I am constantly amazed with how under-rated Eriksen is, not only by the media but also by some Spurs supporters. I believe that the importance of an individual player becomes most apparent when he is not playing and this season, in the cup matches where we have started without Eriksen, it has become blindingly obvious that he is the key player who makes my pants sticky and links the midfield together. In my view he is possibly our most important player, particularly in the long-term absence of Lamela, so can't see why we would upgrade
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Transfer speculation
- Thread starter Cochise
- Start date
I am constantly amazed with how under-rated Eriksen is, not only by the media but also by some Spurs supporters. I believe that the importance of an individual player becomes most apparent when he is not playing and this season, in the cup matches where we have started without Eriksen, it has become blindingly obvious that he is the key player who makes my pants sticky and links the midfield together. In my view he is possibly our most important player, particularly in the long-term absence of Lamela, so can't see why we would upgrade
parklane1
Vic Buckingham
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
I can't leave this one alone. Traore has shown enough in the games he's played for a number of teams to take a punt on him. Carrying the ball he's better than Hazard. That's no exaggeration. He is better than Hazard running with the ball. I don't think many could ague against that. He can terrorise full backs and get around them almost at will. Get him 1-1 with a relatively fast full back - say Monreal at the scum who he skinned a number of times - and he'll beat him, running around them with the ball.
Obviously if the rest of his game was fine, he'd still be at Barca or another top team. The rest of his game is not fine. As well as skinning Monreal he lost the ball to Ozil who then got the scums winning goal. The other problem is Traore beats a man, then does nothing with the opening. But...
He's just turned 21.
He's played in a brick boro team and a brick villa team.
He hasn't had a coach like Pochettino who'd use his physicality and speed to good effect, while developing the rest of his game.
If he slows down, and develops his passing and shooting, he'll become a massively potent player imo. Why slows down? Watch Hazard, he dribbles with the ball at 80-90% - he can carry the ball faster, but only maxes out if someone tries to tackle him and needs that turbo boost to get away. The greater control Hazard has dribbling at 80-90% of his top speed allows him to assess his options and play the right ball or take a shot. Not that Hazard was the player he is now at 21. Lennon also become more effective when he slowed up before playing the ball, something HR maybe initiated?
Traore at 21 gets the ball, and murders players, he's like a jack in the box, flies past them in a blur...so fast he can't keep up with himself. He was at Barca from age 8, he has terrific skill, only Zaha, Hazard and our Dembele get close to his successful dribbles stats (in that order and Traore is #1). Yes they do more with the ball but that can be developed. As a cheaper and more explosive alternative to Zaha, I'd love to see what Poch could draw out of Traore.
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DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
He has absolutely no footballing brain. He might be Socrates off the pitch, and good for him if he is, but he's so unbelievably lacking in even the barest tactical essentials while on it that it baffles me why we'd ever want someone like that. I watched him against City, and the number of times his own left-back screamed at him in frustration because he lost the ball and then wandered sloooowly back to the box while City were breaking with speed against a backpedalling Boro defense...
...no, we do not need Adama Traore. He cannot defend to save his life, cannot pass ten centimetres, and has no idea of what to do with our without the ball. He can beat players for fun, true, but if we were going down that route I don't see why we couldn't just buy Adel Taarabt again (or maybe Ricardo Quaresma or somebody similar) since he can do that too. Traore's youth means nothing if he's not willing to track back and use that youthful energy to help the team out - his skills mean nothing if they're not matched with at least some semblance of footballing intelligence.
He could well develop into a world-beater one day (although I sincerely doubt his decision-making will ever be *consistently* good - at best, he'll perhaps be a chaotic nightmare for defenders but also one prone to making the wrong decisions more than most). However, I'd much prefer someone else goes through the effort of teaching the guy how to track back, what to do with the ball, how and when to pass, etcetera, etcetera. We can pick him up later if he turns out to have improved on those facets of his game. As it stands, he'd take up a squad space we could use for a more well-rounded player.
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
What is a "footballing brain" by the way?
To me he has a lack of experience, and needs the right coach. Do you think Poch would let him not track back? Do you think you need some kind of special brain to track back? Is that what a footballing brain gives you? Your coach tells you what is expected of you and makes you practice until you're good at it. Or are you saying Traore has brain damage and can't learn, I don't know what you mean.
