Where is it going wrong in attack?

[scaramanga]

Benteke's hold up play along the floor would be good, he can hold up the play along the floor like Berbatov. He's not just a knockdown merchant. Right now we are playing the ball to Soldado and it is going straight back downfield. Benteke gives us an option of laying it off or spinning his marker and going for goal. It allows for more variation in our play.

You can only lay it off if you have support - our strikers have no support so Benteke would be no better than what we have.

You can only spin your marker and head towards goal if you are left with just one (or sometimes two) marker(s). Teams don't play against us the way they do Villa - Benteke would receive the ball for us, turn his man and find the other 9 outfield players and the keeper still in his way. If he can get past all of them and score on a regular basis, I'll buy him for the club myself.

 

[mudshark]

Paulinho's shots from distance could form part of an answer to the conundrum, too, if they had either the power or the accuracy necessary. Sadly, so far, it appears his long-range shooting is a bit more Didier Zokora than Gareth Bale.

 

[harr1984]

You can only lay it off if you have support - our strikers have no support so Benteke would be no better than what we have.

You can only spin your marker and head towards goal if you are left with just one (or sometimes two) marker(s). Teams don't play against us the way they do Villa - Benteke would receive the ball for us, turn his man and find the other 9 outfield players and the keeper still in his way. If he can get past all of them and score on a regular basis, I'll buy him for the club myself.

Well not really, Benteke would still be turning a Cb, would just be further up field as teams defend deeper against us. Unless you're saying teams line up with five banks of CBs against us which I've yet to see.....

 

[scaramanga]

Well not really, Benteke would still be turning a Cb, would just be further up field as teams defend deeper against us. Unless you're saying teams line up with five banks of CBs against us which I've yet to see.....

They just pack the middle with everyone available. If we got the ball to our forward-most player on the pitch, you can guarantee that the area between him and the goal would suddenly get very congested. Unless of course the opposition are operating some weird zonal defence system where people aren't allowed to cover (never seen anything like that before).

 

[NWND]

I don't actually understand why Eriksen was dropped. He looked very promising in his first few games, but had one 'dodgy' one against West Ham, where he didn't necessarily have a bad game, just let it pass him by a bit (partly because WHam did a good job of starving him of the ball) and suddenly he's demoted?

Eriksen looks like he can make things happen most times he gets on the ball and i think like said above we should stick him in and keep him there. I also think Lamela should be given a run as again he looks like has something about him creativily and definately movement wise and how is he ever supposed to adapt to the PL if he never gets played in it?

 

[billyiddo]

Is it a case of him being dropped or more a case of Holtby earning a chance in the team?

 

[diego_maradona]

I don't actually understand why Eriksen was dropped. He looked very promising in his first few games, but had one 'dodgy' one against West Ham, where he didn't necessarily have a bad game, just let it pass him by a bit (partly because WHam did a good job of starving him of the ball) and suddenly he's demoted?

Eriksen looks like he can make things happen most times he gets on the ball and i think like said above we should stick him in and keep him there. I also think Lamela should be given a run as again he looks like has something about him creativily and definately movement wise and how is he ever supposed to adapt to the PL if he never gets played in it?

I think AVB's vision is to have a squad which functions regardless of the personnel who plays. Holtby deserved a go in the side based on his performances this season. I think the vision for Andre is whoever he brings in the team continues to win and we are not so reliant on one superstar.

 

[mudshark]

They might be wanting to keep a bit of pressure off Lamela until he finds his feet with the language and so on. Otherwise, he might start retreating into his shell and wanting out. Just a hunch...

 

[Gutter Boy]

We still haven't won by a three goal margin at home in the Premier League under AVB. Not a big thing necessarily, but it shows some symptoms of a team more concerned about defense than offense, perhaps.

AVB's 'perfect result' is 2-0. We take our foot off the pedal when we get a second and start conserving energy for the next match. We don't score dead rubber goals, but hopefully this approach will pay dividends when we are fresher in the business end of the season.

