Coronavirus

[Grays_1890]

True. The Tories have been in power for 10 years...

We all know or should know that it’s not as simple as that, each government that comes in has to react to the one before, as Scara mentions this all comes down to the start of the NHS and is subsequent management thereafter by all governments

Also if we are talking the “not every 100 years” then Labour should have started the plan in 2002 to deal with a potential SARS, based purely on your theory because I don’t think we should have, just offering an alternative.

 

[thfcsteff]

Wait till she becomes a teenager and your wife goes through the change. Enjoy hahahaha

Lived it my brother, two-thirds of the way through the other side...enjoy hahahahahahahaha indeed!!!!! This might require its own thread!

 

[Seedy Ron]

Well it is because the others mentioned are not on this scale. And if we take the view that post SARS means there should have been a plan then that would have been on the administrations before Boris, not him.

Yes it should have been in place long before this, I'm not blaming specific governments. Alan Johnson often talks about the pandemic plan they had in place, which presumably would also have been insufficient to the task.

We did test this out a little while ago, and didn't do much with the result from the look of things?

 

[Grays_1890]

Yes it should have been in place long before this, I'm not blaming specific governments. Alan Johnson often talks about the pandemic plan they had in place, which presumably would also have been insufficient to the task.

We did test this out a little while ago, and didn't do much with the result from the look of things?

probably because like anything the reality is very different to theory.

 

[Mikey10]

We all know or should know that it’s not as simple as that, each government that comes in has to react to the one before, as Scara mentions this all comes down to the start of the NHS and is subsequent management thereafter by all governments

Also if we are talking the “not every 100 years” then Labour should have started the plan in 2002 to deal with a potential SARS, based purely on your theory because I don’t think we should have, just offering an alternative.

So it’s not the party which has been in power for 10 years fault?

Yes - that makes a lot of sense.

 

[Parklaner81]

So it’s not the party which has been in power for 10 years fault?

Yes - that makes a lot of sense.

Not ascribing fault, but a pandemic was deemed 'overdue' before swine 'flu more than ten years ago, so the roots of the plan should go a lot deeper than that.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Surely then if this plan should have been in place that it goes back further than a guy who is in power 2 months? Any failing on the NHS and planning surely spans more than one administration??

I'm not partisan. In a time like this, it doesn't matter which party is in charge. What is important is they have an effective rapid response. The government did manage to build a new temporary hospital (which is what other nations have done). What they have not done is sort out testing or effective kit for NHS staff. Maybe because they were all suffering with the virus? You'd think with the nation's resources at their disposal, testing of NHS workers at the least might have been realised by now?

Hope Bojo makes a speedy recovery. And that we see testing rolled out widely. There are limits to what can be done and what can be accelerated. We can't magic up a virus cure tomorrow. We can expect a vaccine overnight, but we can test everyone and isolate the virus. At the moment, the reality is, asymptomatic NHS staff are probably spreading the virus to patients. While a huge amount of NHS staff self isolate (when only a small percentage have the virus).

Korea, Germany, Singapour, China have managed to get testing moving. We need to see it happening here soon for me to have confidence in this government.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Surely then if this plan should have been in place that it goes back further than a guy who is in power 2 months? Any failing on the NHS and planning surely spans more than one administration??

It's Bill Gates fault...TED talk...bottomless pit of money...whose he prepared for this ?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I'm not partisan. In a time like this, it doesn't matter which party is in charge. What is important is they have an effective rapid response. The government did manage to build a new temporary hospital (which is what other nations have done). What they have not done is sort out testing or effective kit for NHS staff. Maybe because they were all suffering with the virus? You'd think with the nation's resources at their disposal, testing of NHS workers at the least might have been realised by now?

Hope Bojo makes a speedy recovery. And that we see testing rolled out widely. There are limits to what can be done and what can be accelerated. We can't magic up a virus cure tomorrow. We can expect a vaccine overnight, but we can test everyone and isolate the virus. At the moment, the reality is, asymptomatic NHS staff are probably spreading the virus to patients. While a huge amount of NHS staff self isolate (when only a small percentage have the virus).

Korea, Germany, Singapour, China have managed to get testing moving. We need to see if happening here soon for me to have confidence in this government.

He appeared pretty stand offish about the antibody test in today's briefing...think what has been offered up to them is not up to it, so the timeframe for having one is back to 'unknown'

 

[Grays_1890]

So it’s not the party which has been in power for 10 years fault?

