Sick sick world what is wrong with people

[DTA]

There is willingness on the Israeli side

There is no willingness on the Hamas side... their only solution is to erase Israel off the face of the planet

completely understand the anger and hatred for Hamas after what they done. And yeah I get the desire or even need to destroy them.

but to say Israel is willing to negotiate in good faith goes against the continued building of settlements in the West Bank.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Israel is going to go in hard into Gaza, and if I’m being absolutely honest I can understand why. But the Israeli prime minister said that civilians should get out of the way… well you need to give them somewhere to go.

Once you get out the civilians (I know this is almost impossible- but you should try otherwise what’s the alternative, even more civilians die) … then you go in hard seek and destroy Hamas without remorse.

but at the same time as this you offer The PLO the 1967 borders (this is the internationally recognised borders) - minus Gaza. Make it clear that this is not for negotiation this is the offer peace for the generation.

in effect a very big carrot and very big stick.

Then you work to make the Palestinian state viable with massive funding from the world. And Israel its biggest trading partner like EU did after ww2.

If you were running things I would feel a lot more optimistic

 

[Grays_1890]

completely understand the anger and hatred for Hamas after what they done. And yeah I get the desire or even need to destroy them.

but to say Israel is willing to negotiate in good faith goes against the continued building of settlements in the West Bank.

Absolutely this.

 

[dawaxman]

completely understand the anger and hatred for Hamas after what they done. And yeah I get the desire or even need to destroy them.

but to say Israel is willing to negotiate in good faith goes against the continued building of settlements in the West Bank.

Why do you think there is the situation in the West Bank? Honestly? Do you think they do it just to boil some tinkle? Or do you think its the exact same issue of defending themselves from another terrorist entry point?

Have you accepted that Gaza is 'run by Hamas'? Why will you not do the same for the west bank?

Israel don't want war. Israel want to be able to continue living their life without fear of being destroyed by Hamas, ISIS, Hezbollah et al

It's a very real fear. If you don't believe me, go to Israel, and then tell me you'd like to live like that...

The only tiny plot of land on this earth where there is a Jewish state, and its constantly under attack. And you feel educated enough on it to condemn them?

Do I feel for the plight of the Palestinian people? Of course I do. But the reality is that they've been radicalised by the terrorist organisations that rule there.... whose sole purpose is to delete Jews.... and those poor souls that are left are being used as human shields by their rulers and/or hate Jews with the same unexplainable venom

If they choose to come into Israel, unarmed, and without hate, they are allowed to thrive. Just like ANY community can (something that can't be said for the rest of the Arabic countries.... but we accept this as a 'cultural acceptance' wtf!)

If you don't believe what I'm saying because of what you've seen in the media, go and visit Israel and see for yourself

And one final point.... there seems to be so much focus on Palestine and the suffering of their people, and yet there are so many worse atrocities happening right now around the world in North Korea, Libya, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Tibet, Pakistan etc etc etc

Are people so antisemitic that this is the only atrocity that they have an opinion on, despite never having been within a hundred miles of Palestine?

Why does this one matter to you so much? Were you so vocal when the Germans and French armed the tribes of Rwanda and stood back whilst their facilitated genocide happened?

Would you have been outraged when the Congolese decimated the populations of Central Africa?

Or is this because the Jewish people offend you so much?

 

[dawaxman]

Apologies, I have another thing to add... what is it about this super complex situation that uninformed people feel so comfortable forming such a clear opinion on?

Do you all have opinions on how rocket scientists should plan rocket launches? Or how sewage systems should be implemented in developing countries? Or do you suggest that the experts should be the ones with an opinion and you'll keep your uninformed views to yourself?

What level of education have you done here to make you so sure of your view? Genuine question.... have you done anymore than read an article on the BBC and watch some tiktoks? And off the back of that, you've figured out that Israel should simply do x,y,z?

Does that not ring alarm bells that maybe, just maybe, you don't have a fudging clue???

 

[Grays_1890]

Apologies, I have another thing to add... what is it about this super complex situation that uninformed people feel so comfortable forming such a clear opinion on?

Do you all have opinions on how rocket scientists should plan rocket launches? Or how sewage systems should be implemented in developing countries? Or do you suggest that the experts should be the ones with an opinion and you'll keep your uninformed views to yourself?

