Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[glorygloryeze]

It's true but, at the same time, even under Postecoglou, our midfielders were already exposed for their very poor passing ability, despite having more progressive options. During his second season, I remember reading a piece that claimed we had one of the worst midfields in the league when it came to pass completion.

Also, it's worth keeping in mind that passing is only half the problem - movement off the ball is just as important. For instance, a sideways pass to a team-mate running towards the opposition goal could prove a better attacking option than a so-called 'progressive' pass to a team-mate standing still, with his back on goal.

Anyway, if you look at other football fans forums, pretty much everyone agrees that Frank is a defensive coach. In all likelihood, we could be more efficient with more time and better players, but it's unlikely his style will ever be easy on the eye.

Yes, i have to say movement off the ball to give the person on the ball options has been woeful for at least two years now imo.
Extremely frustrating to watch, but how much is caused by because people making themselves available and then constantly not receiving it (because of the ball going sideways or backwards instead). A bit chicken and egg now and as i say goes back beyond Frank's time.
You certainly appreciate the risks that, say, Maddison takes but even he could often hog onto a ball for too long as well....

 

[harr1984]

There doesn't seem to be any sway in opinions over the last couple of weeks, I would say it's fair to summarise all of the back and forth as such:

-The majority feel the football has been a less than enjoyable watch on the whole
-The majority want to give Frank further time (at least the full season) to see how the football evolves both with the opportunity of having added signings and further time on the training ground to work on things and of course some key players back
- Everyone is in agreement we need better players than what we have for where we want to be, but a lot (probably majority but not sure totally) believe we can still be playing better with what the players we do have
- Almost everyone agrees we are underperforming positionally in the league, but recognise are within touching distance of European spots so not going to get a fair/clear view of achievement until end of season
- A very small proportion would rather Frank be removed now

I don't see any viewpoints changing much in the short term, and above is just how I see the consensus of views....

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

There doesn't seem to be any sway in opinions over the last couple of weeks, I would say it's fair to summarise all of the back and forth as such:

-The majority feel the football has been a less than enjoyable watch on the whole
-The majority want to give Frank further time (at least the full season) to see how the football evolves both with the opportunity of having added signings and further time on the training ground to work on things and of course some key players back
- Everyone is in agreement we need better players than what we have for where we want to be, but a lot (probably majority but not sure totally) believe we can still be playing better with what the players we do have
- Almost everyone agrees we are underperforming positionally in the league, but recognise are within touching distance of European spots so not going to get a fair/clear view of achievement until end of season
- A very small proportion would rather Frank be removed now

I don't see any viewpoints changing much in the short term, and above is just how I see the consensus of views....

Fair summary, and it would be the same for many if Xavi was here and in charge, someone given his level of player needed would mean another overhaul and no doubt a drop off because we can't play like Barcelona and we have more pigs than Barcelona (his famous outburst). Anyone will need time here.

 

[Finney Is Back]

It's true but, at the same time, even under Postecoglou, our midfielders were already exposed for their very poor passing ability, despite having more progressive options. During his second season, I remember reading a piece that claimed we had one of the worst midfields in the league when it came to pass completion.

Also, it's worth keeping in mind that passing is only half the problem - movement off the ball is just as important. For instance, a sideways pass to a team-mate running towards the opposition goal could prove a better attacking option than a so-called 'progressive' pass to a team-mate standing still, with his back on goal.

Anyway, if you look at other football fans forums, pretty much everyone agrees that Frank is a defensive coach. In all likelihood, we could be more efficient with more time and better players, but it's unlikely his style will ever be easy on the eye.

But that was probably because we were trying to pass progressively. It is natural that you'll complete fewer passes if trying to make riskier passes.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Fair summary, and it would be the same for many if Xavi was here and in charge, someone given his level of player needed would mean another overhaul and no doubt a drop off because we can't play like Barcelona and we have more pigs than Barcelona (his famous outburst). Anyone will need time here.