Yes - that makes a lot of sense.

I don’t think it’s any parties fault, I’m using your logic which would mean that as Labour started their 2nd term in 2002 when SARS broke and was in for a fair time thereafter it was in them to start and “react” to the global landscape. Purely based on the standards being expressed here.

 

[Hootnow]

It’s not realistic for the country to run at a surplus in the NHS including space, staff and supplies for once every 100 years.

We've already been over this though.

The NHS isn't running at a surplus though, far from it. We're below average in terms of beds, ICU beds, doctors per 1000 pop, nurses per 1000 pop (in fact near the bottom of Europe and the OECD on many of these) and have a lower spending per capita and % of GDP for healthcare than every member of the G7 other than Italy.

Having the NHS running comfortably, rather than almost collapsing every winter because we're running at a deficit compared to almost every other advanced HC system would be a good start to dealing with an issue like this.

 

[Mikey10]

I don’t think it’s any parties fault, I’m using your logic which would mean that as Labour started their 2nd term in 2002 when SARS broke and was in for a fair time thereafter it was in them to start and “react” to the global landscape. Purely based on the standards being expressed here.

They may well have done. They may have laid a base which wasn’t built on. They also may not.

What Labour can’t be blamed for is this government’s initial blasé approach to this virus (including Boris’s ‘last gasp’ joke and Dominic Cummings’ comments about ‘only a few thousand pensioners dying’); the lack of PPE available to NHS staff; the gradual erosion of the NHS in general over the past decade; the lack of testing compared to other countries; and, now, what looks like the misinformation we have been given over the PM’s condition...which leads you to wonder what else we are not being told.

Anyhow, it will all come out in the wash eventually. For now, let’s hope we get through the worst of it in the next couple of days - and that everyone who is struggling with this virus gets better.

 

[Mikey10]

We've already been over this though.

The NHS isn't running at a surplus though, far from it. We're below average in terms of beds, ICU beds, doctors per 1000 pop, nurses per 1000 pop (in fact near the bottom of Europe and the OECD on many of these) and have a lower spending per capita and % of GDP for healthcare than every member of the G7 other than Italy.

Having the NHS running comfortably, rather than almost collapsing every winter because we're running at a deficit compared to almost every other advanced HC system would be a good start to dealing with an issue like this.

That’ll be the Labour administration’s fault...

 

[Hootnow]

Genuine question here

What is effective testing, surely if NHS staff are tested the results are only valid for the day they are at work, then exposed again. So they aiming for daily testing??

Nope, we are unfortunately past this stage now, we missed our window to do this. This kind of aggressive testing is exactly what South Korea and Taiwan have done and have done so actually while keeping their economy and society (relatively) more open than we're now doing. Though still with some economic damage.

I'll try to explain how testing would help as best as I can.

Currently, if you are unwell (with fever, shortness of breath, cough) as a doctor or nurse, you have to self isolate for 7 days. If someone in your household is unwell with the same symptoms, you have to self isolate for 14 days (regardless of whether you have symptoms or not). This is in line with government recommendations for the country.

The reality of this is that currently, approximately 25% of my team is at home, self isolating in some way. Some of them are showing no symptoms at all. This is placing incredible strain on the rest of the team.

If we could test, we could avoid that self isolation period and get people to work earlier, helping us to stem the tide further.

 

[Grays_1890]

We've already been over this though.

The NHS isn't running at a surplus though, far from it. We're below average in terms of beds, ICU beds, doctors per 1000 pop, nurses per 1000 pop (in fact near the bottom of Europe and the OECD on many of these) and have a lower spending per capita and % of GDP for healthcare than every member of the G7 other than Italy.

Having the NHS running comfortably, rather than almost collapsing every winter because we're running at a deficit compared to almost every other advanced HC system would be a good start to dealing with an issue like this.

That’s what happens when you have one of if not the largest free healthcare system in the world and a lower taxation than those that are officially ranked high aka Scandinavia and Germany. Added to that the U.K. public moan about rising tax it’s a joint effort.

 

[Hootnow]

I have to say, I feel slightly guilty. My trust has been excellent so far, generally very supportive and our surge capacity and forward planning has been truly sensational. We've coped very well so far. Our PPE guidelines are different from the rest of the country and they are protecting us very well.

