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*** Tottenham vs Arsenal NLD OMT ***

thfcsteff said:
I think we have to accept that we are approaching a crossroads with regards to direction, and this is a very important moment to establish where we're going. We have a major Harry Kane question to answer, because if he does not sign a new contract, that decision is upon us. Sell or let him wind down his contract. And that decision rests on who the manager is. And that question rests on the direction we choose (Conte committing being a choice). And if we choose a project manager, whether we are only three players off or not, I cannot see Kane wanting to stay. Sonny appears to be entering a stage in his career where he can only function in one system to his best efficiency (not 3-4-3!), so again, the manager and direction is vital. The sub-question to everything right now is surely whether we would accept 80 million and a burst of sharp pain in letting one of our greatest ever players, and a man who is the heartbeat of all we do right now, in exchange for building for the next 5 - 7 years? Is there a manager who can do both? Would Poch be enough to keep Harry happy and hungry now? Or is Levy going to swap one hard man (Conte) for a Tuchel, which IMO would be disastrous. So many questions.
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I think Kane comes down to the/his options, ~£100M in summer to United/Saudi Sportswashing Machine, neither of which can guarantee him a trophy, if he doesn't go this summer, his age really becomes an issue. If he wants to go, and if someone is willing to pay (anything sub £75M we might as well keep him another season), I think we can let him go.

Richarlison, Deki, Gil, Bentancur, Bissouma, Skipp, Sarr, Romero are 9 good players for a few more years
Son, Perisic you could get 2 more years out of probably
Dier, Davies, PEH give you decent squad options for another 2-3 years

Thats 12 players

Royal and Reguilon could be options if we go back to FBs
Spence, Udogie are promising youth talents

So 16 players

- Ndombele, Lo Celso, Winks, Sanchez, Rodon, Tanganga, Doherty, Lucas all to come off the books (I'd add Sess, but some would disagree), so 9+ out

You need to add

- GK, CB, CM, ST (if Kane goes)

That would get you to 21 players with a pretty fresh start.

I don't want Tuchel, don't want Poch, I'd prefer we really go brave with someone like Marcelo Gallardo
 
Raziel said:
I think Kane comes down to the/his options, ~£100M in summer to United/Saudi Sportswashing Machine, neither of which can guarantee him a trophy, if he doesn't go this summer, his age really becomes an issue. If he wants to go, and if someone is willing to pay (anything sub £75M we might as well keep him another season), I think we can let him go.

Richarlison, Deki, Gil, Bentancur, Bissouma, Skipp, Sarr, Romero are 9 good players for a few more years
Son, Perisic you could get 2 more years out of probably
Dier, Davies, PEH give you decent squad options for another 2-3 years

Thats 12 players

Royal and Reguilon could be options if we go back to FBs
Spence, Udogie are promising youth talents

So 16 players

- Ndombele, Lo Celso, Winks, Sanchez, Rodon, Tanganga, Doherty, Lucas all to come off the books (I'd add Sess, but some would disagree), so 9+ out

You need to add

- GK, CB, CM, ST (if Kane goes)

That would get you to 21 players with a pretty fresh start.

I don't want Tuchel, don't want Poch, I'd prefer we really go brave with someone like Marcelo Gallardo
Click to expand...
He would be very interesting and radical as an appointment
 
Raziel said:
I think Kane comes down to the/his options, ~£100M in summer to United/Saudi Sportswashing Machine, neither of which can guarantee him a trophy, if he doesn't go this summer, his age really becomes an issue. If he wants to go, and if someone is willing to pay (anything sub £75M we might as well keep him another season), I think we can let him go.

Richarlison, Deki, Gil, Bentancur, Bissouma, Skipp, Sarr, Romero are 9 good players for a few more years
Son, Perisic you could get 2 more years out of probably
Dier, Davies, PEH give you decent squad options for another 2-3 years

Thats 12 players

Royal and Reguilon could be options if we go back to FBs
Spence, Udogie are promising youth talents

So 16 players

- Ndombele, Lo Celso, Winks, Sanchez, Rodon, Tanganga, Doherty, Lucas all to come off the books (I'd add Sess, but some would disagree), so 9+ out

You need to add

- GK, CB, CM, ST (if Kane goes)

That would get you to 21 players with a pretty fresh start.

I don't want Tuchel, don't want Poch, I'd prefer we really go brave with someone like Marcelo Gallardo
Click to expand...

I pretty much agree with this. Kane will end up at Man U IMO. I think he’s had it TBH, and I cannot really blame him. I agree with squad overview. I would not be getting rid of Royal until we determine we are never playing a back four again.
 
thfcsteff said:
A really interesting counter-point, which I think is probably rooted in reality when it comes to fanbase.

