*** Tottenham vs Arsenal NLD OMT ***

[Finney Is Back]

PEH was on Partey? He didn't even get a tackle on him and was on the wrong side to make the tackle. He should've dropped. Sarr was worse stepping up.
And no, Dier shouldn't have stepped out, he was covering the run of Nketiah. If Dier steps out Saka has a simple pass to Nketiah in the centre of the box.
Romero is the free man and should've stepped out instead of standing with his hands behind his back doing nothing.

Yes, PEH is on Partey.... as Arsenal's CB wins the header, Hojbjerg is 5 yards from Partey and is the right player to go and close Partey down. Sarr was still in our defensive half of the pitch and quite close to Odegaard but runs 15 yards straight up the pitch to try to close Partey down. If Sarr holds position (as he should've) then he can cover the middle, Saka is then running at Lenglet who can try to hold him up until Sessegnon can get himself back to help defend against him.

 

[DubSpur]

Yes, PEH is on Partey.... as Arsenal's CB wins the header, Hojbjerg is 5 yards from Partey and is the right player to go and close Partey down. Sarr was still in our defensive half of the pitch and quite close to Odegaard but runs 15 yards straight up the pitch to try to close Partey down. If Sarr holds position (as he should've) then he can cover the middle, Saka is then running at Lenglet who can try to hold him up until Sessegnon can get himself back to help defend against him.

PEH comes in from behind Partey and the balls away before he gets close to him, he was never in a position to close him down. He needs to realise that he can't get a tackle in and drop.
Yes, Sarr is more at fault but both should've dropped in to support the defense.

 

[Finney Is Back]

PEH comes in from behind Partey and the balls away before he gets close to him, he was never in a position to close him down. He needs to realise that he can't get a tackle in and drop.
Yes, Sarr is more at fault but both should've dropped in to support the defense.

No.... PEH is never in a position to be able to cover Odegaard's run. PEH getting himself close to Partey is the right thing for him to do, if he'd won that ball then we would've had a brilliant transition attack ourselves. Sarr, on the other hand, is absolutely in a position to be able to cover Odegaard's run or at least the passing lane into him. Sarr gambles and tries to get the ball off of Partey when that was never the right thing to do in that position. I think his inexperience told here. Hold position and cover the centre of the pitch seeing as you are the only midfield player still in our half of the pitch as Arsenal turnover the ball.

 

[DubSpur]

No.... PEH is never in a position to be able to cover Odegaard's run. PEH getting himself close to Partey is the right thing for him to do, if he'd won that ball then we would've had a brilliant transition attack ourselves. Sarr, on the other hand, is absolutely in a position to be able to cover Odegaard's run or at least the passing lane into him. Sarr gambles and tries to get the ball off of Partey when that was never the right thing to do in that position. I think his inexperience told here. Hold position and cover the centre of the pitch seeing as you are the only midfield player still in our half of the pitch as Arsenal turnover the ball.

It's not just about covering Odegaards run, he needs to get himself back in and help out. The break could've developed different and an extra body back covering could've made a difference.
Putting himself close to Partey so he could look at his pass which he is nowhere near stopping.
As I said Sarr is most at fault but PEH doesn't cover himself in glory either and it's a regular occurrence. He chases after a player with the ball, gets nowhere near and then trotting back happens way too often with him.

 

[Junior19]

The thought of Dier in a 2 man central defence again makes me shudder.

The difference between (e.g) Liverpool's 4-3-3 and our 3-4-3 is that the midfield player who drops in is better on the ball than Eric Dier, who has poor control and average to weak passing ability.

Oh, Dier should not be our passing outlet. That would not be to play to his strengths. And I agree that a permanent switch to a 2 man CB-system would in most circumstances mean the end of Eric Dier as a first choice. But as a response to the tactics employed by Arteta yesterday, it would have been a possibility. However, it would require a different midfield constellation, and a different strategy all together. Something we've not practiced. And thus cannot do.

