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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

Raziel said:
Nonsense (as kindly as I can say it), the idea that a PL side is full of players who can't pass is simple hyperbole. Look at Wolves, potentially one of the worst PL sides in history, they have Doherty playing at CB for some games, do we think there squad is better, that they can pass but we can't?

The issue is the speed the game is played at in the PL you can't think about where to pass, it has to be drilled, there needs to be patterns, triangles, understanding of where your teammate is, who is making a run, where the space is (and that's what we don't see), next time Porro/Kudus makes a pass that looks like a brick pass into the box, don't default to "who the fudge he was passing to", ask yourself "is that an area someone should actually be"? next time Spence/Porro is trying to make a throw in and zero players are making themselves available/open, tell me again how that is technical ability? Either Frank can't get the message across, the players don't like his message or ?

And I know you will say it's because I have an agenda against Frank (I don't, I have an agenda to see my club do better), go look at the Liverpool game again, when down to 9 men, the players went off script (no orders) and somehow pinned back Liverpool, somehow on instinct the team looked better.

Again, could adding an elite player or two make a difference? yes, for every team, but he simply isn't getting the best out of this squad and passing that off as the entire team can't pass is OTT
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Are you or have you been a football manager? Genuine question, because you are extremely black and white about what is needed to be a successful manager? Even down to every coaching detail.

I would be very surprised if an elite coach who's managed for several years in the PL is not aware of everything you say about patterns of play. Especially someone who comes across as intelligent as Thomas Frank. Of course implementing those ideas is another matter.

I haven't managed in football, but have managed people for the last 20 years. I often say it would be easy to be a manager if all my staff were robots!
 
Raziel said:
Ange got €420.95m spent in 3 windows, if we maintained that for 6+ years it would not be far off the number Arteta got. We can argue about wages or recruitment but since Conte the club has been spending money (post stadium, post Covid). We may not spend like City/Chelsea but we are not that far off that comparisons don't matter. Still think you dodged the question
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exactly, the money Levy has spent in the years since Covid must be top 5 in world football or not far off? What we spend it on is the issue.
 
Finney Is Back said:
We were in 5th place in the league with 39 points after 20 games that season. He was doing superbly then.
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He picked up 26 from the first 10 so then 13 from the next 10. That's quite a drop off. But ok we were high up in the table. Despite the poor form nothing quite like the vitriol aimed at TF.
 
The Harry mentions are interesting as it relates to us then moving into an era of coaches that tended to go for more control, varied intensity, and more thoughtfulness around when the squad should peak in a season.

In 2012 we came 4th and it felt like we should have been at least 3rd but just completely ran out of steam. We then went to AVB who was high line but controlled possession for most of games. Before eventually landing at Poch whose teams actually started seasons more slowly but tended to be awesome winning machines down the stretch.

Someone made the point that the board may have looked at the injuries under Ange and decided that a coach who would prioritise rotations and a more balanced approach might be the way to go to ‘solve’ that problem. If that’s what happened, I’m not sure I agree with the rationale, but it would be interesting if there is a view within the game that with the craziness of the schedule, including summer tournaments now when there aren’t even international tournaments…maybe what constitutes ‘forward thinking’ now is someone who is going to do everything to maintain the condition of the players.

And maybe that’s how they land on Frank. Perhaps there is a view that high intensity football when competing in Europe, with all of the demands that players now have on them, simply doesn’t work. I’d be interested to see Ange’s counter to this argument.

Which is why overall I still think there’s a chance we see the fruits of Frank’s approach by the end of the year. I really wish we won the game yesterday, because we deserved it but also because he needs some vindication that his plan is working. At some point it doesn’t matter how well conditioned we are if we don’t win the games, so it needs to start happening pretty soon.

@Raziel I respect your posts a lot, and I see your point that data can go either way on whether offering a manager time is worth it or not. However I think the minimum, unless the manager is clearly utterly dreadful (like the guy Celtic just sacked) should be a full season, and then re-evaluate from there. Simply because I do think elite level managers put thought into where they want to peak in the course of a season. And I think @billyiddo is right that if we’re a few points off 7th, in a league that is so tight, he deserves that time.

