Coronavirus

[ricky2tricky4city]

Nope, we are unfortunately past this stage now, we missed our window to do this. This kind of aggressive testing is exactly what South Korea and Taiwan have done and have done so actually while keeping their economy and society (relatively) more open than we're now doing. Though still with some economic damage.

I'll try to explain how testing would help as best as I can.

Currently, if you are unwell (with fever, shortness of breath, cough) as a doctor or nurse, you have to self isolate for 7 days. If someone in your household is unwell with the same symptoms, you have to self isolate for 14 days (regardless of whether you have symptoms or not). This is in line with government recommendations for the country.

The reality of this is that currently, approximately 25% of my team is at home, self isolating in some way. Some of them are showing no symptoms at all. This is placing incredible strain on the rest of the team.

If we could test, we could avoid that self isolation period and get people to work earlier, helping us to stem the tide further.

i was surprised the other day that the figure quoted was 2000 NHS front line staff had been tested. Considering how far we were into the crisis and we were starting to run at 5,6,7000 tests a day, to have only tested 2k overall was pee poor.

 

[Hootnow]

Australia and China are going to come to blows soon, will be an interesting watch.

We'll see I guess.

The problem when you 'go it on your own' is you're kind of at the mercy of these bigger powers.

I don't think Australia can ever come to blows with China because China has made Australia rich and is their biggest trading partner by some distance (only 5 billion less than their next 3 trading partners combined). China essentially owns Australia realistically.

 

[Grays_1890]

That’ll be the Labour administration’s fault...

fact is based on your example that’s exactly where it should have started based on last major outbreak and your expectation on reaction. If you can prove there measures were put in place in the subsequent 8 years of labour government, the party in power during SARS who would have been privy to all the core data and faces with it in 2002 then I would agree.

Hey you can mock but I’m just using your logic and expectations here.

And as I’ve said Many times I’m a lifetime Labour man who stopped voting due to the Anti Semite issue so it’s not political point scoring.

I just find it an extremely reactive nature to slaughter at every turn someone who is dealing with something unknown which it ultimately is when it starts all from our armchairs.

I just feel that if 10,000 died or 100,000 died people would slaughter Boris but the reality is people are going to die, that’s uncomfortable to say or admit but it’s the consequence of a pandemic.

I keep seeing about Korea, one major factor there is they are brick scared of the government and a bunch of blind followers which in this case is probably a good thing, because If you want someone to blame and actually do the maths the public are doing more harm than Boris by their constant flouting of the rules. The fact you can spread this to 20,000 people in just 10 sequences of contact proves that, so maybe the false fury at one mans door should be at the publics for not doing their duty.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I know of a very very large employer in the outsourcing sector who were offered a 1M masks at market rate at the end of February from a leading manufacturer. They took two weeks to decide and brought 60000.... the employ around 500000 people

now their being told it’s 4 times the cost and a lad time

the whole reason the didn’t buy the 1M was they could t work out how to code it financially as a central purchase

and that’s a blue chip moderately slick outfit.

now multiply that by about 10 to get the the government level of needs and also lack of process and flexibility

and the funny thing I find is the reason the government processes are in place and are cumbersome and slow is to protect the tax payers money... os that dept doesn’t end up in the same papers that are now complaining their not reacting quick enough

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We'll see I guess.

The problem when you 'go it on your own' is you're kind of at the mercy of these bigger powers.

I don't think Australia can ever come to blows with China because China has made Australia rich and is their biggest trading partner by some distance (only 5 billion less than their next 3 trading partners combined). China essentially owns Australia realistically.

That’s part of the problem isn’t it
China is now looking to buy up Australian businesses that are struggling...
A struggle caused by a virus that is perceived to come from China

 

[Hootnow]

That’s part of the problem isn’t it
China is now looking to buy up Australian businesses that are struggling...
A struggle caused by a virus that is perceived to come from China

China has owned Australia for a long time before this virus and will likely do so after this virus.

In a few years, we'll be bent over for either China or the USA as well I'm sure.

 

[Grays_1890]

But regardless of that, I wish, with all due respect, that you would not keep on talking about the NHS running at a surplus to deal with a pandemic

That was the view of a hugely respect U.K. Dr who said it was an unreasonable expectation and that if people stayed out of parks and stopped being idiots we would deal with it more effectively based on the maths previously mentioned.

I think his POV had merit

 

[Hootnow]

I keep seeing about Korea, one major factor there is they are brick scared of the government and a bunch of blind followers which in this case is probably a good thing, because If you want someone to blame and actually do the maths the public are doing more harm than Boris by their constant flouting of the rules. The fact you can spread this to 20,000 people in just 10 sequences of contact proves that, so maybe the false fury at one mans door should be at the publics for not doing their duty.

