who have Azerbaijan expelled? Citations please.
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Sick sick world what is wrong with people
- Thread starter Danishfurniturelover
- Start date
who have Azerbaijan expelled? Citations please.
I don't know much about the history but hasn't there been a blockade for 16 years (since Hamas got voted in) by land and sea. Makes it difficult to develop or do much in those circumstances. I don't know how restricted they are - can they enter Israel for instance or what happens if they go out on a boat?
Seems to me there should have been a 2 state solution ages ago but the UN thing was voted in but neither side agreed with it and it's been gridlock since but without some form of a 2 state solution I don't really see any end to it.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
120000 people. The entire population of the Nagorno Karabakh region: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...akh-ghost-town-un-ethnic-armenians-azerbaijan
did you read the article? They were not expelled at all, they left due to the hardship caused by the blockade and the fact they didn’t trust the Azeri government. Not saying the blockade was right, or they should trust the Azeri government- that’s a much longer and more nuanced post.
but no one was expelled. And 20,000 still remain.
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
The post you quoted was about cutting off power and water? But we can talk about the blockade. If you have Hamas in change, funded by Iran, who both state they wish to kill Jews and destroy Isreal, do you think it’s a good idea for Isreal to let any old goods into Gaza? Like rockets arms etc. clearly a lot got through for this massacre. Microlight aircraft, guns, plenty of rockets or components to make them.
In a democratic nation, who would say ‘you know what screw it, have free rein, bring in as many arms as you like’! No government would stay in power whether in the UK or Isreal faced with the very real threat and ability to reduce the threat. The current crisis shows that the blockade wasn’t staunch and the borders are quite porous in reality. Moreover you or I can buy Palestinian Oliver oil in the UK exported freely. And as mentioned Gaza has another border with a Muslim nation it doesn’t hate. I believe visas are given to Palestinians to enter Isreal. Wasn’t it common for Palestinians to work in Isreal and return to Gaza each day? I think so.
It’s a bit obvious but to have a two state solution…you need two states, two functioning nations. There isn’t that. There is a total imbalance and Gaza doesn’t have a stable effective government. It’s not even a pariah state. Before Gaza was controlled by Isreal it was Egyptian, before that British, and before that Turkish. If anyone has a claim on Isreal maybe it is the Turks as they held the area for the longest period - maybe 700 years.
There is no doubt Isreal is partly to blame for Gaza being in limbo. Isreal is caught in a catch 22 where it can’t empower a quasi-state who is run by people who want to wipe it and its people from the face of the earth. Yet at the same time, for Gaza to progress and became a state (two-state solution) it needs stability, infrastructure, peace, development, investment. Which is why the role of Iran and others funding Hamas is so detrimental. Believe it or not Isreal would like Gaza to be a stable independent peaceful nation. Isreal has stable good relations with Jordan and Egypt. Though both have to play up to Islamist fanatics int heir own nations who also hate Isreal.
Maybe what many left leaning commentators don’t appreciate is the history of hate towards Jews and Isreal. Thousands of Jews were displaced, driven out of homes and communities across the Middle East. I need to underit more but the Arab world rose up against Isreal in the 1940,50,60s. And the deep hate is sadly ingrained in some. Yet the Brits gave Isreal to zionists. And the League of Nations awarded Isreal to us Brits post Ottoman Empire and WWI?.
I’ve always tried to keep an open mind on Isreal. Knowing there are fundamental Jews and settlers etc. but their wrongs don’t seem as indiscriminate and hate filled as the holy war many islamists believe they are waging.
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Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Do you seriously believe that? And Putin only invaded Ukraine to get rid of Nazis? They fled to avoid a massacre when their army was breached. There were 20,000 left on the day of the article because they were still queueing at that point to get out, but there are none left now. It was a pogrom
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
What about West Bank? It is run by moderates. Yet Israel still colonise it. If they gave West Bank its independence, that would likely show those in Gaza a future path and swing them back towards Fatah.
What are you talking about? You really no nothing of this conflict. NK is UN recognised Azeri Land, Armenia was Russia in this scenario. Its just took Azerbaijan decades to liberate their land. The 100k Armenians fleeing is tragic and the reasons why complex and nuanced (and I have great sympathy for those that left everything behind), but there was no forced deportation or expulsion.
totalspurs
Louis Saha
I don't want to see any one killed on either side truly, just like I'm sure the rest of you don't, and I really appreciate some dialogue and hope people in power do the same.
The issue I have with some of the conversation here is that the narrative is implying that only Gaza is Palestine. Gaza is just a small strip of Palestine as defined by International law. Gaza today is a highly densely populated cage systemically created by Israel caging in families and mainly children and young people into and open air prison.
