Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Ignoring totally we played Liverpool, City, arsenal and Leicester away under poch (and took points BTW), whereas Jose has had a much kinder run.

You can only beat whats in front of you. There arent extra bonus points for playing better teams.

I could equally argue while Poch had a harder run - Mourinho was starting with a broken and dispirited side - at a real disadvantage.

Point being, we can argue endlessly the minutia of it all, but ultimately form is better under Mourinho.

 

[glasgowspur]

You can only beat whats in front of you. There arent extra bonus points for playing better teams.

I could equally argue while Poch had a harder run - Mourinho was starting with a broken and dispirited side - at a real disadvantage.

Point being, we can argue endlessly the minutia of it all, but ultimately form is better under Mourinho.

I've seen one game were we played better, Burnley, the rest has been results papering over cracks, the exact same was happening under poch for 2019.
The manager isn't/wasnt the problem, the players are.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

If you boil it all down.............

nothing has much changed.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Yeah that was a bit of a drunken red mist rant tbf

But people wanted the change because they felt the issue was the manager and they weren't willing to give him time and a new squad, bit of an about turn to now plead patience imv (even though that is what is needed)

I didn’t want Poch gone. Was apathetic as to whether he stayed or left as I felt he had checked out so to speak and also felt he had lost the dressing room. I don’t disagree that the squad needs surgery, I just felt he should have done better with the players at his disposal. Our run of form for the entirety 2019 was quite frankly abysmal, there’s no way we should have been losing to teams like Saudi Sportswashing Machine, West Ham, Brighton etc without scoring. His tenure as a whole was a resounding success despite a lack of funds. That doesn’t mean I don’t think he should have won at least one trophy with the players he had. I got a bit fed up of watching us not turn up in semis and finals, there was no progression in that sense. We still looked like scared rabbits in big games and only won when we had nothing left to lose (Ajax).

As for Mourinho, I feel he’s past it as a manager and hasn’t moved with the times as teams are a lot more attacking now. I’m not convinced his play chicken and hope for a 1-0 works anymore. That said, he is here now and any new manager deserves time as he has inherited players that aren’t his.

 

[Robspur12]

Ignoring totally we played Liverpool, City, arsenal and Leicester away under poch (and took points BTW), whereas Jose has had a much kinder run.

Agreed I think the difference is marginal at best. Both are top managers and both are finding the same problems.

For me what is worrying is if these 2 managers cannot solve our problems, isn't it a sign of a greater malaise in the squad.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I haven’t heard anything. One of the points i tried to make is that Levy needs to be dynamic enough to change what was perhaps his original strategy - ie make do with the current crop, and we as fans should accept this, if it takes the club forwards out of this mess, rather than insist we maintain the same constraints Poch had, just so we can “compare apples with apples” for any MP/JM debate, whilst the club continues to struggle.

I don’t think anyone wants the same constraints at all, and everyone wants José to succeed because that will means we are succeeding. It’s not about comparing to be proven right, it’s simply saying that the decision to remove one manager and replace with another is not in isolation, it has consequences and it needs to be a decision that is gotten right.

Overall, we need to refresh. Poch called it 2 years ago and maybe Poch calls for it earlier because he prefers working with younger players. But it still needs to happen. We can’t cheat the natural biology of this sport and just never have to spend any money. Players’ capability and motivations change. So to get us out of the domestic rut, we are going to have to rebuild. Whether that’s José or Eddie Howe or Sherwood at the helm, it needs to happen for us to progress from where we are today. So this isn’t about comparing José to Poch - either way a refresh needs to happen and Jose gets to benefit somewhat from the idea that this isn’t all his fault, because the issues are broader.

The only point I’m trying to make is, I think Levy gambled on the idea that this squad hasn’t had its last day just yet, and they still had more to give if they heard a different voice. And if it meant we could re-sign players that looked to be out and save money on signing replacements, it would make a lot of sense to try it. That’s the bull case for the decision Levy made. The bear case is that José over the course of the rest of the season doesn’t get any more out of this squad than Poch would have done anyway, because the issues are broader than one manager, and a rebuild needs to take place no matter how long Levy tries to put it off. And if we do that, we’ve sacked a great Manager who thought about our progression over the long term in order to bring someone in who provides short term success but usually pretty horrible wreckage at the end.