I have to say, while I agree that Asians are generally more obedient and trusting of their governments, some of the characterisations are borderline offensive imo.

Asians are not some placid people. Korea has a thriving democracy and civil society

The whole reason South Korea has its numbers rather than Taiwan or Singapore like numbers is because when they still had it under control, one of their stupid citizens didn't listen and broke their quarantine. Their Christian sect carried on having huge meetings even when the government told them not to.

They have impeached a president, who is now sitting in prison. Can you picture the British or American justice systems doing that?

 

[SpurMeUp]

He appeared pretty stand offish about the antibody test in today's briefing...think what has been offered up to them is not up to it, so the timeframe for having one is back to 'unknown'

Forget that. Just a postive negative test for all NHS staff, then the wider population would do.

Italy were taking blood tests to ascertain anitbodies. These are not normal times, our nation is effectively at war. The government must mobilise unprecedented measures and fast. If that means the army working with Glaxo Smith Clyne, and the NHS to setup testing, do it! I can not understand the month's delay, leaving the NHS and people exposed.

 

[Hootnow]

That was the view of a hugely respect U.K. Dr who said it was an unreasonable expectation and that if people stayed out of parks and stopped being idiots we would deal with it more effectively based on the maths previously mentioned.

I think his POV had merit

The UK doctor thinks its an unreasonable expectation to fund our healthcare system to the same level as other G7 or European countries? They think its unreasonable for the 2nd richest country in Europe to have amongst the lowest doctors, nurses, beds and ICU beds per 1000 population in Europe and the OECD? What exactly is the rationale there?

The point about being staying out of parks and taking social distancing, hygiene and isolation more seriously is a valid and accurate one (and would help us control things better) but has nothing to do with how the NHS generally runs. Nor do we need to pretend that funding the HC system properly and not being amongst the worst in those parameters is some kind of ridiculous preparation for a once in 100 year pandemic. Doing it would be to have a decent HC system that doesn't almost collapse every winter these days, not to prepare for the next pandemic in 2087.

 

[Mikey10]

Forget that. Just a postive negative test for all NHS staff, then the wider population would do.

Italy were taking blood tests to ascertain anitbodies. These are not normal times, our nation is effectively at war. The government must mobilise unprecedented measures and fast. If that means the army working with Glaxo Smith Clyne, the NHS and army to setup testing, do it! I can not understand the month's delay, leaving the NHS and people exposed.

This might help to explain it. Unfortunately we are all trapped in an endless re-run of Carry on Governing.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...prime-ministers-health?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

[Grays_1890]

The UK doctor thinks its an unreasonable expectation to fund our healthcare system to the same level as other G7 or European countries? They think its unreasonable for the 2nd richest country in Europe to have amongst the lowest doctors, nurses, beds and ICU beds per 1000 population in Europe and the OECD? What exactly is the rationale there?

The point about being staying out of parks and taking social distancing, hygiene and isolation more seriously is a valid and accurate one (and would help us control things better) but has nothing to do with how the NHS generally runs. Nor do we need to pretend that funding the HC system properly and not being amongst the worst in those parameters is some kind of ridiculous preparation for a once in 100 year pandemic. Doing it would be to have a decent HC system that doesn't almost collapse every winter these days, not to prepare for the next pandemic in 2087.

No that’s you saying that, I have a small sound bite from a larger conversation so let’s not manipulate it into something it was not

 

[Hootnow]

For a little medical update on Johnson's status by the way:

-What we've been seeing in many places is that the median time from symptom onset to ICU admission (if needed) is 11 days
-These patients can deteriorate INCREDIBLY quickly. It is not uncommon for patients to be chugging along steadily for a few days. And then within 12-24 hours to go from needing no Oxygen, to a few litres via the nasal cannulae (prongs up the nose) to a face mask giving 15L (maximum amount) to needing ventilation (a machine breathing for you (or at least helping you to breathe) on the intensive care unit.
-Preliminary date from the UK (few days old now in fairness) is that about half of our patients going on a ventilator have died, which is a bit higher than in other countries. Johnson isn't on one yet.
-However, the mortality rate (overall) for patients in their 50s seems to be about 1% worldwide at the moment.
-He (as far as we're aware ) doesn't have medical issues so that is something going for him.


Good luck to him and hope he recovers soon. Not least because we'll see less of Raab.

 

[Grays_1890]

I have to say, while I agree that Asians are generally more obedient and trusting of their governments, some of the characterisations are borderline offensive imo.

Asians are not some placid people. Korea has a thriving democracy and civil society

The whole reason South Korea has its numbers rather than Taiwan or Singapore like numbers is because when they still had it under control, one of their stupid citizens didn't listen and broke their quarantine. Their Christian sect carried on having huge meetings even when the government told them not to.