What level of education have you done here to make you so sure of your view? Genuine question.... have you done anymore than read an article on the BBC and watch some tiktoks? And off the back of that, you've figured out that Israel should simply do x,y,z?

Does that not ring alarm bells that maybe, just maybe, you don't have a fudging clue???

Two nations bombarding the hell out of each other for the best part of 100 years now is hardly showing the kind of intellect or foresight to be compared to high academics such as rocket scientists.

 

[dawaxman]

Two nations bombarding the hell out of each other for the best part of 100 years now is hardly showing the kind of intellect or foresight to be compared to high academics such as rocket scientists.

Just another example of how ill-informed you are about this, and yet you keep posting...

Spend time learning before you make yourself look even more stupid

 

[AuroRaman]

Apologies, I have another thing to add... what is it about this super complex situation that uninformed people feel so comfortable forming such a clear opinion on?

Do you all have opinions on how rocket scientists should plan rocket launches? Or how sewage systems should be implemented in developing countries? Or do you suggest that the experts should be the ones with an opinion and you'll keep your uninformed views to yourself?

What level of education have you done here to make you so sure of your view? Genuine question.... have you done anymore than read an article on the BBC and watch some tiktoks? And off the back of that, you've figured out that Israel should simply do x,y,z?

Does that not ring alarm bells that maybe, just maybe, you don't have a fudging clue???

The BBC have shown wall-to-wall coverage of a hugely dominant Israeli viewpoint. The pro-Israel stance is prevalent in Western media. Calling people anti-Semitic baselessly is a dingdong move and negates anything else you have offered in this thread.

 

[Grays_1890]

Just another example of how ill-informed you are about this, and yet you keep posting...

Spend time learning before you make yourself look even more stupid

You compared political leaders who have made the same mistakes time and time again only to create a greater divide with rocket scientists whilst trying to coat off people having a civil conversation on a forum.

 

[dawaxman]

The BBC have shown wall-to-wall coverage of a hugely dominant Israeli viewpoint. The pro-Israel stance is prevalent in Western media. Calling people anti-Semitic baselessly is a dingdong move and negates anything else you have offered in this thread.

Right you are:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60083325.amp

But call me a dingdong

 

[Gutter Boy]

It interesting how football has had to side with Hamas, i.e. not been able to express condolences like they would usually do in situations like this, because of who the paymasters of the game are now.

 

[dawaxman]

You compared political leaders who have made the same mistakes time and time again only to create a greater divide with rocket scientists whilst trying to coat off people having a civil conversation on a forum.

No I didn't...I compared the nuance and level of expertise you need to understand rocket science to the middle East situation.

And if you're being civil, you'd acknowledge that this means more to some people than others

 

[Grays_1890]

No I didn't...I compared the nuance and level of expertise you need to understand rocket science to the middle East situation.

And if you're being civil, you'd acknowledge that this means more to some people than others

As a Jew whose dad spent alot ofnhisnlife in Israel I can tell you it means alot to me.

It doesn't mean that I am blind in thinking that just because of the gravity of Hamas' actions at the weekend that I think Israel have acted or continue to act in total innocence. I also wouldn't call the handling of the situation over the years as expert or without fault.

I don't think there is much difference between terrorism and inhumanity and Israel as treading a fine line on the later

 

[dawaxman]

As a Jew whose dad spent alot ofnhisnlife in Israel I can tell you it means alot to me.

It doesn't mean that I am blind in thinking that just because of the gravity of Hamas' actions at the weekend that I think Israel have acted or continue to act in total innocence. I also wouldn't call the handling of the situation over the years as expert or without fault.

I don't think there is much difference between terrorism and inhumanity and Israel as treading a fine line on the later

On all of these points we can agree

BUT, this current situation is Hamas vs Jews

It's NOT Israel vs Palestine

On a positive note, have you seen this:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyMekYLva2i/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

[Grays_1890]

On a positive note, have you seen this:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyMekYLva2i/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

My hope is this kind of thing comes to the fore and people force change. Naive as fcuk I know but those in power can't be trusted to do it.

 

[AuroRaman]

Right you are:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60083325.amp

But call me a dingdong

I didn’t call you a dingdong, I said it was a dingdong move. What does that article have to do with you calling others anti-Semitic for having a discussion and differing opinions on this?