This is why I say, Jose needs to deliver top 4 or trophies. Then he and Levy share in the fact that they are bloody awesome, born winners and guys with massive balls who make the tough decisions and act when no one else would. But if they don’t, they deserve the criticism. Actually Levy will deserve it more than José - because if the issues are broader it’s not Jose’s fault that he couldn’t turn the tanker. Levy makes the calls and wears his decisions for good or bad.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You can only beat whats in front of you. There arent extra bonus points for playing better teams.

I could equally argue while Poch had a harder run - Mourinho was starting with a broken and dispirited side - at a real disadvantage.

Point being, we can argue endlessly the minutia of it all, but ultimately form is better under Mourinho.

New manager bounce is a thing though, it’s more often than not an advantage, particularly when a squad has been under performing. The advantage of a new voice providing some added vigour and opposition teams not being able to scout and counter you as easily usually leads to a boost.

I don’t really want to compare them as I think the issues are broader - and I don’t think it particularly matters if we end the season without a trophy or top 4 anyway. I don’t think we were getting relegated under Poch so unless we save this season, it hasn’t worked out.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

New manager bounce is a thing though, it’s more often than not an advantage, particularly when a squad has been under performing. The advantage of a new voice providing some added vigour and opposition teams not being able to scout and counter you as easily usually leads to a boost.

I don’t really want to compare them as I think the issues are broader - and I don’t think it particularly matters if we end the season without a trophy or top 4 anyway. I don’t think we were getting relegated under Poch so unless we save this season, it hasn’t worked out.

So we should have just stuck with Poch then?

 

[Grays_1890]

People are not asking Jose to win the league in his first season just a better showing that yesterday with a far more talented team would do.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

So we should have just stuck with Poch then?

I would say it’s not just sticking with Poch, because it’s an untenable situation if on the one hand you have Levy not trusting Poch anymore, not agreeing with Poch’s view of what needs to be done to take the club forward etc, and on the other you have Poch feeling like he has one hand tied behind his back.

We worked so well when Levy was in lockstep with his manager and he acted because he wanted to get someone who agreed with him on the route forward. That was Jose. If we stuck with Poch, it would have to have been by trusting in his decisions and showing him that he was trusted, getting truly on the same page. Somewhere along the line, Levy lost whatever it was that made him trust Poch. I’d bet it was likely the fact that a bunch of players wanted out because they’d felt they’d given all they can. Poch knew that and wanted those players gone too - Levy either didn’t want to go that route or didn’t feel the club was capable.

If the club wasn’t capable then fair fudges, Levy did what he could in the best interests of the club. But Poch never struck me as a guy that was asking for unreasonable money, more just to stop mucking around signing squad players, and if we’re gonna spend, spend it on elite players like Liverpool did.

We could have gone Poch’s route, and that’s the fork in the road I’m talking about. But the choice wouldn’t have just been Poch, and let the situation continue indefinitely, or Jose. If you went Poch’s route, you had to really believe in the way he wanted to do things, and back him. If you couldn’t, it was never going to work.

Poch’s sacking was a lot like a break up. Maybe it all becomes moot if Jose is successful and Levy’s decision will be vindicated. But if the same issues remain and we needed a rebuild regardless, maybe it’s the kind of thing where you needed some time apart to realise what you had, and that you should have trusted each other more in the first place. The beauty and the maddening thing about sport is that results are going to dictate which one of those things holds true, and nothing else.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Watching us at the moment is really worrying. Any team that decides to press us high is likely to get a result against us and as more teams see this, more teams will play that way against us.

I think in a few of the recent games it has been clear that the opposition have had FAR more desire than we have. We were second to every single ball against both Chelsea and Southampton. I can always accept being outplayed but IMO nothing excuses a lack of effort and there are several players in our team who are coasting in some games at the moment.... Dele, Moura, Son, Kane and Eriksen are all clearly going through the motions at times, even Vertonghen now looks like he is playing like Alderweireld was before Mourinho came in. We cannot win games with so many players not giving their all for the team.

