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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

Raziel said:
Why? what data backs that statement up? Real Madrid is the most successful club in the world, they change managers like socks, Chelsea fires as many managers as us, no problem being successful.
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Yes they did.... because in those two examples MONEY trumps the timeframe of the manager.

You're better at arguing something than that.
 
billyiddo said:
A whole 3 points more than what we currently have would be enough to halt the conversation?
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Not 100% but considering we haven't been in 7th or better since November (9 games ago)

The only reason it's 3 points is the league is a mess, truth is, it's 6 clubs who are doing better than us, consistently for the last 2 months. So it's not 6 points, it's 6 points and depending on 6 other clubs to do worse to get us to minimum bar performance.

I think this conversation has been done to death, I get people want to give him time, perhaps see something I don't, but the inability to at least acknowledge 7th with excuses/circumstances is a way different thing that 13th with excuses/circumstances.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Yes they did.... because in those two examples MONEY trumps the timeframe of the manager.

You're better at arguing something than that.
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Yes money helps, I'm not arguing that.

I'm asking for examples of managers (lets take your rules, with limited resources) and a club with some kind of expectations that was initially not successful, given time and turned it around. The fact that I can't even think of one, and no one has volunteered an answer is part of my point, there is very little correlation between time in role and success, I've actually shown data for the opposite (Jose, Conte, Ange with us, Ranieri at Leicester, likely Slot at Liverpool, can go on)
 
Raziel said:
Yes money helps, I'm not arguing that.

I'm asking for examples of managers (lets take your rules, with limited resources) and a club with some kind of expectations that was initially not successful, given time and turned it around. The fact that I can't even think of one, and no one has volunteered an answer is part of my point, there is very little correlation between time in role and success, I've actually shown data for the opposite (Jose, Conte, Ange with us, Ranieri at Leicester, likely Slot at Liverpool, can go on)
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Gasperini
Klopp
Howe (Bournemouth)
Simone
Unai Emery
Arteta

Off my head
 
Raziel said:
Yes money helps, I'm not arguing that.

I'm asking for examples of managers (lets take your rules, with limited resources) and a club with some kind of expectations that was initially not successful, given time and turned it around. The fact that I can't even think of one, and no one has volunteered an answer is part of my point, there is very little correlation between time in role and success, I've actually shown data for the opposite (Jose, Conte, Ange with us, Ranieri at Leicester, likely Slot at Liverpool, can go on)
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Would need to define what successful is and time is first surely, I would think there's numerous managers who've got a team promoted that would qualify.

Poch himself was on the verge of getting sacked with us and done alright.
 
fernadez said:
Would need to define what successful is and time is first surely, I would think there's numerous managers who've got a team promoted that would qualify.

Poch himself was on the verge of getting sacked with us and done alright.
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Success is different for all sides, so you are right, there would be plenty with long term successful managers who couldn't be defined as a trophy (que conflation with us and claims that means we are happy without trophies)
 
Raziel said:
Yes money helps, I'm not arguing that.

I'm asking for examples of managers (lets take your rules, with limited resources) and a club with some kind of expectations that was initially not successful, given time and turned it around. The fact that I can't even think of one, and no one has volunteered an answer is part of my point, there is very little correlation between time in role and success, I've actually shown data for the opposite (Jose, Conte, Ange with us, Ranieri at Leicester, likely Slot at Liverpool, can go on)
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You are arguing that if you use it as an example to contest someone's point.

Probably best to compare apples with apples from the get go. Just a pet hate of mine...no biggie.

Tbh mate...if you've thrown the towel in already (nothing wrong with that stance) I wouldn't bother with the long posts (unless it's therapeutic) as you're up against a group that wants to give him time. So from your pov you're just going to be stuck on repeat as things chug along to (imo) at least the end of the season.
 
Raziel said:
Not 100% but considering we haven't been in 7th or better since November (9 games ago)

The only reason it's 3 points is the league is a mess, truth is, it's 6 clubs who are doing better than us, consistently for the last 2 months. So it's not 6 points, it's 6 points and depending on 6 other clubs to do worse to get us to minimum bar performance.

I think this conversation has been done to death, I get people want to give him time, perhaps see something I don't, but the inability to at least acknowledge 7th with excuses/circumstances is a way different thing that 13th with excuses/circumstances.
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It's 3 points - that's the difference between the two at this point, it doesn't need acknowledging because the table is there to be seen.

Seems rather arbitrary to me to be making a certain league position the yardstick at this stage of the season - it's not far away from actually saying a new manager has zero time to bed in... if we're saying that 7th and back in the European places would be an acceptable first season but he absoloutely has to be there at the halfway point regardless, then what time has actually been allowed?
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
You are arguing that if you use it as an example to contest someone's point.