For it was obvious that Arsenal and Arteta had read Contes playbook, and read it well. They know how he wants to play, they know what he will do if he is stifled, and they counter it. If you look at FMS' analysis of yesterdays game, they highlight quite a few of the problems.
Now, the major problem is not that they had read the playbook, but that they knew that the plan B, C and D were pretty much the same as Plan A, with a dusting of insignificant gibbedygoop. We're so locked in to Contes 3-4-3 and defensive mindset that even when we're on the front foot we're rather predictable and unexiting. If it weren't for Kulu at the moment I'd think we were some poor version of the 2017-2018 Chelsea. They in the end scored mere 1,6 goal pr game, we're currently at 1,9.

 

[braineclipse]

The game was no where near the "schooling" the media and some (rightfully frustrated) fans are making it out to be

A draw would have been realistic, slightly towards us if we didn't gift them an own goal (zero threat in that play) and allow a pass into the net from >20 yards out

Agreed.

They had an xG of 2.04. We had 1.71.

That's with Lloris handing them an early lead. Their best chance (I think) in the first half came with us giving them that chance. Again Lloris involved.

We were quite clearly better in the second half, with game conditions perfect for them. We didn't create enough perhaps, but we created as much as they did in the first half. Finishing wasn't even the difference, just goalkeeping.

This was a dreadful game, a dreadful result. And a bitterly disappointing way to lose a very important game. Giving it away early on. But it wasn't a schooling. It wasn't even that bad of a performance overall imo (first half quite poor, but mostly individual mistakes costing us. Second half quite good). But we cannot, must not, be in a position where we keep giving away soft goals. But most of that is not on Conte or his tactics.

 

[mephitis]

Pretty much nails it.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...tark-relief-by-arsenal?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

BIoody hell! That article is spot on......sadly.

 

[paxtonwolf]

[QUOTE="Raziel, post: 1642388, member: 197"]The game was no where near the "schooling" the media and some (rightfully frustrated) fans are making it out to be

A draw would have been realistic, slightly towards us if we didn't gift them an own goal (zero threat in that play) and allow a pass into the net from >20 yards out[/QUOTE]

Indeed. How Sky can say we were totally outplayed and then award the MOTM to their goalkeeper does not make sense

 

[Bedfordspurs]

[QUOTE="Raziel, post: 1642388, member: 197"]The game was no where near the "schooling" the media and some (rightfully frustrated) fans are making it out to be

A draw would have been realistic, slightly towards us if we didn't gift them an own goal (zero threat in that play) and allow a pass into the net from >20 yards out

Indeed. How Sky can say we were totally outplayed and then award the MOTM to their goalkeeper does not make sense[/QUOTE]
He made the most saves he has made all season

 

[thfcsteff]

I don't think bobbing around top 6 for a couple of years will be seen as acceptable by many in our fan base. We had a different starting point last time with Pochettino and he delivered fairly quickly on top 4. Two years of bobbing will see massive dissatisfaction imo.

I think our mixed strategy is fine. We're starting to see results from some of the more project like signings already in Gil and Sarr. Kulusevski and Bentancur shows that fairly young players with a "project future" can also do a great job fairly quickly as long as we get those signings right.

Sprinkle in some "here and now" signings and that can be a good mix. It doesn't have to be strictly one or the other.

But we probably need to get 2-3 more good here and now hits for the short term for this strategy to work with Conte.

If it doesn't work with Conte I think it's a fine strategy for the future. I don't think we have to go all long term project approach.

A really interesting counter-point, which I think is probably rooted in reality when it comes to fanbase.

The fact is, as long as the stadium is full they will be happy. The stadium will be full if we have a direction that the entire club is on the same page with. I think as a support base we might be a little easier deep down than we project (the goons complicate things). I hope upon hope that we pick a direction and go. I would like to see us either -
*get Conte's commitment and get the players he wants
*find a manager who aligns with Paratici/Levy philosophy.

Poch was that man. Whether he still can be remains a question mark. What are the relationships like? Could he work with Paratici? Who is Poch today? Can you ever go back and have it work? I genuinely don't know. I don't think Levy will go there UNLESS he feels it his only fast-track to popularity. That is not a plan. I want a cohesive plan personally. I don't think this split track will work with Conte TBH.