Taarabt had skill but not the physical strength and power of this kid. He's played in brick teams, yes there are issues otherwise the best dribbler in the league would be at a better club and out of our reach, but at 21, see past the slips that give the ball away and his positional nativity...see the potential to tidy that up and the chances he can create. Few have that ability, he may not go on to use it, but if anyone can harness it, with improved discipline, practice and structure, Pochettino can.
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Bullet
Luka Modric
An appreciation of the situation, your colleagues, your opponents, what might happen next etc.
This allows you to roll the ball 10 yards to your right, and your colleague taps it in.
Whereas Traore would beat 2 men, run off the pitch, chip it over the hoardings and go haring up the steps towards the second tier, only stopping when he is sat on the burger vendor's hot plate
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
Well put, and its true. See my post on slowing down. The kid needs two things, a strong coach who has a vision for him and can help him get there, and confidence.
You can develop greater awareness, especially if he slows down.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Why does Dele pop up in the right positions all the time? Why does he instinctively show up in the perfect positions when the ball's bouncing around in the box? Why does he make the right pass, the right lay-off, the right run into the box, far more often than he makes an errant pass or run?
He's only 21 too - in fact, he's four months younger than Adama is. He arguably has less experience at the top level than Adama does - while Adama was playing in the Champions League for Barca, Dele was turning out for MK Dons' U-18 sides. While Adama was being instructed by the best coaches in the world at La Masia, Dele was imbibing his footballing education from some blokes from Milton Keynes. It's only in the last couple of years that Dele's had more playing time at a higher level than Adama. Yet, right from the off, he made the right decisions and got into the right positions far more than the reverse - while Adama's struggled at both Villa and Boro, both far worse sides playing at far lower levels and against opponents who don't pay nearly as much attention to their players as our opponents do to ours.
Yes, I think there is a special sort of brain that footballers have - it's the ability to see plays before they happen, anticipate where the ball's going to be, when the opposition is going to break on you, where to press, when to tackle, when to defend, when to counter. It's more of a natural instinct than it is a coached talent - Kane said as much when he was interviewed by Henry a few weeks ago. It can be coached to an *extent* - and it can be developed with lots and lots of practice. But it's unique to a footballer - it is, in essence, a 'footballing brain' you need to have to succeed at the top levels of the game.
It has nothing to do with real-world intelligence, and I mentioned as much. I don't know if Adama Traore reads Nietzsche or pores over the latest developments in string theory in his spare time - if he does, good for him. But on the field, he has shown nothing to indicate that he understands when to press and when to stand off, when to track back to help your teammates and when to stay up the field looking for counterattacking opportunities, when to pass and when not to dribble endlessly into cul-de-sacs, when to go for a simple ball as opposed to a run that leads nowhere or a pass that leads to a chance for the opposition instead.
Like I said, it can certainly be coached to an extent - players who have had to train extremely hard and play a lot to gain the sort of instinctual understanding of the game that Alli has (for example) won't ever get quite as good at anticipating where the ball will go and what needs to be done in a game at any given point, but they can comfortably reach levels that will allow them to not look out of place at the top end of football. Certainly, Adama can also do that.
But why does that have to be our job?
Adama Traore is 21, older than Dele and clearly lacking in footballing intelligence. His upside is his tremendous skill and power on the ball - his downside is a total inability to do anything with it, or to help out his team when he doesn't have the ball. He lacks an understanding of the game that many players develop at 17-18 - thus, he's a few years behind in his development, imo. And we are not a club that needs to take a gamble on getting him and filling up a squad space while hoping that Poch can get him passing the ball accurately over three yards, pressing (or even doing any defensive work whatsoever) when not on the ball, making runs at the right time, positioning himself in the right areas, etcetera, etcetera. Poch will basically have to do to him what Mourinho's been doing to Shaw (as per his own account) - 'his legs, my brain'. And hope that he can make up for a past inability to learn the tactical and structural basics of the game while this goes on.
To me, all he offers in return is an ability to dribble really well (but often into cul-de-sacs or useless areas) and good physical strength + pace. Not quite worth the effort of training him up in the very basics of the game for as long as it takes for him to get used to the idea of doing more than just dribbling a lot.