They have impeached a president, who is now sitting in prison. Can you picture the British or American justice systems doing that?

Easier to herd sheep, sorry if that’s offensive but that’s what it is. Death penalty and still rule with censorship and an edge of obedience and fear. There was a huge example of that in the shipping disaster when they gave the people questioning the orders and they all followed, a nation where military fear still lives to an extent.

Even the Son thing was questionable “win and you don’t have to serve in the military”. That’s a borderline threat as military service is obviously seen as a worry for most, so win the Asia cup and you won’t have to, because if people wanted to serve it wouldn’t be on the table or they would throw matches and serve.

 

[Hootnow]

Easier to herd sheep, sorry if that’s offensive but that’s what it is. Death penalty and still rule with censorship and an edge of obedience and fear. There was a huge example of that in the shipping disaster when they gave the people questioning the orders and they all followed, a nation where military fear still lives to an extent.

Even the Son thing was questionable “win and you don’t have to serve in the military”. That’s a borderline threat as military service is obviously seen as a worry for most, so win the Asia cup and you won’t have to, because if people wanted to serve it wouldn’t be on the table or they would throw matches and serve.

South Koreans are no more censored in their media than we are in the UK. They unseated a president, impeached her and put her in prison.

As for the death penalty, I don't believe they've executed anyone in SK since 1997, unlike the USA for instance, which continues to be in the top 10 for executions worldwide every year, sharing the list with countries like Somalia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, Iraq...Yet I doubt most would call Americans sheep.

Of course most people don't want to spend 2 years in the army. Just like Israel or Taiwan though, they do it due to their unique geopolitical situation. Not becasuse they're programmed to follow like sheep. Its why most celebrities are keen to not be seen getting around it in nefarious ways, because the backlash against it (from normal people) usually cuts their celebrity careers short. The issue isn't with the government's response, its peer pressure and public reaction that does them.

 

[Hootnow]

No that’s you saying that, I have a small sound bite from a larger conversation so let’s not manipulate it into something it was not

So what were you (and they) saying then?

The initial comment was about how its not realistic for the country to run at a surplus in the NHS, including space, staff and supplies. I pointed out a few days ago that we are actually running at a deficit, both for our own self confessed needs and also when measuring parameters against other, similar countries.

Not for a pandemic that has come once in 100 years, but for normal day to day working. Which leaves us less able to deal with pandemics when they do arrive.

I'm not sure where the argument is here or what point the other doctor was making exactly tbh.

 

[SpurMeUp]

@Hootnow do you it is fair to say there is a 50-50 change our national leader will die? Those seem to be the stats for those entering intensive care with this virus.

He's not too old, used to run. And maybe doctors are treating him with extra sensitivity because of his position ie they might put him in intensive care before they would others, as a precaution.

Get well Boris.

 

[Grays_1890]

South Koreans are no more censored in their media than we are in the UK. They unseated a president, impeached her and put her in prison.

As for the death penalty, I don't believe they've executed anyone in SK since 1997, unlike the USA for instance, which continues to be in the top 10 for executions worldwide every year, sharing the list with countries like Somalia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, China, Iraq...Yet I doubt most would call Americans sheep.

Of course most people don't want to spend 2 years in the army. Just like Israel or Taiwan though, they do it due to their unique geopolitical situation. Not becasuse they're programmed to follow like sheep. Its why most celebrities are keen to not be seen getting around it in nefarious ways, because the backlash against it (from normal people) usually cuts their celebrity careers short. The issue isn't with the government's response, its peer pressure and public reaction that does them.

Still huge censorship there, internet and content, libraries and although getting better the words and criticism of certain government issues is still censored.

Any off piste, fact is be it fear or obedience based on an edge of fear which I believe is why it’s worked in Korea better.

Look at the weekend here, take the Government reaction rate out of this, Joe public here are now acting atrociously and doing more harm based on the accelerator rates

 

[Grays_1890]

@Hootnow do you it is fair to say there is a 50-50 change our national leader will die? Those are the stats for those entering intensive care with this virus.

He's not too old, used to run. And maybe doctors are treating him with extra sensitivity because of his position ie they might put him in intensive care before they would others, as a precaution.

Get well Boris.

My mother is in the NHS, not that she knows his situation however from her limited knowledge on this she says it’s not a good sign

 

[Kandi1977]

Things going wrong in certain countries isn't entirely due to bad preparation. Its largely also got to do with trust. If people don't trust the governments decisions, they won't follow them either. Britain is split 50/50, largely due to the Brexit shambles. In Norway, people trust and follow the guidelines and rules set by the government, regardless of political view.