I've seen posts asking for counter-attack football, Spurs can't do that for one reason, it requires opponents to attack us first. All I've seen is a desire to camp 10 players within 10 yards of their own box and stop us playing. This in turn leads to us playing the slow build up football everyone is complaining about.

Winning is about showing character to to fight it out to the end, two seasons ago a 0-0 with 10 minutes to go would've brought out an all out attack attitude and a 1-0 loss, this season we've fought to the bitter end and won games late on. I know which of the two options I prefer.

Agree - underdogs play counterattacking. In the last 15 months we've moved from underdogs to playing like contenders. For decades we've been talking about a need to find a 'winning mentality'. We're still dusting off a few snags, but here it is everyone.

What is going wrong up front???? We are not enough of a threat with a lone small striker and the stats back it up....

Defoe has scored 1 league goal in 2013 and Soldado has only scored 1 from open play. Both players are hardly ever on the ball.

We NEED Benteke.... Simple.

Benteke would be no good for a possession side. It's the same reason Ibrahimovich was such a mismatch for Barcelona.

For Benteke to work, we'd need to get rid of Sandro, Paulinho, Dembele and Capoue, and replace them with Huddlestone, Livermore and Jenas. Then Dawson's long balls and the pace of Lennon and Townsend would work a treat.

Or we could have a little bit of patience whilst we integrate Eriksen and Lamela and try and crack this whole playing like a title contender thing.

 

[NWND]

Maybe, i'm less concerned with Lamela not starting, but my problem is AVB seems overly willing to reward performances in the Europa league against pony opposition.

My case in point is rewarding Defoe with a start against West Ham, where all of his failings became apparent and we were starved of options up-front basically leading to the collapse that followed.

Soldado hasn't been necessarily firing in the goals this season, but his movement, link-up play and intelligence has been head-and-shoulders above Defoe, so he has led to improved performances attacking wise IMO.

Similarly, though, Holtby's suddenly getting starts in the PL on the back of performances in the Europa and at the expense of Eriksen who had dramatically improved the creativity and fluidity in the team in the few matches he'd been involved (West Ham excepted).

 

[ringo]

When you play one man up front, especially when that one man is a short, not that physically intimidating, in the box predator, it is too easy to mark them out of the game.
4-2-3-1 has the advantage of being defensively solid - as we have shown. But it also risks: allowing less good teams to shore up their defence and hit us on the break; and against better teams that play 4-3-3, conceding the attacking initiative.

For attacking purposes 4-2-3-1 relies on the full backs being attack minded and good at attacking, having players that move and pass quickly, to pull their defenders about making space for Soldado, having a #10 that can play between the lines, having DMs who can push forward and join the attack.

At the moment we don't have the LB option, and although Walker gets forward he could be more effective when he does.
We don't have the #10 -although Eriksen shows promise, and Lamela might be, who knows.
There is not enough movement, or width, or quick passing to pull the defenders around.
Of the DMs none look that comfortable getting forward, Paulinho looks OK going forward, but is bit sluggish, Dembele gets forward but slowly, and then usually passes backwards, Sandro seems best at ball winning and breaking up play.

So I'm not that surprised we struggle to score goals -or that Soldado struggles to score goals.
AVB must see all this too - I just wonder when and what he is going to do about it.

 

[Raziel]

Maybe, i'm less concerned with Lamela not starting, but my problem is AVB seems overly willing to reward performances in the Europa league against pony opposition.

My case in point is rewarding Defoe with a start against West Ham, where all of his failings became apparent and we were starved of options up-front basically leading to the collapse that followed.

Soldado hasn't been necessarily firing in the goals this season, but his movement, link-up play and intelligence has been head-and-shoulders above Defoe, so he has led to improved performances attacking wise IMO.

Similarly, though, Holtby's suddenly getting starts in the PL on the back of performances in the Europa and at the expense of Eriksen who had dramatically improved the creativity and fluidity in the team in the few matches he'd been involved (West Ham excepted).