I'm definitely not opposed to the idea of buying him *eventually*, should he develop elsewhere into a more consistent, more aware, more rounded player - if he develops and shows that he has a good season in him, then by all means, snap him up then and teach him what he's still missing at that point. Hell, if he *just* develops a pressing ethic and an ability to pass to his own teammates on a consistent basis, that would be good enough for me to consider him a useful buy that we could further coach into a really good player. But at the moment, we're not quite desperate enough to take the plunge on Adama as the cheaper option, imo - he lacks even the pressing ethic and basic passing skills I mentioned above, we will have access to better, more rounded players, and we shouldn't really be looking to fill up our ranks with players who will need extensive coaching to the level that Adama would.
Edit: *Especially* when we could impart the same skills to Onomah, Edwards, Oakley-Boothe, Sterling and so on - players from our academy, brought up at our club, who have need of the same coaching and who wouldn't cost us anything. I figure missing out on a bit of dribbling skill in exchange for spending the same time teaching our own young ones the same basics we'll have to teach Traore is a good tradeoff.
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Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
It's not about playing for good/bad teams, it is about taking the right option.... at least SOME of the time. We had a similar player at the club already in Oduwa... incredible skill but a long, long way from being a good player. The problem is that in our situation we cannot give a player like Traore the minutes to have a chance to develop (which I would say he has no more than a 50% chance of doing).
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
@DubaiSpur, I won't quote that 
1) If Trarore is half the player Dele Alli is, shouldn't we sign him? How much would Alli cost to sign? How much would Trarore cost?
2) Playing in relegation sides is not a help to a young players chances! Think you've got that in reverse. Playing with quality players around you in a steady successful team will be far more conducive to success. Would Alli have done as well playing at boro or villa for example? So comparing Trarore to Alli tells us little apart from they are different.
3) Are you saying you can't learn when to press, when to track back, when to stand off etc? Sure some have a skill for finding space and anticipating, but you make out its something deeply gifted that you can't learn. I would say, break it down, observe, practice, and you can develop. Some things come naturally other things you have to work on. I don't believe there is a 'footballers brain'. Just levels of coaching, and the individuals desire to succeed.
4) Why should it be Spurs job to develop Trarore? What an odd question. It isn't. If the powers that be see something, then for a low outlay we could buy the best dribbler in the league. Then it would be Spurs' job to develop him, and he needs it. But name me another club that would be better for his development, that could help him realise his clear skill and deploy his physical attributes?
5) Gamble and Shaw. Trarore's low standing means he wouldn't cost much, and his age means there is no real gamble. Funny you should mention Shaw. Who did Shaw look best playing under? Who took Shaw and spent a lot of time getting him ready for first team football, where he excelled? A good comparison imo.
We can't buy Hazard, or even Willian. We can buy Sissoko, or at a push Zaha if we commit massive funds. What Spurs have done time and again is take the Bale's etc. the players with potential, and you can't tell me this kid doesn't have potential? Now you may argue that on balance Trarore wouldn't cut the scouts mustard, his lack of awareness and obvious weaknesses would preclude him. But I hope not, as with little outlay, I think Poch could make him into a player. It might take a couple of years, but he would be an effective sub in the mean time.
1) If Trarore is half the player Dele Alli is, shouldn't we sign him? How much would Alli cost to sign? How much would Trarore cost?
2) Playing in relegation sides is not a help to a young players chances! Think you've got that in reverse. Playing with quality players around you in a steady successful team will be far more conducive to success. Would Alli have done as well playing at boro or villa for example? So comparing Trarore to Alli tells us little apart from they are different.
3) Are you saying you can't learn when to press, when to track back, when to stand off etc? Sure some have a skill for finding space and anticipating, but you make out its something deeply gifted that you can't learn. I would say, break it down, observe, practice, and you can develop. Some things come naturally other things you have to work on. I don't believe there is a 'footballers brain'. Just levels of coaching, and the individuals desire to succeed.
4) Why should it be Spurs job to develop Trarore? What an odd question. It isn't. If the powers that be see something, then for a low outlay we could buy the best dribbler in the league. Then it would be Spurs' job to develop him, and he needs it. But name me another club that would be better for his development, that could help him realise his clear skill and deploy his physical attributes?