If Frank ends the season in 9th, and it’s been inconsistent results and performances the whole season, I think we re-evaluate then and see who else we can get. But I just don’t see how paying 10m compensation, then sacking the guy after half a season and dealing anyone new a bad hand / going the caretaker route is actually a guarantee of anything this season. And in spite of all the examples that have been shared either way, the most successful club in the league right now is a shining example of giving a manager time to establish a foundation.

If we looked completely uncoordinated and like the players weren’t even trying to do what Frank wants, I’d say get rid right now. But they are trying. They just aren’t executing. But it doesn’t mean it absolutely won’t happen in the next few months.
 
Raziel said:
And I know you will say it's because I have an agenda against Frank (I don't, I have an agenda to see my club do better), go look at the Liverpool game again, when down to 9 men, the players went off script (no orders) and somehow pinned back Liverpool, somehow on instinct the team looked better.
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I respect your posts mate, but you do tend to over reach with some of your arguments. Do you seriously think TF wouldn't have given instructions on how he wanted the team to play when down to 10 men, against Liverpool? Rather you would believe that players went off script? If so why don't they do that every game? Were you at the Brentford home game? We looked really good. The first half yesterday, we looked really good. Are you seriously arguing when we play well it's because the players go off script?

Or could it be he is trying to implement a game plan but given the number of games he is having to prepare for there is not sufficient time game to game to embed his ideas?
 
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I am undecided with Frank and reading through this thread I find myself agreeing with both sides of the argument....

Setting aside the strength of the squad, the ability of individual players and current injuries, this thought keeps going through my mind....

I would like to see the prematch team talk, the half time chat and then what Frank said at full time..... That would make it easier for me to judge whether or not he is the right manager for the mighty and glorious Tottenham Hotspur.
 
Finney Is Back said:
Yes, we were in 5th place. So if anyone was calling for him to go with him having us in 5th place having just lost Harry Kane would've clearly been absolutely barking mad!
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Sorry mate my point was missed. We were on a downwards trajectory after the first 10 games despite no European football. But people gave him the benefit of the doubt and no one was calling for his head or booing him at the stadium. That was probably to do with position in the table rather than how we were actually playing.
 
Robspur12 said:
Sorry mate my point was missed. We were on a downwards trajectory after the first 10 games despite no European football. But people gave him the benefit of the doubt and no one was calling for his head or booing him at the stadium. That was probably to do with position in the table rather than how we were actually playing.
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Mate, we were 5th at the time and we finished 5th. We also played attacking football that was pretty easy on the eye. There wasn't really any benefit of the doubt to give. Do you not agree that it would've been laughable to be booing a manager and team in 5th place, trying to attack and win every game?
 
Robspur12 said:
Sorry mate my point was missed. We were on a downwards trajectory after the first 10 games despite no European football. But people gave him the benefit of the doubt and no one was calling for his head or booing him at the stadium. That was probably to do with position in the table rather than how we were actually playing.
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Gonna always defend this point, I know it’s not you saying it exactly but I do find it odd how the end of Ange’s first season was made out to be relegation form after the first 10. It just wasn’t.

Between the home loss to West Ham on Dec 7, which marked the end of a 5 game winless run (including the injuries and suspensions incurred from the Chelsea game at the start of it, but also including a 3-3 draw at City) we then lose 3 out of the next 16. 10 wins. 3 draws.

This includes then smashing Saudi Sportswashing Machine 4-1 at home, drawing 2-2 at United and ultimately crushing Villa 4-0 away.

We then end the season badly. The fixtures were Saudi Sportswashing Machine away, Chelsea away, Liverpool away, Arsenal at home (3-2 loss) and City at home (weird game that half the fans wanted to lose). We also beat Burnley and Sheffield United to end the year.

So I just really want to challenge this idea that we were playing badly, or that he was ‘found out’ (not you saying this, but others do). It simply isn’t true. We had one bad run in the season after losing a handful of key players to injuries and suspensions incurred in one game. And then another at the end of the season probably with the hardest fixtures we would have. Should we aspire to do better in those fixtures? Of course. But an attacking manager in his first season probably loses those games and flat track bullies the rest. Which is kind of ok, and why 5th is a good achievement that we would all take like a shot this year.
 
Robspur12 said:
Are you or have you been a football manager? Genuine question, because you are extremely black and white about what is needed to be a successful manager? Even down to every coaching detail.