It's a tough balance, players have to feel like they will be rewarded for playing well in lesser games.

The JD example was key, not only had he done well in Europe, but even AVB mentioned, he has a brilliant record against West Ham, so we played him.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I don't actually understand why Eriksen was dropped. He looked very promising in his first few games, but had one 'dodgy' one against West Ham, where he didn't necessarily have a bad game, just let it pass him by a bit (partly because WHam did a good job of starving him of the ball) and suddenly he's demoted?

Eriksen looks like he can make things happen most times he gets on the ball and i think like said above we should stick him in and keep him there. I also think Lamela should be given a run as again he looks like has something about him creativily and definately movement wise and how is he ever supposed to adapt to the PL if he never gets played in it?

Completely with you on that. Eriksen is classier player than Holtby who the fans love partly because of his excellent work rate. I like Holtby too, but Eriksen is the better footballer. I wasn't too disappointed to see Eriksen dropped last week because you do need to rotate the squad, but did Holbty really do enough against Villa to keep Eriksen on the bench again?

It begs the question when is Lamela actually going to be given a start in the league?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Maybe, i'm less concerned with Lamela not starting, but my problem is AVB seems overly willing to reward performances in the Europa league against pony opposition.

My case in point is rewarding Defoe with a start against West Ham, where all of his failings became apparent and we were starved of options up-front basically leading to the collapse that followed.

Soldado hasn't been necessarily firing in the goals this season, but his movement, link-up play and intelligence has been head-and-shoulders above Defoe, so he has led to improved performances attacking wise IMO.

Similarly, though, Holtby's suddenly getting starts in the PL on the back of performances in the Europa and at the expense of Eriksen who had dramatically improved the creativity and fluidity in the team in the few matches he'd been involved (West Ham excepted).

AVB is under the impression that the Europa League is a prestigious competition, it isn't. Maybe it is in the latter stages, but in the group stages it's filled with pony teams that nobody has ever heard of. I remember him saying last season that the Spurs-Lyon game was a "Champions League calibre game". Don't you have to be in the competition or at least be at the top of your league for that to be the case? Sheriff did a good job against us last Thursday, they created 4 or 5 excellent chances, so even against a poor side who were up our end quite a bit in the first half, we still couldn't hit them on the break or create many chances of our own.

I didn't agree with the decision to start Defoe against West Ham, but I could see the logic as he does have a good record against his old club.

 

[totalspurs]

For the Hull game I would try playing Lamela up front next to Soldado. As well as only one defensive Midfielder playing alongside two more attacking minded players. I also feel both holtby and Eriksson should play together.

Someing like this:

Lloris
Walker Chiraces Vertongon Naughton
Holtby Sandro siggsson
Eriksson
Lemela Soldado

I think this is a very footballing side with players who are all comfortable on the ball. (Part from Walker and Sandro).

 

[KMYONG]

While a physical 1 man upfront is ideal, Fabregas in the same position isn't that kind as far as the Barca-Real game is concerned. Why can't Soldado start moving around where the opposition are parking the bus in their half ? Does the 4-3-3 system really call for a winger ( whether traditional or inverted or whatever one wanna call it ) ? I watch the Barca-Real game and observe how Neymar operates. He cuts back most of the time, passes the ball quick back to others and quickly switch to the right where Messi is running in and cutting across to shoot. And if he can't, pass back to the centre and goes to Neymar again until they find an opening. The centre midfield ( eg Ineista ) can quickly put long passes and wide players are already beating the defence line to get to the ball already. Do we need a No. 10 to put such passes ?

Did AVB uses traditional winger at FC Porto ? or are they just wide forward who moving around their flank to centre ? my thinking is that if we use traditional winger , then put them where their better foot is or even Defoe can play on the left forward position. ( we have seen Defoe done so many times taking the ball from the left and score when he get to the centre ) ...