Just as worrying is that In all of the last four games we have played the opposition have looked better coached than us, they have a better shape than us when out of possession, defending as a team and staying compact, while also having defined ways of moving the ball forward. Our defence and even our defensive midfielders are getting a lot of stick at the moment, but IMO our difficulties often come from our attacking players not bothering to defend. It is really easy for opponents to create overloads on us out wide as the likes of Moura, Son and Dele don't bother to defend. So many times I see our opponents playeres give the ball and go and Son/Dele/Moura simply not bothering to track the run, this then forces our central midfielders to have to come out wide to assist, leaving space inside.

Our attacking play is just as bad as our defensive play. It looks like we have no set patterns of play to move the ball forward. We're either playing long passes to feet to the likes of Moura and Dele who aren't capable of holding on to it so that we can get other players up in support or hit long high balls to Kane who isn't really built to win them. Towards the end of the game yesterday we were resorting to hoofing long balls up as though we were still playing with Llorente on, as opposed to it being Lucas Moura.

I know that Mourinho isn't a magician but it seems to me that after a little all too brief new manager bounce, our attacking and defensive shape has reverted to being just as bad as the period before he joined.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I've seen one game were we played better, Burnley, the rest has been results papering over cracks, the exact same was happening under poch for 2019.
The manager isn't/wasnt the problem, the players are.

I think things are quite different, personally.

We can go at length with it, but ultimately I suspect neither of us really want to.

Short version - things were falling apart under Poch, slowly they are coming together again (IMO).

I stand by the view that management certainly is/was a big part of the problem. And to be fair, I dont think anyone argued it was the ONLY problem.

Its clearly a big job.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Watching us at the moment is really worrying. Any team that decides to press us high is likely to get a result against us and as more teams see this, more teams will play that way against us.

I think in a few of the recent games it has been clear that the opposition have had FAR more desire than we have. We were second to every single ball against both Chelsea and Southampton. I can always accept being outplayed but IMO nothing excuses a lack of effort and there are several players in our team who are coasting in some games at the moment.... Dele, Moura, Son, Kane and Eriksen are all clearly going through the motions at times, even Vertonghen now looks like he is playing like Alderweireld was before Mourinho came in. We cannot win games with so many players not giving their all for the team.

Just as worrying is that In all of the last four games we have played the opposition have looked better coached than us, they have a better shape than us when out of possession, defending as a team and staying compact, while also having defined ways of moving the ball forward. Our defence and even our defensive midfielders are getting a lot of stick at the moment, but IMO our difficulties often come from our attacking players not bothering to defend. It is really easy for opponents to create overloads on us out wide as the likes of Moura, Son and Dele don't bother to defend. So many times I see our opponents numbers give the ball and go and the aforementioned players simply not bothering to track the run, this then forces our central midfielders to have to come out wide to assist, leaving space inside.

Our attacking play is just as bad as our defensive play. It looks like we have no set patterns of play to move the ball forward. We're either playing long passes to feet to the likes of Moura and Dele who aren't capable of holding on to it so that we can get other players up in support or hit long high balls to Kane who isn't really built to win them. Towards the end of the game yesterday we were resorting to hoofing long balls up as though we were still playing with Llorente on, as opposed to it being Lucas Moura.

I know that Mourinho isn't a magician but it seems to me that after a little all too brief new manager bounce, our attacking and defensive shape has reverted to being just as bad as the period before he joined.

Common theme in those teams you referenced in those games... they have guys who have been in charge much longer than Jose... and by much longer I mean even the guy who has been in charge the shortest next period has been in charge 4 times longer or more than Jose.
And our manager has had only one actual week with the team with no games in that week. Add to that in that time he gave some players time off (Kane went to lap land with his wife and kids in that time).

When people talk about players being coached and drilled you have to remember that takes time and will. Can’t comment on will much but we do know that some players didn’t have it with Poch in charge.

Time... well I’d like to think we give the guy more than a couple of months before flagging up things that are certainly no worse than they were before hand and in points terms have been better

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yeah but plenty have already said.... told ya so!!!!