Again, a really interesting discussion and appreciate the perspective.

 

[thfcsteff]

Easy to attack our left if you overload it
Son drifts around rather than closing down anyone and that leaves two men to pass and move against our left back

It is why I think the manager bottled it formation-wise yesterday especially. 3-5-2 was the way, with Sonny closer to Kane and most certainly not having to take on the style of play/responsibilities that role requires. I think it is actually cruel on Sonny, as yesterday he spent most of the game with his back to goal. This is simply not his game.

 

[Grays_1890]

It's not just about covering Odegaards run, he needs to get himself back in and help out. The break could've developed different and an extra body back covering could've made a difference.

Putting himself close to Partey so he could look at his pass which he is nowhere near stopping.

As I said Sarr is most at fault but PEH doesn't cover himself in glory either and it's a regular occurrence. He chases after a player with the ball, gets nowhere near and then trotting back happens way too often with him.

It happens too often, and although they were overloaded in midfield, which is why the debate on who takes who, PEH done what he always does, makes it easy to get past him and his line and then ambles back like he carrying a wardrobe

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It is why I think the manager bottled it formation-wise yesterday especially. 3-5-2 was the way, with Sonny closer to Kane and most certainly not having to take on the style of play/responsibilities that role requires. I think it is actually cruel on Sonny, as yesterday he spent most of the game with his back to goal. This is simply not his game.

Sonny would be lost whatever way we play right now
He needs space to clear his head

 

[thfcsteff]

But this is the crux, people are so easy to default to "the whole side is brick, we need a clear out"

You put a better keeper in, rotate Son to bench until he finds his form and get us a proper LWB and this game and season looks different.

I think we have to accept that we are approaching a crossroads with regards to direction, and this is a very important moment to establish where we're going. We have a major Harry Kane question to answer, because if he does not sign a new contract, that decision is upon us. Sell or let him wind down his contract. And that decision rests on who the manager is. And that question rests on the direction we choose (Conte committing being a choice). And if we choose a project manager, whether we are only three players off or not, I cannot see Kane wanting to stay. Sonny appears to be entering a stage in his career where he can only function in one system to his best efficiency (not 3-4-3!), so again, the manager and direction is vital. The sub-question to everything right now is surely whether we would accept 80 million and a burst of sharp pain in letting one of our greatest ever players, and a man who is the heartbeat of all we do right now, in exchange for building for the next 5 - 7 years? Is there a manager who can do both? Would Poch be enough to keep Harry happy and hungry now? Or is Levy going to swap one hard man (Conte) for a Tuchel, which IMO would be disastrous. So many questions.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A really interesting counter-point, which I think is probably rooted in reality when it comes to fanbase.

The fact is, as long as the stadium is full they will be happy. The stadium will be full if we have a direction that the entire club is on the same page with. I think as a support base we might be a little easier deep down than we project (the goons complicate things). I hope upon hope that we pick a direction and go. I would like to see us either -
*get Conte's commitment and get the players he wants
*find a manager who aligns with Paratici/Levy philosophy.

Poch was that man. Whether he still can be remains a question mark. What are the relationships like? Could he work with Paratici? Who is Poch today? Can you ever go back and have it work? I genuinely don't know. I don't think Levy will go there UNLESS he feels it his only fast-track to popularity. That is not a plan. I want a cohesive plan personally. I don't think this split track will work with Conte TBH.

Again, a really interesting discussion and appreciate the perspective.

Pochs biggest achievement was unity
That could be fixed by other managers but he is the only a manager I’ve ever seen do it here
Arteta has that at arsenal and it gives him and everyone else breathing space
Pochs biggest weakness was he didn’t change his ways and when he tried he couldn’t separate himself from his former role
Now he has had a break… it could work
But if it didn’t it could tarnish things
he is definitely being thought of within the club as a fall back for sure
He is sat there waiting and we know he would take it in a Heartbeat

 

[thfcsteff]

That first goal is horrendous.... What is the point in having 3 CBs if the left sided one isn't going to go out and help his wing back with the opposition's wide forward? Our wing backs should never get isolated one on one with us having 3 CBs, it is a massive failing. Lloris then does what Lloris does so often these days, throws a routine save for every other keeper in the PL into his own net.