The fact is, as long as the stadium is full they will be happy. The stadium will be full if we have a direction that the entire club is on the same page with. I think as a support base we might be a little easier deep down than we project (the goons complicate things). I hope upon hope that we pick a direction and go. I would like to see us either -
*get Conte's commitment and get the players he wants
*find a manager who aligns with Paratici/Levy philosophy.

Poch was that man. Whether he still can be remains a question mark. What are the relationships like? Could he work with Paratici? Who is Poch today? Can you ever go back and have it work? I genuinely don't know. I don't think Levy will go there UNLESS he feels it his only fast-track to popularity. That is not a plan. I want a cohesive plan personally. I don't think this split track will work with Conte TBH.

Again, a really interesting discussion and appreciate the perspective.
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If we go with Pochettino it has to be with Paratici or a similarly powerful DoF in place imo.

I still think it's too soon with Pochettino. But if Kane goes it may be the moment.

I think we're in a pretty good position and both sticking with Conte and changing can work. Much of it thanks to the good work done by Paratici and the investment we have seen in the team over the last couple of years.
 
thfcsteff said:
I think we have to accept that we are approaching a crossroads with regards to direction, and this is a very important moment to establish where we're going. We have a major Harry Kane question to answer, because if he does not sign a new contract, that decision is upon us. Sell or let him wind down his contract. And that decision rests on who the manager is. And that question rests on the direction we choose (Conte committing being a choice). And if we choose a project manager, whether we are only three players off or not, I cannot see Kane wanting to stay. Sonny appears to be entering a stage in his career where he can only function in one system to his best efficiency (not 3-4-3!), so again, the manager and direction is vital. The sub-question to everything right now is surely whether we would accept 80 million and a burst of sharp pain in letting one of our greatest ever players, and a man who is the heartbeat of all we do right now, in exchange for building for the next 5 - 7 years? Is there a manager who can do both? Would Poch be enough to keep Harry happy and hungry now? Or is Levy going to swap one hard man (Conte) for a Tuchel, which IMO would be disastrous. So many questions.
Click to expand...

I agree that we are at a crossroads.

I've thought for quite a while that getting a manager that prefers a high pressing style would be a bad idea as Kane and Son can't play like that now. But if both are coming towards the end of their careers here for different reasons that would change.

Building over time is good. But we have real quality in relatively young players in this team. Kulusevski, Romero and Bentancur in particular. We have other younger players that will hopefully step up. Keeping them happy here can't be done with a very long project approach. There has to be some short to mid term moves in the right direction imo.

I think that's possible.
 
This may end up being one of the dumbest things I've ever posted on this site when hindsight sets in some time from now. There's definitely a possibility that we're in decline under Conte and that this won't turn around.

I think quite a lot of positives can be taken from the Arsenal performance though.

We were under pressure in the first half we struggled, but we defended reasonably well. They didn't actually create a lot of clear cut chances. There was one, + the early one we gifted them by giving the ball away. A fumble goal and a long range goal.

Meanwhile we had Son through on goal. Kane's header. Some good positions for Sessegnon and others. They were better, but with regards to chances created not nearly as much better than us as it felt at the time imo.

Second half, in difficult circumstances we were equally better than them. Stopped their counter attacking well most of the time, created decent chances. Got into dangerous areas. We needed that one goal, it didn't come, but we created enough to get it.

This was up against the best team in the league so far this season. With us in somewhat of a crisis mode compounded by the early mistakes. With Lloris having a shocker, Son completely off form.

If we weed out a couple of the larger mistakes that's a decent performance imo.

Need to weed out those mistakes though. Unfortunately it feels like the only way to weed out the Lloris mistakes is an unlikely January goalkeeper signing. If he could find some consistency for the rest of the season we may be fine.

Son may regain his form, if not we have Richarlison back now.

I think there's something to really build on here.
 
braineclipse said:
This may end up being one of the dumbest things I've ever posted on this site when hindsight sets in some time from now. There's definitely a possibility that we're in decline under Conte and that this won't turn around.

I think quite a lot of positives can be taken from the Arsenal performance though.

We were under pressure in the first half we struggled, but we defended reasonably well. They didn't actually create a lot of clear cut chances. There was one, + the early one we gifted them by giving the ball away. A fumble goal and a long range goal.

Meanwhile we had Son through on goal. Kane's header. Some good positions for Sessegnon and others. They were better, but with regards to chances created not nearly as much better than us as it felt at the time imo.

Second half, in difficult circumstances we were equally better than them. Stopped their counter attacking well most of the time, created decent chances. Got into dangerous areas. We needed that one goal, it didn't come, but we created enough to get it.

This was up against the best team in the league so far this season. With us in somewhat of a crisis mode compounded by the early mistakes. With Lloris having a shocker, Son completely off form.

If we weed out a couple of the larger mistakes that's a decent performance imo.