If Xavi was here and in charge I don't think we would anywhere near as low as as we are in the progressive passing or XG stats and I think that would have our fan base a little happier than we have right now (especially those that attend the matches)

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

If Xavi was here and in charge I don't think we would anywhere near as low as as we are in the progressive passing or XG stats and I think that would have our fan base a little happier than we have right now (especially those that attend the matches)

No doubt, stylistically two different managers, but we would have to stomach a project still, regardless off back and forth on here I doubt this support base has the stomach for it, not seen anything that suggests they would. Love the be proven wrong and we actually give someone time and money to create sustained success

 

[Finney Is Back]

No doubt, stylistically two different managers, but we would have to stomach a project still, regardless off back and forth on here I doubt this support base has the stomach for it, not seen anything that suggests they would. Love the be proven wrong and we actually give someone time and money to create sustained success

I think a project with attacking football is far easier to stomach than a defensive, long ball one....

 

[billyiddo]

13th in the league for long passes fwiw

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I think a project with attacking football is far easier to stomach than a defensive, long ball one....

Unless you are losing by cricket scores, then its as unpalatable as any other kind of the game.

I will judge Spurs and its stomach for hardship with a view to being better under the weight of history and nothing tells me we would take either if it meant a trophyless lean year with a view to better long term.

 

[harr1984]

Fair summary, and it would be the same for many if Xavi was here and in charge, someone given his level of player needed would mean another overhaul and no doubt a drop off because we can't play like Barcelona and we have more pigs than Barcelona (his famous outburst). Anyone will need time here.

Yes of course, I think the discourse mainly comes from how much time he should be given to demonstrate he can get us going attacking wise. I don't think posters on here have been too unrealistic in what they would like to see, example being our last game where we were far from perfect but we were trying to be positive getting into better attacking positions and more touches in the opponents box etc and the reaction on here was one of much more satisfaction than in previous games.

If a similar approach occurs for the majority of the season, I don't think there would be too much criticism coming Franks' way - on here anyway, I appreciate there was a fair amount of booing after the final whistle in the stadium which was a real disappointment to see....

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think most fans can see the wood for the trees, and appreciate Frank needs time and he lacks settled ready-made attacking players.

But then there are some illogical whinging fans who don’t want Frank full stop. They correlate with those who wanted Ange to stay on. So rather than give the new man a fair crack, they are more into being right than supporting the side.

When the team get zhit during the game is it any wonder they lack confidence to make simple passes?

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I think most fans can see the wood for the trees, and appreciate Frank needs time and he lacks settled ready-made attacking players.

But then there are some illogical whinging fans who don’t want Frank full stop. They correlate with those who wanted Ange to stay on. So rather than give the new man a fair crack, they are more into being right than supporting the side.

When the team get zhit during the game is it any wonder they lack confidence to make simple passes?

Most people know the club they have supported for the last 30+ years and the near constant state of flux

Thats why when people use examples, like Real Madrid, Chelsea, Liverpool as "what would they do" makes me laugh, I mean I would act like then if we were a dynasty and had a platform to be so demanding. Thus far I have not seen it for much of my Spurs supporting history

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think most fans can see the wood for the trees, and appreciate Frank needs time and he lacks settled ready-made attacking players.

But then there are some illogical whinging fans who don’t want Frank full stop. They correlate with those who wanted Ange to stay on. So rather than give the new man a fair crack, they are more into being right than supporting the side.

When the team get zhit during the game is it any wonder they lack confidence to make simple passes?

I think most fans accept that Frank needs time, though don't understand why he has turned Spurs into one of the least attacking teams in the league, who rarely if ever play progressive passes or make progressive carries.

There are some illogical, won't admit there's a problem fans who will support Frank no matter what. They correlate with those who wanted Ange out, so rather than judge the new man by the same standards they judged Ange by, they've gone all in that this is some sort of negative football period that will magically transform into an attacking period after time, or that suddenly the players aren't good enough despite them apparently being more than good enough for the previous manager.