5) Gamble and Shaw. Trarore's low standing means he wouldn't cost much, and his age means there is no real gamble. Funny you should mention Shaw. Who did Shaw look best playing under? Who took Shaw and spent a lot of time getting him ready for first team football, where he excelled? A good comparison imo.
We can't buy Hazard, or even Willian. We can buy Sissoko, or at a push Zaha if we commit massive funds. What Spurs have done time and again is take the Bale's etc. the players with potential, and you can't tell me this kid doesn't have potential? Now you may argue that on balance Trarore wouldn't cut the scouts mustard, his lack of awareness and obvious weaknesses would preclude him. But I hope not, as with little outlay, I think Poch could make him into a player. It might take a couple of years, but he would be an effective sub in the mean time.
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Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
See above. Bale's potential was high because he made the right decisions when in possession of the football on most occasions, Traore doesn't. If you have zero final product at 21 then it is more likely than not that you will fail to become a top player.@DubaiSpur, I won't quote that
1) If Trarore is half the player Dele Alli is, shouldn't we sign him? How much would Alli cost to sign? How much would Trarore cost?
2) Playing in relegation sides is not a help to a young players chances! Think you've got that in reverse. Playing with quality players around you in a steady successful team will be far more conducive to success. Would Alli have done as well playing at boro or villa for example? So comparing Trarore to Alli tells us little apart from they are different.
3) Are you saying you can't learn when to press, when to track back, when to stand off etc? Sure some have a skill for finding space and anticipating, but you make out its something deeply gifted that you can't learn. I would say, break it down, observe, practice, and you can develop. Some things come naturally other things you have to work on. I don't believe there is a 'footballers brain'. Just levels of coaching, and the individuals desire to succeed.
4) Why should it be Spurs job to develop Trarore? What an odd question. It isn't. If the powers that be see something, then for a low outlay we could buy the best dribbler in the league. Then it would be Spurs' job to develop him, and he needs it. But name me another club that would be better for his development, that could help him realise his clear skill and deploy his physical attributes?
5) Gamble and Shaw. Trarore's low standing means he wouldn't cost much, and his age means there is no real gamble. Funny you should mention Shaw. Who did Shaw look best playing under? Who took Shaw and spent a lot of time getting him ready for first team football, where he excelled? A good comparison imo.
We can't buy Hazard, or even Willian. We can buy Sissoko, or at a push Zaha if we commit massive funds. What Spurs have done time and again is take the Bale's etc. the players with potential. Now you may argue that on balance Trarore wouldn't cut the scouts mustard, his lack of awareness and obvious weaknesses would preclude him. But I hope not, as with little outlay, I think Poch could make him into a player. It might take a couple of years, but he would be an effective sub in the mean time.
Pace is great, physicality is great, dribbling ability is great.... no end product outweighs all 3 though.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
@DubaiSpur, I won't quote that
Fair enough, mate.
Alli cost 5m. If Traore is up for sale at 2.5m, I'd consider it, I suppose. And I think Traore probably is half the player Alli *was* when we signed him, so it's a fair price.
Alli did do well playing at MK Dons - my point was that Traore actually did play for a successful team and spent his entire teenage life at La Masia, the cathedral of youth football, while Alli was commuting to training at MK Dons, a franchise club in a concrete roundabout town. So, theoretically, he should at least have a better grasp of the basics than Alli does.
You can - you definitely cannot to the level of someone instinctively gifted in that regard (which is why players like Muller and Alli, Alonso and Modric, etcetera. are so rare - they stand out because of their instinctive understanding of the game, which can't be coached), but you could probably coach someone to press, pass, track back and get forward very well if you had a lot of time and a lot of opportunities for him/her to practise in a real-world setting. However, as I mentioned, there is definitely an element of talent involved that can't be taught.
Let me put it this way - buying Traore takes up a squad slot for a non-HG, non-club grown player. Why should Poch take the time to teach Traore the basics when he could be doing the same with Onomah, Edwards or Sterling (to whom we *do* have obligations, by dint of their status as local lads and club-grown players)? Is his dribbling and pace alone worth the effort it would take to coach him versus what it would take to coach, say Edwards?