I think the "told ya so's" are simply those who felt that the problem was not the manager but the squad that had stagnated and had far too many players approaching the end of contracts.

I think we could've got Jurgen Klopp or Pep Guardiola in and would still be having the same problems.

We need to use the transfer market wisely and quite significantly in this January and Summer 2020 windows. My worry is that we have no money left to do so.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think the "told ya so's" are simply those who felt that the problem was not the manager but the squad that had stagnated and had far too many players approaching the end of contracts.

I think we could've got Jurgen Klopp or Pep Guardiola in and would still be having the same problems.

We need to use the transfer market wisely and quite significantly in this January and Summer 2020 windows. My worry is that we have no money left to do so.

Why do you think we have no money?
I did the sums a while back and we have plenty of money now
The issue of course is can we get who we want, when we want

 

[Finney Is Back]

How and when do you see the changes playing out?

I think we need the following:

1st choice LB
1st choice RB
1st choice DCM
Back up striker
Additional AM with pace
Potentially a CB but I see Dier dropping in there once the midfield is sorted.

It’s a huge undertaking and we’ve already been tipped off that nothing will happen in Jan. I do actually think January is a bad recruitment time unless it’s a long term target that suddenly became available.

And a keeper.... The man standing between the sticks for us at the moment is a very poor keeper IMO.

 

[braineclipse]

I think the "told ya so's" are simply those who felt that the problem was not the manager but the squad that had stagnated and had far too many players approaching the end of contracts.

I think we could've got Jurgen Klopp or Pep Guardiola in and would still be having the same problems.

We need to use the transfer market wisely and quite significantly in this January and Summer 2020 windows. My worry is that we have no money left to do so.

There were a combination of issues. One was the manager, that's now hopefully sorted out for a while. Others remain.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I've seen one game were we played better, Burnley, the rest has been results papering over cracks, the exact same was happening under poch for 2019.
The manager isn't/wasnt the problem, the players are.

My thoughts are that we looked good against Burnley as they didn't look to come out and beat us, they played their usual, cagey, sit back and defend game and generally we have enough quality on the ball to beat these sorts of teams when we have time to play... The Burnley performance was akin to the performance earlier in the season against Palace (another team that sat back and let us have the ball). Come and press us though and we haven't a clue what to do, that was the same for Pochettino and also for Mourinho IMO.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We have 30pts.

Mourinho won us 16 of them in 9 games (1.78 ppg).

Poch was at 14 pts in 12 (1.17 ppg).

Mourinho is already outperforming Poch, despite having no time with the players, and despite being dropped in mid season.

He doesnt have the luxury of experience and knowledge of the players, existing relationships etc. Or of them knowing him and his expectations/methods etc.

Yes, he is running into similar issues, and at times making similar mistakes.

Seems rather foolish, to me at least, to be trying to hold him to the same expectations at this point though.

And even if you are - he is actually doing better...

Considering we apparently have the 3rd best squad in the league (or apparently even the 2nd best according to one particular nutter on here) 1.78 points per game isn't particularly good. Over a 38 game season it would give us 68 points. That would've been good enough for a 6th place finish in two of the last three seasons and a 7th place finish in the other.

My only hope is that we didn't just see an all too brief new manager bounce from Mourinho taking over with our performances now reverting to the mean.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Considering we apparently have the 3rd best squad in the league (or apparently even the 2nd best according to on particular nutter on here) 1.78 points per game isn't particularly good. Over a 38 game season it would give us 68 points. That would've been good enough for a 6th place finish in two of the last three seasons and a 7th place finish in the other.

My only hope is that we didn't just see an all too brief new manager bounce from Mourinho taking over with our performances now reverting to the mean.

I think we certainly do have one of the best squads in the league.

That doesnt mean Jose didnt inherit a huge mess though does it? Do people really expect him to click his fingers and everything will be hunky dory?

Considering what he started with, 1.78ppg is bloody good, IMO. And considering its been 6 weeks Im quite happy with that at this point.

Its a marked improvement on what was before. Now I hope he gets the chance to start developing the side more comprehensively.

Would be nice if he could get a consistently available selection in midfield to start with...