If we look beyond what sadness of what has happened over the past 4 days... Everyday in Gaza as Palestine women, children and young people go about their daily business of shopping, going to school or work, the Israeli army or Israeli settlers go around shooting, raping women and girls or abducting children from their mothers and locking them up in cells. Isrealie soldiers decided they want to target practice and involuntarily sniper off men women and children cos they are bored. Homes are bulldozed because an Israeli settler wakes up and decides he wants his neighbours land to build a new house. This is the reality for Palestinians not just in Gaza but across the West Bank and across Israel (but particularly in Gaza). Even in Israel Isrealie citizen Palestinians and Isrealie Citizen Christian do not have equal rights in Law. It's a Colonial apartied state, and this is documented and agreed by the UN.
Alot of Isrealie young people are against the Government which is made up of Fascist and Radicalist who need the votes of the Zionists and Nationalist population to stay in Power.
When you have a people who have been persecuted and treat like animals in their own country, and the world ignores their plight against the oppressor, they will look for anyone to stand up for them. Unfortunately it's only Hamas who is prepared to pick up that batton which is a real shame on humanity.
If that happened to any of us we would be looking for anyone to stand up for us (no matter how crazy they are) just for someone to hear our cry for help.
Now the 'Civilised' world are making excuses to give a mandate for Israel justify the right to drop deadly bombs on innocent women and children in packed densely populated ghetto...so that they can sleep with a clear conscience. It's sick all round.
The issue I have with some of the conversation here is that the narrative is implying that only Gaza is Palestine. Gaza is just a small strip of Palestine as defined by International law. Gaza today is a highly densely populated cage systemically created by Israel caging in families and mainly children and young people into and open air prison.
If we look beyond what sadness of what has happened over the past 4 days... Everyday in Gaza as Palestine women, children and young people go about their daily business of shopping, going to school or work, the Israeli army or Israeli settlers go around shooting, raping women and girls or abducting children from their mothers and locking them up in cells. Isrealie soldiers decided they want to target practice and involuntarily sniper off men women and children cos they are bored. Homes are bulldozed because an Israeli settler wakes up and decides he wants his neighbours land to build a new house. This is the reality for Palestinians not just in Gaza but across the West Bank and across Israel (but particularly in Gaza). Even in Israel Isrealie citizen Palestinians and Isrealie Citizen Christian do not have equal rights in Law. It's a Colonial apartied state, and this is documented and agreed by the UN.
Alot of Isrealie young people are against the Government which is made up of Fascist and Radicalist who need the votes of the Zionists and Nationalist population to stay in Power.
When you have a people who have been persecuted and treat like animals in their own country, and the world ignores their plight against the oppressor, they will look for anyone to stand up for them. Unfortunately it's only Hamas who is prepared to pick up that batton which is a real shame on humanity.
If that happened to any of us we would be looking for anyone to stand up for us (no matter how crazy they are) just for someone to hear our cry for help.
Now the 'Civilised' world are making excuses to give a mandate for Israel justify the right to drop deadly bombs on innocent women and children in packed densely populated ghetto...so that they can sleep with a clear conscience. It's sick all round.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
Let me ask you a question about Hamas; do you genuinely believe that Hamas is acting in the interests of the Palestinian people?
That's a VERY important question to answer.
Craig_J
Eidur Gudjohnsen
With you completely. Israel has always gotten a free pass from the non-Arab world to do whatever it likes. They can slaughter whoever they want - and any criticism of their right to kill civilians, chant 'death to Arabs', vote in fascist governments or create an apartheid state is considered anti-Semitic.
Think there's a large part of anti-brownness, Islamophobia, a strong keenness for the west to defend its failed experiment of forcing the creation of a country in already occupied land - and for sure a simple economical calculation that whilst Israel has trade value to the West Palestine doesn't have that.
Israel has a national security minister who has chanted death to Arabs and had a picture on his wall of a Jewish terrorist who massacred a mosque, a finance minister who described himself as fascist but said he 'wouldn't stone gays'. They've tried to abolish the powers of the supreme court.
As sad as it is to admit Israel is well and truly on the path to fascism. Perhaps even there.
After all, that's why a couple of months ago lots of Israeli citizens decided to leave to escape their own government.
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braineclipse
Willie Hall
Cheers for the post, I too try to keep an open mind and try to expand on my limited knowledge.
Could you expand on the claim that Israel wants Gaza to progress and become a functional state?
From what I've seen I struggle to see that real wish for a two state solution from Israel. As totalspurs points out Palestine is/was more than the Gaza strip. With what borders and under which conditions would Israel want Palestine to exist as an independent state?