As I said, if Traore costs 2.5m (half of Alli's price), I'd consider it. Otherwise, no point, imo. As for Shaw, he is *now* about the same age as Traore - but when Poch had him, he was 17 going on 18. It isn't a good comparison at all, because Poch took a 17/18-year-old (free) home-grown, club-grown youth player already well-versed in the footballing basics (how and when to pass, how and when to get forward or track back, etcetera) and made him look superb. Here, we would be *paying* for Traore, an older player without any of the squad benefits associated with playing a youth player, and we would have to teach him everything we'd basically have to teach Onomah, Edwards or Oakley-Boothe anyway. And, again, it doesn't seem worth it.
Traore is 21. Alli was 17 when we bought him. Bale was 17 when we bought him. 21 is certainly still extremely young both in football and in life more broadly, but comparing him to Bale and Alli is unfair on him and on those two. As for not being able to buy Willian, we were minutes from getting him, and were a Bayern penalty away from getting Hazard - not the best examples of the type of player we 'can't' get, mate.
Point is, we can get players of that kind, and they are usually more developed than Traore is - they know how to pass more than three yards and how to track back, at the very least, which saves time in terms of coaching. Time that could then be devoted to honing other aspects of their game.
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
Is Trarore going to be as good as Bale or Alii. Just law of averages suggests that's unlikely.
If Trarore looked like he was going to be as good as Bale, Barca wouldn't have let him go, we wouldn't be able to buy him etc etc. Yet Bale didn't look like a world beater straight away, he had raw ability and worked hard. Trarore is 'rawer' granted, but has ability. Can you see past his flaws? And are those flaws too great to succeed? Those are the more tantalising questions imo.
With Poch I would back Trarore to become a better player. Hardly a controversial statement!
If Trarore looked like he was going to be as good as Bale, Barca wouldn't have let him go, we wouldn't be able to buy him etc etc. Yet Bale didn't look like a world beater straight away, he had raw ability and worked hard. Trarore is 'rawer'
granted, but has ability. Can you see past his flaws? And are those flaws too great to succeed? Those are the more tantalising questions imo.With Poch I would back Trarore to become a better player. Hardly a controversial statement!
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Gazza
Nick Barmby
He was coached at Barca with some of the best youth coaches around ... he still cant pass the ball. All people have mentioned is his pace and ability to beat a man and then lose it.
He will never play under poch. Pure fantasy poch will get the most of him. If he can't understand that he needs to pass for the benefit of the team he won't make it. Can he even pass? I've only seen him run into blind alleys.
He would frustrate the fudge out of us. Slow the system down just due to his pace. We have a similar player in our youth valued Edwards.... rather we develop him into a pro.
He will never play under poch. Pure fantasy poch will get the most of him. If he can't understand that he needs to pass for the benefit of the team he won't make it. Can he even pass? I've only seen him run into blind alleys.
He would frustrate the fudge out of us. Slow the system down just due to his pace. We have a similar player in our youth valued Edwards.... rather we develop him into a pro.
Gazza
Nick Barmby
I understand your thinking but adama traore will just be a waste of money. I'm sure we have players in the academy that have a better understanding of the game.
We made a mistake wasting money on sissoko let's not waste any more money on players that won't make it here. Rather spend the money on players that look like they have real potential, not just a head down speed merchent.
If he had no pace what other attributes as a player does he have?
Bullet
Luka Modric
Not people; one person.
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
Let's put it another way, can you name a player who can dribble with the ball as well as or better than Traore that we could sign? Poch wanted someone like Mane who could "punch through" teams, hence singing Sissoko.
I like Zaha he is ready to play first team football, but he will cost a fortune and will go to Africa every 2 years. While everyone is looking the other way, there is an opportunity to find value. Provided you think the kid has it in him to settle and develop. I guess you simply don't think he can, and I believe that with Poch he would, and the financial risk is negligible.
According to the International Centre for Sports Studies (CIES), the 21-year-old Spanish winger is the best player in Europe - when it comes dribbling.
By dividing the number of dribbles attempted by the percentage of successful ones the CIES has come up with a list of the top 100 dribblers in Europe's top five leagues.
Traore tops the rankings ahead of Chelsea's Eden Hazard, while Barcelona forward Messi comes in sixth, just behind Crystal Palace winger Wilfried Zaha. Barcelona forward Neymar is fourth - but Real Madrid's Ronaldo doesn't even make the list.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39695746
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