The team got no brick at all during the game at the weekend. The support was pretty good. Frank is getting some stick from the fans but that is because those that go to the games can see how negative his tactics for the players are.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think most fans accept that Frank needs time, though don't understand why he has turned Spurs into one of the least attacking teams in the league, who rarely if ever play progressive passes or make progressive carries.

There are some illogical, won't admit there's a problem fans who will support Frank no matter what. They correlate with those who wanted Ange out, so rather than judge the new man by the same standards they judged Ange by, they've gone all in that this is some sort of negative football period that will magically transform into an attacking period after time, or that suddenly the players aren't good enough despite them apparently being more than good enough for the previous manager.

The team got no brick at all during the game at the weekend. The support was pretty good. Frank is getting some stick from the fans but that is because those that go to the games can see how negative his tactics for the players are.

Nonsense I’m afraid.

Ange had much more time before fans made a judgement call.

Unlike you, most fans can see that the issues are a lack of players in attack. We only have the cover players available in attack now. And unlike you, fans can see the good work Frank has been doing with Odobert getting him playing well. Tell too possibly. But we need some patience and the next flurry of games is going to be tough with such limited attacking personnel. Richi is ragged, and we will rely on some young players to step up. Personally I’m up for that. Knowing that we might not win.

All of your horse shoe nonsense and belief that Frank tells the side not to attack isn’t the case. When we had the energy we played in a progressive way. But you’re too blinkered and fixated with being right to see the wood for the trees.

Hopefully we sign another attacking player and get Solanke back in a groove.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

There are some illogical, won't admit there's a problem fans who will support Frank no matter what. They correlate with those who wanted Ange out, so rather than judge the new man by the same standards they judged Ange by,

Haha who? I have not seen anyone like that, just comes across that you are making stuff up not just to seem right

Most I see on here acknowledge both sides of the coin, literally every post acknowledges where we need to improve, whilst also given reasons why it might not be great.

Not sure where these made up parallels with Ange exist, he lost his job after 2 years, most including myself backed him way into that, stark difference between that and cashing out for a manager after 5 months.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Nonsense I’m afraid.

Ange had much more time before fans made a judgement call.

Unlike you, most fans can see that the issues are a lack of players in attack. We only have the cover players available in attack now. And unlike you, fans can see the good work Frank has been doing with Odobert getting him playing well. Tell too possibly. But we need some patience and the next flurry of games is going to be tough with such limited attacking personnel. Richi is ragged, and we will rely on some young players to step up. Personally I’m up for that. Knowing that we might not win.

All of your horse shoe nonsense and belief that Frank tells the side not to attack isn’t the case. When we had the energy we played in a progressive way. But you’re too blinkered and fixated with being right to see the wood for the trees.

Hopefully we sign another attacking player and get Solanke back in a groove.

Nonsense I'm afraid. Ange was in the European qualifying positions in the league for pretty much the entirely of his first season. Had he been down in this position playing this awful, negative football he would've had all sorts of people calling for him to be sacked - I mean people called for him to be sacked after going 5th and then Europa League winner so that tells you everything.

Unlike you, most fans can see that the issues are the manager's tactics. We have similar players to those that Ange had, but with younger players now having a year's extra experience and a bunch of new, expensive signings. There is little evidence that Frank has got Odobert playing well, I saw more evidence of that last season under Ange.

Do you really think the horseshoe thing is nonsense? Do you really believe that Frank isn't coaching the team not to play progressive passes or make progressive carries? Go and take a look at our passing maps, look at our player stats wheels, look at our (lack of) progressive passing and carrying stats. Look at our anemic XG.

We haven't played in a progressive way for a massive majority of this season. Buy you're too blinkered and fixated with Frank being the right man to see the wood for the trees.

Do you like what I did there?....

 

[Finney Is Back]

Haha who? I have not seen anyone like that, just comes across that you are making stuff up not just to seem right

Most I see on here acknowledge both sides of the coin, literally every post acknowledges where we need to improve, whilst also given reasons why it might not be great.