Netanyahu's views on a two state solution seem rather clear. I struggle to square his views and Isreal's actions over the years with your claim about Isreal's wish.
braineclipse
Willie Hall
I believe they're acting in the interests of some Palestinians, but not all. It may not be productive, the results are horrifying, but it's also understandable.
Can you think of an example of a people treated like the Palestinians that didn't result in violent and at times "atrocious" responses from that group of people?
Would you put up with it? Having your land taken from you, living in poverty. No real path to a peaceful solution with compromises on both sides. Being bombed. Food and infrastructure insecurity (at best) for you and your children. Extremely limited financial opportunities. A median age of 18 and no solution in sight where the next generation can live a better life.
You may very well be a person that wouldn't act out in violence against civilians on the side you view as your coloniser even in such conditions. I don't know about myself, my ability to imagine that situation and my reactions to it are too limited. But what I'm certain of is that we both know people who would commit "atrocities" in those conditions. And probably celebrate it too.
I don't think anyone outside Gaza does. But the significant majority that voted for them clearly does.
totalspurs
Louis Saha
I realise that your question wasn't directed at me, but I would like to ask you the question about the radical Netanyahu Government; do you genuinely believe that the Netanyahu Government is acting in the interests of the Israeli people?
That's a VERY important question to answer too.
dawaxman
Gheorge Popescu
Do any of you know how small Israel is compared to the rest of the Middle East? How much natural resources it had when it was given to the Jews back in 1948 following the holocaust? (The answer is none... it was a desert and Israel turned it into the land of milk and honey)
You have to ask yourself why there is so much of a struggle when there is plenty of space for everyone across the Middle East (don't give me the "right of ownership" argument as all land has been "owned" by so many different peoples in all parts of this planet...)
Do you realise that civilian suffering in Gaza is a very sad by-product of this ongoing conflict because the terrorists fire rockets from schools and hospitals, and hide their terrorists in civilian homes because they know the Israelis don't want to hurt the innocent civilians. This is terrorism on a scale which people in the UK have zero concept of... but you yell from the rooftops having never seen the truth, spouting brick you've seen on tiktok
When the terrorist organisation Hamas attacked Israel this week, it was to purposely harm innocent civilians. If they wanted to 'fix' the situation, they could have attacked the Israeli army bases etc, but they didn't and that's because, as Netanyahu (the leftist hipsters who have never entered the Middle East's favourite panto villain) said many years ago:
"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel"
Let me be clear on my stance here, and call me out all you want, but you better have facts and ideally first hand knowledge to support you, otherwise you're just a pawn who has been tricked by Corbynite propaganda:
"I love Israel
I love that there are people there of all religions, and we all shop together, stand together, relax together
I've been in Israel during Islamic holidays and spent the day in the company of people celebrating
I've stayed with the Bedouins in their camps
I've worked on a Kibbutz
I've been in Israel many times during Yom Hazikaron - when the siren goes off and the whole country stops, people get out of their cars in the middle of the motorways, to observe a minutes silence for those killed in conflict
I've been in Israel during Yom Hashoah
I've visited Yad Vashem
I've grown used to walking in and out of shopping malls and having my pockets checked; my wife and mother having their handbags checked for IEDs
I have known what IED stands for since I was a child
I have seen soldiers walking the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with guns - there to protect the civilians. I don't flinch when I see guns now - I'm used to it
I feel a huge affinity to the country
I've been in hundreds of Israeli homes - all of which have a Miklut - a windowless safe room to go to when the bombs come
I've seen the Iron Dome in action
I've been near the border of Israel and Gaza, I've been near the border of the West Bank, I've been near the parts of Jerusalem that it's not safe to go
All of these places - if I went too far, I'd be killed for my religion
The people in these places hate me
My parents' grandparents were part of the pogroms
I've been the victim of anti-semitism many times and I've witnessed anti-semitism thousands of times - in this country
I volunteer for the CST - an organisation that has been set up to keep Jews safe in this country. I do it because it's needed, and it's needed because of the misinformation that has been spread from various people throughout the centuries.
I've had to intervene and protect my fellow Jews numerous times over the years when they've been verbally or physically attacked. Their religious attire mocked, their clothes spat on, their synagogues desecrated
My brother was handed leaflets about Combat18 when he was at school, at 11 years old
I've been called names as a joke, as a form of abuse, as a way to make me feel different
It's not OK, but for some reason, we're fair game
I don't often tell people I'm Jewish, because I hate the face that people pull, or the intake of breath, or the visible reassessment in attitudes that I have to witness
Israel is my home - the only place where I can be Jewish and proud"
And finally, something that sums up what being a jew in the diaspora is all about:
You have to ask yourself why there is so much of a struggle when there is plenty of space for everyone across the Middle East (don't give me the "right of ownership" argument as all land has been "owned" by so many different peoples in all parts of this planet...)
