with all of the positive CL experiences I think there was more joy in that CL qualification than the last league cup win for me overall, by some distance. Although that was a better CL performance than we could expect on average if get back in of course.

 

[Robspur12]

Liverpool only managed to hold onto Suarez in the summer because no one made a realistic offer.

Gerrard is a bit different. He is a local boy, was made captain very young and when he was in his prime, Liverpool were always going to win the title the following season.

But if Suarez had really wanted to go to Arsenal he could have forced a move. In the end the lure of playing for also rans like the scum have become was not enough.