Need to weed out those mistakes though. Unfortunately it feels like the only way to weed out the Lloris mistakes is an unlikely January goalkeeper signing. If he could find some consistency for the rest of the season we may be fine.

Son may regain his form, if not we have Richarlison back now.

I think there's something to really build on here.
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Not enough positivity on this board, even @thfcsteff has joined in the slating! The manager and players need our support when they are down, not when they're winning.
 
thfcsteff said:
The first goal IS horrendous. Sessegnon cannot let that ball come across. Having shown him onto his 'weak' side, how on earth does he then allow that ball to come across???? Hugo's mistake is beyond brick. Second goal? Dier? Nah. You're asking him to leave Nketiah to try and block, when it is Romero who is both best-placed and the 'spare' defender who can push out. Instead, he stands there. He has been sluggish for a while now, he needs to sharpen up because his personal ceiling is huge. Yes, Sarr got sucked in to trying to be the second man behind PEH, but what is Sess doing? He is caught upfield, I accept that, but isn't his primary job to play a little safer against Saka, and perhaps play 5 -7 yards deeper/come onto the play as it develops?
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First goal.... Saka goes inside pretty much every single time. Problem is that he has quick feet and once he took the outside it was going to be difficult for Sessegnon to stop the ball in. That being said a ball in from there with the number of defenders we had in the box was very unlikely to be a goal. Our keeper pretty much threw it into the net.

Second goal. Romero is the player who ends up coming out to half close down the player (badly). However I wanted Dier to get nearer to Odegaard earlier in that attack. Interestingly enough when Saka gets the ball he has quite an easy ball inside Lenglet into Nketiah to give him a one on one. At this point Dier is higher up the pitch than Nketiah and you can see Romero trying to get across to close the gap. Nketiah actually then makes a bit of a bad run towards Romero instead of looking for that ball inside Lenglet that would've been a key pass, this is when I would've liked Dier to get himself out to Odegaard, where he could hold him up, commit a foul or basically force Odegaard to either have to try to put a really hard ball in behind or go out to one of the wide players where there is less danger. If we have 3 CBs and the job of the central one isn't to come out and take care of a player in a central position, in space, bearing down on our penalty box then what is the point of having 3 CBs at all? (though that is a question I seem to ask myself every game)

Second goal, Sess got caught upfield as Lloris is going long and it looks me as though Conte's tactics are to get Sess high up the pitch to be able to receive the second ball off of Kane or perhaps even if their defender wins the first ball but can't direct their header. I think we should have an expectation that at least one of our wing backs gets himself forward in that situation (otherwise we really are just playing a deep back 5). Part of the problem here is that when Lloris goes long, our 2 wide CBs still tend to be split quite close to our goal line and our central CB is still on the edge of our penalty area. This gives an absolute chasm of space for the opposition to exploit if they win the first header and it happens to go to one of their midfielders. The tactics from Conte are really strange here, usually when a team who tend to play out from the keeper (as we do) choose to instead go long, the keeper will wait for his defenders to get themselves higher up the pitch so that there isn't that huge chasm of space for the opposition to exploit if they win the first ball. In saying that the whole thing looked worse because the one midfield player we did have in that chasm of space made a bad decision to go and press the ball, instead of seeing what was around him. That is inexperience and (perhaps) a lack of talking to him from those behind him, who should be able to see that chasm of space and the serious issue it is going to cause us.
 
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braineclipse said:
If we go with Pochettino it has to be with Paratici or a similarly powerful DoF in place imo.

I still think it's too soon with Pochettino. But if Kane goes it may be the moment.

I think we're in a pretty good position and both sticking with Conte and changing can work. Much of it thanks to the good work done by Paratici and the investment we have seen in the team over the last couple of years.
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I think Fabs doing a decent enough job and is in align with the clubs ideas and visions. People who believe the board and owners are going leave because some think we are a title challenging club are in the clouds, so really its about aligning the staff. Fab fits the mould and clearly has a good eye for the younger talent to develop, either Conte comes in line with that in more than just sound bites to the press or another manager comes in
 
Finney Is Back said:
First goal.... Saka goes inside pretty much every single time. Problem is that he has quick feet and once he took the outside it was going to be difficult for Sessegnon to stop the ball in. That being said a ball in from there with the number of defenders we had in the box was very unlikely to be a goal. Our keeper pretty much threw it into the net.