Do you realise that civilian suffering in Gaza is a very sad by-product of this ongoing conflict because the terrorists fire rockets from schools and hospitals, and hide their terrorists in civilian homes because they know the Israelis don't want to hurt the innocent civilians. This is terrorism on a scale which people in the UK have zero concept of... but you yell from the rooftops having never seen the truth, spouting brick you've seen on tiktok
When the terrorist organisation Hamas attacked Israel this week, it was to purposely harm innocent civilians. If they wanted to 'fix' the situation, they could have attacked the Israeli army bases etc, but they didn't and that's because, as Netanyahu (the leftist hipsters who have never entered the Middle East's favourite panto villain) said many years ago:
"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel"
Let me be clear on my stance here, and call me out all you want, but you better have facts and ideally first hand knowledge to support you, otherwise you're just a pawn who has been tricked by Corbynite propaganda:
"I love Israel
I love that there are people there of all religions, and we all shop together, stand together, relax together
I've been in Israel during Islamic holidays and spent the day in the company of people celebrating
I've stayed with the Bedouins in their camps
I've worked on a Kibbutz
I've been in Israel many times during Yom Hazikaron - when the siren goes off and the whole country stops, people get out of their cars in the middle of the motorways, to observe a minutes silence for those killed in conflict
I've been in Israel during Yom Hashoah
I've visited Yad Vashem
I've grown used to walking in and out of shopping malls and having my pockets checked; my wife and mother having their handbags checked for IEDs
I have known what IED stands for since I was a child
I have seen soldiers walking the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with guns - there to protect the civilians. I don't flinch when I see guns now - I'm used to it
I feel a huge affinity to the country
I've been in hundreds of Israeli homes - all of which have a Miklut - a windowless safe room to go to when the bombs come
I've seen the Iron Dome in action
I've been near the border of Israel and Gaza, I've been near the border of the West Bank, I've been near the parts of Jerusalem that it's not safe to go
All of these places - if I went too far, I'd be killed for my religion
The people in these places hate me
My parents' grandparents were part of the pogroms
I've been the victim of anti-semitism many times and I've witnessed anti-semitism thousands of times - in this country
I volunteer for the CST - an organisation that has been set up to keep Jews safe in this country. I do it because it's needed, and it's needed because of the misinformation that has been spread from various people throughout the centuries.
I've had to intervene and protect my fellow Jews numerous times over the years when they've been verbally or physically attacked. Their religious attire mocked, their clothes spat on, their synagogues desecrated
My brother was handed leaflets about Combat18 when he was at school, at 11 years old
I've been called names as a joke, as a form of abuse, as a way to make me feel different
It's not OK, but for some reason, we're fair game
I don't often tell people I'm Jewish, because I hate the face that people pull, or the intake of breath, or the visible reassessment in attitudes that I have to witness
Israel is my home - the only place where I can be Jewish and proud"
And finally, something that sums up what being a jew in the diaspora is all about:
Diamond Lights
Didier Zokora
Really sad state of affairs, i have read what I can and try to be open minded, coming from a British Indian background, i know full well history is written by the victors so you cannot take things at face value.
I find it fascinating the media role in all this. Israel is of strategic importance for the US and it's allies, so the media we consume in the UK is often painted with this in mind. Tweaks to the language when discussing Palestine vs Israel. Really important people dig deeper into the issue.
I find it fascinating the media role in all this. Israel is of strategic importance for the US and it's allies, so the media we consume in the UK is often painted with this in mind. Tweaks to the language when discussing Palestine vs Israel. Really important people dig deeper into the issue.
AuroRaman
Chris Armstrong
I largely align with this and a couple of other posters thoughts after your post. I do believe that if one is to be pro-Palestinian liberation and anti-oppression, that must be consistent with affording Israeli civilians the same right to exist (I’m not saying you’re not doing this by the way).
It has been sad to see pro-Palestine groups double-down on their views after this heinous act by Hamas. If they’d taken a pause and come out in solidarity and empathy, it could have been a powerful moment and not played into the hands of the terrorist scum of Hamas and this current Israeli government. I don’t believe either is acting on the will of the majority.
If one isn’t consistent with their anti-oppression stance then it affords the every-day plight of Palestinian people to be minimised and propagandised by governments, media and village idiots like our resident one to feel empowered to call innocent, desperate civilians ‘monsters’ and dehumanise them because they happen to be a bit more brown.
It is entirely possible to be pro-Palestine and anti-Hamas as much as it is to believe in Israel’s right to exist and want Palestinian civilians to be safe from harm. But providing nuance to this conflict isn’t on the table due to the many bad actors who see a peaceful solution as a form of defeat.