The BBC doesn’t highlight attacks on Palestinian people unless there is ongoing conflict in the same manner as attacks on Israel. Whilst they try to remain impartial it’s certainly not balanced reporting. That was the point I was attempting to make which obviously didn’t translate.

 

[Craig_J]

Do any of you know how small Israel is compared to the rest of the Middle East? How much natural resources it had when it was given to the Jews back in 1948 following the holocaust? (The answer is none... it was a desert and Israel turned it into the land of milk and honey)

You have to ask yourself why there is so much of a struggle when there is plenty of space for everyone across the Middle East (don't give me the "right of ownership" argument as all land has been "owned" by so many different peoples in all parts of this planet...)

Do you realise that civilian suffering in Gaza is a very sad by-product of this ongoing conflict because the terrorists fire rockets from schools and hospitals, and hide their terrorists in civilian homes because they know the Israelis don't want to hurt the innocent civilians. This is terrorism on a scale which people in the UK have zero concept of... but you yell from the rooftops having never seen the truth, spouting brick you've seen on tiktok

When the terrorist organisation Hamas attacked Israel this week, it was to purposely harm innocent civilians. If they wanted to 'fix' the situation, they could have attacked the Israeli army bases etc, but they didn't and that's because, as Netanyahu (the leftist hipsters who have never entered the Middle East's favourite panto villain) said many years ago:

"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more ‎violence. If the Jews put ‎down their weapons ‎today, there would be no ‎more Israel"

Let me be clear on my stance here, and call me out all you want, but you better have facts and ideally first hand knowledge to support you, otherwise you're just a pawn who has been tricked by Corbynite propaganda:


"I love Israel

I love that there are people there of all religions, and we all shop together, stand together, relax together

I've been in Israel during Islamic holidays and spent the day in the company of people celebrating

I've stayed with the Bedouins in their camps

I've worked on a Kibbutz

I've been in Israel many times during Yom Hazikaron - when the siren goes off and the whole country stops, people get out of their cars in the middle of the motorways, to observe a minutes silence for those killed in conflict

I've been in Israel during Yom Hashoah

I've visited Yad Vashem

I've grown used to walking in and out of shopping malls and having my pockets checked; my wife and mother having their handbags checked for IEDs

I have known what IED stands for since I was a child

I have seen soldiers walking the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with guns - there to protect the civilians. I don't flinch when I see guns now - I'm used to it

I feel a huge affinity to the country

I've been in hundreds of Israeli homes - all of which have a Miklut - a windowless safe room to go to when the bombs come

I've seen the Iron Dome in action

I've been near the border of Israel and Gaza, I've been near the border of the West Bank, I've been near the parts of Jerusalem that it's not safe to go

All of these places - if I went too far, I'd be killed for my religion

The people in these places hate me

My parents' grandparents were part of the pogroms

I've been the victim of anti-semitism many times and I've witnessed anti-semitism thousands of times - in this country

I volunteer for the CST - an organisation that has been set up to keep Jews safe in this country. I do it because it's needed, and it's needed because of the misinformation that has been spread from various people throughout the centuries.

I've had to intervene and protect my fellow Jews numerous times over the years when they've been verbally or physically attacked. Their religious attire mocked, their clothes spat on, their synagogues desecrated

My brother was handed leaflets about Combat18 when he was at school, at 11 years old

I've been called names as a joke, as a form of abuse, as a way to make me feel different

It's not OK, but for some reason, we're fair game

I don't often tell people I'm Jewish, because I hate the face that people pull, or the intake of breath, or the visible reassessment in attitudes that I have to witness









Israel is my home - the only place where I can be Jewish and proud"

And finally, something that sums up what being a jew in the diaspora is all about:

Whilst it’s fantastic that you’ve had a fantastic time visiting Israel as a Jew - I’ve spoke to various people (all Christian, not Muslim) who said they were appalled at how roughly the soldiers treated the Arab people whilst conducting routine searches.

One was an Anglican priest from Northern Ireland. She spent 6 years there - she was in Tel Aviv when Saddam launched Scud missiles at the city. She was a life long Tory.

But she said the media attacked Corbyn for daring to say that it is a racist endeavour. After 6 years she said the roads are segregated, soldiers torment and abuse Arabs, treat them like animals.