Second goal.... We've got 3 CBs and all of them just run away from the ball. Absolutely no point in us having 3 CBs with none of them prepared to actually try to defend that situation. Also for the second goal, it is Sarr trying to press that causes the initial problem. Gives Arsenal an easy triangle to get the ball into their best attacking player in acres of space. Sarr needs to realise that Sessegnon has pushed ahead of Saka and Odegaard cannot be left in acres of space. Once Sarr had pressed and not won the ball we were then in trouble. At that point Dier needs to get out to Odegaard in the hope (though it should be 'know' by now if Conte's coaching is considered half decent) that Romero then comes narrower to stop the easy ball in behind.

The first goal IS horrendous. Sessegnon cannot let that ball come across. Having shown him onto his 'weak' side, how on earth does he then allow that ball to come across???? Hugo's mistake is beyond brick. Second goal? Dier? Nah. You're asking him to leave Nketiah to try and block, when it is Romero who is both best-placed and the 'spare' defender who can push out. Instead, he stands there. He has been sluggish for a while now, he needs to sharpen up because his personal ceiling is huge. Yes, Sarr got sucked in to trying to be the second man behind PEH, but what is Sess doing? He is caught upfield, I accept that, but isn't his primary job to play a little safer against Saka, and perhaps play 5 -7 yards deeper/come onto the play as it develops?

 

[DubSpur]

I think we have to accept that we are approaching a crossroads with regards to direction, and this is a very important moment to establish where we're going. We have a major Harry Kane question to answer, because if he does not sign a new contract, that decision is upon us. Sell or let him wind down his contract. And that decision rests on who the manager is. And that question rests on the direction we choose (Conte committing being a choice). And if we choose a project manager, whether we are only three players off or not, I cannot see Kane wanting to stay. Sonny appears to be entering a stage in his career where he can only function in one system to his best efficiency (not 3-4-3!), so again, the manager and direction is vital. The sub-question to everything right now is surely whether we would accept 80 million and a burst of sharp pain in letting one of our greatest ever players, and a man who is the heartbeat of all we do right now, in exchange for building for the next 5 - 7 years? Is there a manager who can do both? Would Poch be enough to keep Harry happy and hungry now? Or is Levy going to swap one hard man (Conte) for a Tuchel, which IMO would be disastrous. So many questions.

Why would it be a rebuild of 5-7 years if Kane leaves? We've had great players leave before e.g. Bale and Modric and it didn't take 5-7 years to rebuild.

 

[thfcsteff]

No.... PEH is never in a position to be able to cover Odegaard's run. PEH getting himself close to Partey is the right thing for him to do, if he'd won that ball then we would've had a brilliant transition attack ourselves. Sarr, on the other hand, is absolutely in a position to be able to cover Odegaard's run or at least the passing lane into him. Sarr gambles and tries to get the ball off of Partey when that was never the right thing to do in that position. I think his inexperience told here. Hold position and cover the centre of the pitch seeing as you are the only midfield player still in our half of the pitch as Arsenal turnover the ball.

Sarr generally has a fine match; this was a slip. I think given his inexperience, the likes of Romero and Sess should take a look at themselves here too. As for Hugo, is to too much to expect him to get to that? Of course, when we play that formation against theirs, that risk is always going to be greater due to the numbers.

 

[thfcsteff]

Why would it be a rebuild of 5-7 years if Kane leaves? We've had great players leave before e.g. Bale and Modric and it didn't take 5-7 years to rebuild.

I meant rebuilding a side to LAST for 5-7 years mate, not it taking 5-7 years

 

[SpurMeUp]

Need to hire this guy https://vk.com/wall-51126635_673610