 

[camspur]

Benteke's hold up play along the floor would be good, he can hold up the play along the floor like Berbatov. He's not just a knockdown merchant. Right now we are playing the ball to Soldado and it is going straight back downfield. Benteke gives us an option of laying it off or spinning his marker and going for goal. It allows for more variation in our play.

Why do you think Benteke will be afforded the space and time that our other strikers haven't been. He will find himself crowded out just as much as Soldado does.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Maybe, i'm less concerned with Lamela not starting, but my problem is AVB seems overly willing to reward performances in the Europa league against pony opposition.

My case in point is rewarding Defoe with a start against West Ham, where all of his failings became apparent and we were starved of options up-front basically leading to the collapse that followed.

Soldado hasn't been necessarily firing in the goals this season, but his movement, link-up play and intelligence has been head-and-shoulders above Defoe, so he has led to improved performances attacking wise IMO.

Similarly, though, Holtby's suddenly getting starts in the PL on the back of performances in the Europa and at the expense of Eriksen who had dramatically improved the creativity and fluidity in the team in the few matches he'd been involved (West Ham excepted).

I have absolutely no issue with a transparent selection process like that (compared to the cliquism/reputation over form selection that undermines many managers). You need rotation anyway, but keeping the entire squad motivated is by far the bigger battle. Again, it's part of learning to be a big club. Ferguson managed this excellently for decades. You just don't play your 'cup final' side every week.

When you play one man up front, especially when that one man is a short, not that physically intimidating, in the box predator, it is too easy to mark them out of the game.
4-2-3-1 has the advantage of being defensively solid - as we have shown. But it also risks: allowing less good teams to shore up their defence and hit us on the break; and against better teams that play 4-3-3, conceding the attacking initiative.

For attacking purposes 4-2-3-1 relies on the full backs being attack minded and good at attacking, having players that move and pass quickly, to pull their defenders about making space for Soldado, having a #10 that can play between the lines, having DMs who can push forward and join the attack.

At the moment we don't have the LB option, and although Walker gets forward he could be more effective when he does.
We don't have the #10 -although Eriksen shows promise, and Lamela might be, who knows.
There is not enough movement, or width, or quick passing to pull the defenders around.
Of the DMs none look that comfortable getting forward, Paulinho looks OK going forward, but is bit sluggish, Dembele gets forward but slowly, and then usually passes backwards, Sandro seems best at ball winning and breaking up play.

So I'm not that surprised we struggle to score goals -or that Soldado struggles to score goals.
AVB must see all this too - I just wonder when and what he is going to do about it.

I still think AVB intends to go 4-3-3 as his primary formation. IMO its allowing Eriksen and Lamela to settle and the issues at LB that are delaying it at the moment. Before long I expect to see something like:

---Eriksen----Soldado---Lamela

----------------Paulinho
-------Sandro----------Capoue/Dembele

 

[totalspurs]

The problem is we are playing 4-2-3-1 at home....the 3 are play in an attacking midfield role either wide or centre. So effectively we are playing 1 up front and 5 in midfield.

We should be playing 2-4-1-3 (bear with me).... The front three should be really getting in the box against the oppositions centrebacks. (we just dont have enough bodies in the box).

 

[Modric THFC]

As Diego said a few pages back "I don't think there is a genuine belief that we are going to score with every attack."

I think there's isnt a belief from our players that their teammate is gonna pass to them in a good position high up the pitch.

I think the whole thing stems from playing too many players who dwell on the ball or run with.
If you're Soldado you're gonna be waiting all day before Townsend or Lennon pass the ball (the best they will do is knock it vaguely into an area), Sandro and Dembele are never gonna pass the ball forward.
There's only so many times you're gonna make those runs pointlessly before you get ****ed off and stop trying.

We seen the likes of Holtby and Siggy who used to make great runs off the ball all the time not bother anymore.
Lamela compalins everytime he plays now that no ones passing him the ball.


Its all good to believe unyieldingly AVB has some masterplan but at least base it on some evidence.