I am hearing from other colleagues in other trusts though that they're being forced to see patients, sometimes without masks because there aren't enough and being told to 'hold their breaths'. And being threatened with severe repercussions if they don't or if they kick up a fuss. Its disgusting.

I of course wish Johnson a speedy recovery and of course as the PM, he should receive premium care. However, it saddens me in a way that he is being treated in St Thomas, a premium institution and in the private wing of that hospital, where I'm sure he'll be receiving care from consultants only. There would be no better time for him to see what most of the country deals with.

 

[Mikey10]

Nope, we are unfortunately past this stage now, we missed our window to do this. This kind of aggressive testing is exactly what South Korea and Taiwan have done and have done so actually while keeping their economy and society (relatively) more open than we're now doing. Though still with some economic damage.

I'll try to explain how testing would help as best as I can.

Currently, if you are unwell (with fever, shortness of breath, cough) as a doctor or nurse, you have to self isolate for 7 days. If someone in your household is unwell with the same symptoms, you have to self isolate for 14 days (regardless of whether you have symptoms or not). This is in line with government recommendations for the country.

The reality of this is that currently, approximately 25% of my team is at home, self isolating in some way. Some of them are showing no symptoms at all. This is placing incredible strain on the rest of the team.

If we could test, we could avoid that self isolation period and get people to work earlier, helping us to stem the tide further.

I hope you are doing okay, buddy. Take care.

 

[Hootnow]

That’s what happens when you have one of if not the largest free healthcare system in the world and a lower taxation than those that are officially ranked high aka Scandinavia and Germany. Added to that the U.K. public moan about rising tax it’s a joint effort.

You mean a joint effort between the Tories and the British public? No arguments there, they didn't vote themselves in.

But regardless of that, I wish, with all due respect, that you would not keep on talking about the NHS running at a surplus to deal with a pandemic, as if it is ridiculous for the 6th richest country in the world to have higher than average metrics compared to the dozens of countries in the EU or OECD. Or I would even settle for average at this point to be honest, so our hospitals don't become a brick show every single winter. Ignore the once in a generation pandemic happening now.

 

[Hootnow]

I agree with your general view, though I think you're a little harsh on the final point.

There may well be a degree of arrogance involved, but I'd suggest moreso that the Asian countries populations are, generally speaking, more obedient of their governments than in the west and therefore inherently better suited to a lockdown scenario. Governments have a massive balancing act to achieve in blending the medical science with social policy, and the west is at a natural 'handicap' in circumstances such as these.

I personally think this is where the idea of graduating the restrictions here in the UK came from. It remains to be seen how successful or otherwise the approach will ultimately be but I can see the logic and the difficulties behind the decisions, and I'm willing to cut the government some slack on the basis of that.

Yep I agree that Asian populations are definitely more obedient than their Western counterparts (and arguably more considerate of the collective good, which has both benefits and negatives).

Perhaps I am misremembering but I'll be honest, I don't remember much concern from people around me about the virus or much obvious planning from Western countries? They seem to have been reacting rather than planning. Hence their desperate scrap for PPEs, ventilators, reagents once the number of cases started to increase etc etc. I get the feeling many thought of it as an 'Asian virus' that we didn't need to trouble ourselves with.

I also wouldn't say that the Asian countries have necessarily taken a unified approach to this. Taiwan, SK, HK, China, Japan, Singapore, Australia (I know not technically Asian but they're in the region) have all taken quite different approaches. Not all of which has necessarily required some kind of iron discipline from their populations.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Yep I agree that Asian populations are definitely more obedient than their Western counterparts (and arguably more considerate of the collective good, which has both benefits and negatives).

Perhaps I am misremembering but I'll be honest, I don't remember much concern from people around me about the virus or much obvious planning from Western countries? They seem to have been reacting rather than planning. Hence their desperate scrap for PPEs, ventilators, reagents once the number of cases started to increase etc etc. I get the feeling many thought of it as an 'Asian virus' that we didn't need to trouble ourselves with.

I also wouldn't say that the Asian countries have necessarily taken a unified approach to this. Taiwan, SK, HK, China, Japan, Singapore, Australia (I know not technically Asian but they're in the region) have all taken quite different approaches. Not all of which has necessarily required some kind of iron discipline from their populations.

Australia and China are going to come to blows soon, will be an interesting watch.