Second goal. Romero is the player who ends up coming out to half close down the player (badly). However I wanted Dier to get nearer to Odegaard earlier in that attack. Interestingly enough when Saka gets the ball he has quite an easy ball inside Lenglet into Nketiah to give him a one on one. At this point Dier is higher up the pitch than Nketiah and you can see Romero trying to get across to close the gap. Nketiah actually then makes a bit of a bad run towards Romero instead of looking for that ball inside Lenglet that would've been a key pass, this is when I would've liked Dier to get himself out to Odegaard, where he could hold him up, commit a foul or basically force Odegaard to either have to try to put a really hard ball in behind or go out to one of the wide players where there is less danger. If we have 3 CBs and the job of the central one isn't to come out and take care of a player in a central position, in space, bearing down on our penalty box then what is the point of having 3 CBs at all? (though that is a question I seem to ask myself every game)

Second goal, Sess got caught upfield as Lloris is going long and it looks me as though Conte's tactics are to get Sess high up the pitch to be able to receive the second ball off of Kane or perhaps even if their defender wins the first ball but can't direct their header. I think we should have an expectation that at least one of our wing backs gets himself forward in that situation (otherwise we really are just playing a deep back 5). Part of the problem here is that when Lloris goes long, our 2 wide CBs still tend to be split quite close to our goal line and our central CB is still on the edge of our penalty area. This gives an absolute chasm of space for the opposition to exploit if they win the first header and it happens to go to one of their midfielders. The tactics from Conte are really strange here, usually when a team who tend to play out from the keeper (as we do) choose to instead go long, the keeper will wait for his defenders to get themselves higher up the pitch so that there isn't that huge chasm of space for the opposition to exploit if they win the first ball. In saying that the whole thing looked worse because the one midfield player we did have in that chasm of space made a bad decision to go and press the ball, instead of seeing what was around him. That is inexperience and (perhaps) a lack of talking to him from those behind him, who should be able to see that chasm of space and the serious issue it is going to cause us.
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As always a fine, detailed response.

The first goal...yes, ultimately that cross (if Hugo doesn't put it in his own net) goes across goal and possibly out for a throw in. I still would've liked to see Sessegnon stop the cross from coming in at all. He had a chance, he simply didn't stretch to try.

I will have to watch the second goal again taking your perspective into account. Yes, the fact it all
comes from Lloris boot is important to note, as it does affect Sessegnon's position, I just think he is poor positionally and almost ball watches at times when a shift of, say, 5ft would make all the difference. I personally do not think he should be caught out there. I accept that PEH needs to get there if he's going and that Sarr should've held. I will look at the scenario you mapped out; regardless of what Nketiah should or shouldN't have done, as the passage unfolds, Dier cannot come out and Romero has to effectively charge the ball. Instead he steps forward and half turns. Of course, the other factor is you might hope your keeper can get to it; wasn't a rocket per se. Lots of issues with both goals. Perhaps the biggest is was going 2 against 3 in the middle without your 'A' pair. In the circumstances Sarr did really well, albeit (again) you're right to say be was naive on the second.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Sack money is cheap due to his contract
Kane decides what happens for him and IMO that will be this summer when he and the club agree he can leave to united or city and united will pay the most so he goes there and people say it’s like Sheringham
We do need desperately to get more players in but we can’t panic and buy players conte won’t play
We can get in Poch or Tuchel easily and both would want the job
I don’t think either though would want to work in our current DOF structure
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kane would go to Bayern, if they're still interested

i don't think poch or tuchel would be wise to come in, but hey, money and always the hope of creating a legacy - btw, ANOTHER chavs manager as a prospect ?? LOL
 
indospurs said:
kane would go to Bayern, if they're still interested

i don't think poch or tuchel would be wise to come in, but hey, money and always the hope of creating a legacy - btw, ANOTHER chavs manager as a prospect ?? LOL
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Kane has repeatedly said he's not interested in moving abroad (family)
He's also solely focused on Shearer's record.
 
indospurs said:
kane would go to Bayern, if they're still interested

i don't think poch or tuchel would be wise to come in, but hey, money and always the hope of creating a legacy - btw, ANOTHER chavs manager as a prospect ?? LOL
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I think Kane would do well in Germany and be glad he goes there instead of Man U.
I hope Tuchel comes in. We need a manic slavedriver to whip the players and team into a purposeful shape.
He does well with youth too and is highly committed.
Otherwise instead of Poch, Nagelsmann. Young pressing modern football. Would do better with Enic not clamouring for the right players all the time.
 
metalgear said:
I think Kane would do well in Germany and be glad he goes there instead of Man U.
I hope Tuchel comes in. We need a manic slavedriver to whip the players and team into a purposeful shape.
He does well with youth too and is highly committed.
Otherwise instead of Poch, Nagelsmann. Young pressing modern football. Would do better with Enic not clamouring for the right players all the time.
Click to expand...

Nagelsmann was who I desperately wanted us to appoint instead of Mourinho. I knew that Mourinho was a bad appointment from the off. Having joked at a Manchester United supporting mate whilst Mourinho was their manager about Mourinho. When we appointed him that was a big turning point for the club. Our ‘sliding doors’ moment. Fresh from top 4 finishes and a CL Final, had we appointed wisely we could have bounced back there but no. Oh well we’re stuck in this reality now.
 
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