Not sure where these made up parallels with Ange exist, he lost his job after 2 years, most including myself backed him way into that, stark difference between that and cashing out for a manager after 5 months.

I think we need to keep Frank for the season, mainly because we're already considered a basket case of a club and if getting rid of Frank we'd likely only end up with a substandard caretaker manager anyway for the rest of the season. However, I'm not seeing anything at all in our play that indicates we are going to be in the mix for trophies or a top 7 spot in the league and I'm certainly not at all entertained by the football.

What is it that you are seeing that makes you think it's going to turn around and start to play good football?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Nonsense I'm afraid. Ange was in the European qualifying positions in the league for pretty much the entirely of his first season. Had he been down in this position playing this awful, negative football he would've had all sorts of people calling for him to be sacked - I mean people called for him to be sacked after going 5th and then Europa League winner so that tells you everything.

Unlike you, most fans can see that the issues are the manager's tactics. We have similar players to those that Ange had, but with younger players now having a year's extra experience and a bunch of new, expensive signings. There is little evidence that Frank has got Odobert playing well, I saw more evidence of that last season under Ange.

Do you really think the horseshoe thing is nonsense?

Yes, it just makes you look a bit silly tbh.

Do you really believe that Frank isn't coaching the team not to play progressive passes or make progressive carries?

Yes.

I could see the way we started out, trying to hit passes the break. We gave up the ball too often, so then Frank asked players to make a call, if they aren't confident making the pass, they will recycle it. That was progress, and allows us to build a bit more. Longer term we will try to move the ball out quicker. But no point, if you're just handing over possession.

Go and take a look at our passing maps, look at our player stats wheels, look at our (lack of) progressive passing and carrying stats. Look at our anemic XG.

We haven't played in a progressive way for a massive majority of this season. Buy you're too blinkered and fixated with Frank being the right man to see the wood for the trees.

It is quite normal to address the defense and then build on that foundation. But we are so short in attack right now. Personally I'm pleased with the way Odobert is playing under Frank. At least some small shoots of positivity.

Do you like what I did there?....

Very basic if I'm honest.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yes, it just makes you look a bit silly tbh.

Yes.

I could see the way we started out, trying to hit passes the break. We gave up the ball too often, so then Frank asked players to make a call, if they aren't confident making the pass, they will recycle it. That was progress, and allows us to build a bit more. Longer term we will try to move the ball out quicker. But no point, if you're just handing over possession.

It is quite normal to address the defense and then build on that foundation. But we are so short in attack right now. Personally I'm pleased with the way Odobert is playing under Frank. At least some small shoots of positivity.


Very basic if I'm honest.

So you are ignoring all of the stats that show we avoid the middle of the pitch, show that our whole team makes less progressive passes than single players in our opponents team, show we have one of the worst XGs in the league, show that we take fewer shots than a large majority of the league? I'm not sure that it is me that it makes look silly when it is you that ignores all of that evidence.

I sincerely hope that Frank turns it around. I want him to do well as it means Spurs are doing well, I want to watch good football and be entertained. I thought the first half of Sunday's game was an improvement of what came before, but that is starting from a very low bar - it wasn't great but at least we actually did some pressing. If we get a bit better again against Bournemouth this week then I'll admit that and perhaps talk about green shoots but I just haven't seen anything like enough so far to say that Frank will do a good job at Spurs. He has to earn the right to remain at this club and, so far, he simply hasn't done that. I suspect he'll get the whole of this season unless we see more performances as bad as those against Arsenal, Chelsea and Forest but he has to get the bar a hell of a lot higher if he is to get longer than that.

 

[SpurMeUp]

So you are ignoring all of the stats that show we avoid the middle of the pitch, show that our whole team makes less progressive passes than single players in our opponents team, show we have one of the worst XGs in the league, show that we take fewer shots than a large majority of the of the league? I'm not sure that it is me that it makes look silly when it is you that ignores all of that evidence.

No, I am just willing to give it time, knowing that we're 4 attacking (creative) players down from last season, and need to let the likes of Xavi bed in.