Probably best to compare apples with apples from the get go. Just a pet hate of mine...no biggie.

Tbh mate...if you've thrown the towel in already (nothing wrong with that stance) I wouldn't bother with the long posts (unless it's therapeutic) as you're up against a group that wants to give him time. So from your pov you're just going to be stuck on repeat as things chug along to (imo) at least the end of the season.
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Fair enough ..
 
Finney Is Back said:
Sorry to cut your excellent post down to just this bit but I actually think that Amorim's system might have been starting to work at Man Utd. Their numbers have improved quite considerably this season. They have the 3rd best XG in the league this season and the 6th best XGA. Their numbers so far this season say that they were likely to be playing CL football next season.
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I don't think you necessarily needed xg or xga to tell you that they have improved. Results and the eye test would be enough. Interesting though he completely changed the attackers from last season when, let's face it they were pretty dire. Utd persisted with him during the bad times then sack him when it looked like the tide was turning. Go figure.

I think we need to persist with TF to give him an opportunity to show, that he too can turn the team around with a few astute additions.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I don't think Ange did have us believing that. He did brilliantly getting us a 5th place finish in season 1 after losing Harry Kane. Season 2 was a terrible season in the league, where I think we would've still finished in the bottom half even without the focus moving to the Europa League. However, it was very clear on here that people didn't find it acceptable to be in the bottom half of the table, even with him having the kudos from a 5th place finish and a Europa League win. It seems to me that it is mostly the "Ange out" mob that now think it is fine for a manager to have us in the bottom half.
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The trajectory in the league under Ange was downwards after a brilliant start. But most people gave him the benefit of the doubt for the first season. I don't recall anyone calling for him to be sacked in December or January of season 1. But as the trajectory continued during season 2 is when most fans couldn't see a way forward with him.

We are still without Kane now of course and also Son. We have also lost Madison, Deki and Solanke all of whom were supposed to help cushion the loss of HK. That might help to explain why the Xg is lower.
 
glorygloryeze said:
Tbh, i think you'll likely find it's the club hierarchy that don't think it's acceptable to be in the bottom half...
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There is far more to the Ange story than we will ever know and it is not just about finishing 17th. You don't sack a manager who wins a major trophy unless there are major concerns behind the scenes. The League finish IMHO gave the Board the cover to sack him.
 
Robspur12 said:
There is far more to the Ange story than we will ever know and it is not just about finishing 17th. You don't sack a manager who wins a major trophy unless there are major concerns behind the scenes. The League finish IMHO gave the Board the cover to sack him.
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Apart from the actual results and tactics on the field, i do have a theory that they (i.e. the board) decided he wasn't the guy long-term during the run-in of the 2023-24 season; the lack of first-team ready-to-go straight away signings in the summer of 2024 imo proves that. We'd just finished outside the top 4 by a small number of points after all.

My theory was the outburst about some in the club wanting us to lose the City game i think sealed his fate with the board, plus losing something like 7 out of the last ten games....i don't think it helped his case that that game was the one he got wound up about whether we lost or not vs, the limp defeats (often to set-pieces) vs the likes of Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Arsenal Chelsea...
 
Raziel said:
Outside of the season he took over from Rodgers, his first 3 full seasons were 4th, 4th and 2nd, no one's job is really under threat finishing in CL spots. And it was very obvious what his team was trying to do.

Again, if Ange last season or Frank this season were 7th, this wouldn't be a conversation.
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Except Harry Redknapp's at Spurs ;) (though I appreciate it didn't end up being a CL spot due to Bayern fluffing their lines).
 
Finney Is Back said:
So if at the end of the season we're not what?.... Top 12? Top 10? Top 8? Top 6? you'd be good with us sacking him then?
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Tbf, it's probably often better to sack a manager in the clsoe season as many managhers would prefer to have a pre-season to set-up their squads , train on preferred tactics etc.

In our case, we'd almost certainly have better options and look better to prospective managers as well
 
Robspur12 said:
The trajectory in the league under Ange was downwards after a brilliant start. But most people gave him the benefit of the doubt for the first season. I don't recall anyone calling for him to be sacked in December or January of season 1. But as the trajectory continued during season 2 is when most fans couldn't see a way forward with him.

We are still without Kane now of course and also Son. We have also lost Madison, Deki and Solanke all of whom were supposed to help cushion the loss of HK. That might help to explain why the Xg is lower.
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We were in 5th place in the league with 39 points after 20 games that season. He was doing superbly then.
 
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