I would be very surprised if an elite coach who's managed for several years in the PL is not aware of everything you say about patterns of play. Especially someone who comes across as intelligent as Thomas Frank. Of course implementing those ideas is another matter.

I haven't managed in football, but have managed people for the last 20 years. I often say it would be easy to be a manager if all my staff were robots!
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No I'm not even a pretend manager, if it matters I work for companies 100s of the size of Spurs and I take on/own initiatives that can be across various industries with an expectation of measured KPIs and success immediately or in first 1-2 quarters. I know how board room/managerial decisions with massive expectations work, and the accountability you must have (I have taken over teams multiple times that have been comfortable missing targets and very rarely can you fix that situation with all the same people)

I don't disagree that Frank must be aware, the question is what is more likely
- The view of a significant number of people on this board that believe none of our top level PL players are unable to make a basic pass (again, players in lower levels can pass a ball, do the basics)
- He is unable (for whatever reason, as you said) to implement said ideas, and that in itself is an indictment of him as a manger.

Robspur12 said:
I respect your posts mate, but you do tend to over reach with some of your arguments. Do you seriously think TF wouldn't have given instructions on how he wanted the team to play when down to 10 men, against Liverpool? Rather you would believe that players went off script? If so why don't they do that every game? Were you at the Brentford home game? We looked really good. The first half yesterday, we looked really good. Are you seriously arguing when we play well it's because the players go off script?

Or could it be he is trying to implement a game plan but given the number of games he is having to prepare for there is not sufficient time game to game to embed his ideas?
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No I don't believe Frank (the guy we have watched manage 29 games as a Spurs manager) had a plan that said at 2-0 down, at 10 or 9 men gave instructions to go into all out attack mode, I'd buy that from Ange, not Frank. I'd bet good money his instructions would have been sit deep and counter, look for the opportunity, the set piece. My personal opinion (and you are free to call flimflam on it) is the players felt hard done by, felt the ref had done them over and they went "fudge it" lets go for it, and we looked very different, and pushed Liverpool with a man disadvantage that Frank has never been able to get us to do against way lesser opponents.
 
Raziel said:
I don't disagree that Frank must be aware, the question is what is more likely
- The view of a significant number of people on this board that believe none of our top level PL players are unable to make a basic pass (again, players in lower levels can pass a ball, do the basics)
- He is unable (for whatever reason, as you said) to implement said ideas, and that in itself is an indictment of him as a manger.
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Given the sample size of the majority of footballers in the PL being massively over paid and utter drudgery, I will go with the first for many teams, not just Spurs, given I have seen the same film many times as a Spurs fan I put Spurs players inability to do it regularly also on the players.

I think Frank shoulders alot of the blame rightly so, but only the blind would keep giving some of these players a free pass on their ability to fcuk up under more than one manager

I certainly dont blame Frank for Vicario running out tbe box and kicking it at an opponent, nor player falling over the ball in attack, not being able yo take a throw in etc.
 
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Raziel said:
I don't disagree that Frank must be aware, the question is what is more likely
- The view of a significant number of people on this board that believe none of our top level PL players are unable to make a basic pass (again, players in lower levels can pass a ball, do the basics)
- He is unable (for whatever reason, as you said) to implement said ideas, and that in itself is an indictment of him as a manger.
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You are someone who clearly is very focused on statistics.... so here is one: An unforced passing error every three minutes....

Does that answer your question of what is more likely?
 
Surfless said:
Problem is that villa were down and out a month ago, so your reference falls flat. If we go on a run of 8 wins in 10 then we will be third.

Also we need to get away once and for all from the mantra that everything can be fixed by sacking the manager. We are literally the embodiment of proof that doesn't work.

The club has been around for 130 odd years, so changing things every 18 months is daft. Let someone build a fudging dynasty will you???
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Where is this run of 8 wins out of 10 coming from? What signs do you see that a 8 game winning streak is coming towards our way? We have 7 wins in 20 games. That is like me saying my retirement plan is winning the lottery, I just have to play constantly.
Chelsea sacked their manager for being 5th, United sacked theirs for being 6th. We are 13th my friend. I'm not saying sack him, I am saying he hasn't done a good job so far and wouldn't be surprised if they did. He has brought himself in this situation and looking at our game, there are no heavy signs that he can turn it around.
 
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