She said as far as she’s concerned - as a Christian priest with a love for ‘The Holy Land’ - that he’s right. The state of Israel is a racist endeavour.

I’m also sorry to hear that you experienced anti-semitism in the UK (perhaps elsewhere if you elaborated further)? Obviously that’s completely unacceptable

But Jews are not fair game. That would be 100% antiemetic

The state of Israel is fair game. Because it is a country - not a race or religion - and a country that is a member of the UN despite repeatedly flouting international law.

Countries need to be held to account.

As an example Hungary and Russia both suffered heavily during WW2. Both in recent years have demonstrated fascist tendencies.

It is not racist to Hungarians, Russians to compare them to fascist despite their victimisation in world war 2.

Israel is not Judaism overall - nor is it an ethnic group. It is a country that’s repeatedly flouted human rights

 

[Craig_J]

And just look now!

Israel have cut off the water supply to 600,000 people.

Collective punishment. Another war crime. Just can’t help themselves

 

[dawaxman]

Whilst it’s fantastic that you’ve had a fantastic time visiting Israel as a Jew - I’ve spoke to various people (all Christian, not Muslim) who said they were appalled at how roughly the soldiers treated the Arab people whilst conducting routine searches.

One was an Anglican priest from Northern Ireland. She spent 6 years there - she was in Tel Aviv when Saddam launched Scud missiles at the city. She was a life long Tory.

But she said the media attacked Corbyn for daring to say that it is a racist endeavour. After 6 years she said the roads are segregated, soldiers torment and abuse Arabs, treat them like animals.

She said as far as she’s concerned - as a Christian priest with a love for ‘The Holy Land’ - that he’s right. The state of Israel is a racist endeavour.

I’m also sorry to hear that you experienced anti-semitism in the UK (perhaps elsewhere if you elaborated further)? Obviously that’s completely unacceptable

But Jews are not fair game. That would be 100% antiemetic

The state of Israel is fair game. Because it is a country - not a race or religion - and a country that is a member of the UN despite repeatedly flouting international law.

Countries need to be held to account.

As an example Hungary and Russia both suffered heavily during WW2. Both in recent years have demonstrated fascist tendencies.

It is not racist to Hungarians, Russians to compare them to fascist despite their victimisation in world war 2.

Israel is not Judaism overall - nor is it an ethnic group. It is a country that’s repeatedly flouted human rights

The description you've offered from your friend/s is nothing I've encountered and I've been there multiple times per year over the last 30+ years... so I can't accept that account I'm afraid. I'm not overtly Jewish, so my experience would be the same as any other person there

As to your other point, this is the bit that is impossible to explain to any non-Jew... and even some Jews....

Israel is the only Jewish state, it's the only place I have if/when we're no longer welcome in the country we're currently living. And no, I'm not being dramatic... the pogroms happened within the last 150 years and the holocaust in the last 80 years. My Jewish identity and the vast majority of other Jews is wrapped up in what you call, just a country.

It's not the same for Christians or Muslims or Hindus as there are many, many countries whose main/only religion is theirs

Israel is the only Jewish nation on this planet

In the UK, Jewish people make up less than 0.5% of the population. Similar numbers in USA and Australia.....

That is why this is so emotive

Hope you can try to understand that

 

[monkeybarry]

Let me ask you a question about Hamas; do you genuinely believe that Hamas is acting in the interests of the Palestinian people?
That's a VERY important question to answer.

I don't have anywhere near a well enough educated answer to that.
That is a little simplistic, but based on the activities in and coming out of the West Bank, Hamas do not represent the interests of the Palestinian people.

Whether they represent the interests (or will) of the people of Gaza is more difficult to answer. Hamas clearly represent the interests of Hamas and of what Hamas considers a religious ideology (IE the eradication of Israel. I don't actually know if that extends to eradication of the Jews, or just of Israel. I probably should know that). Whether that is the interest of, or will of, Gaza people (Gazians?), I have absolutely no idea.
I don't consider the 18 year "election" to be an indicator.

Again, it is almost certainly simplistic, but the logical (not necessarily sensible) solution would be for the half of the world that doesn't recognise Palestine as a Sovereign State to recognise them and work with them to ensure an election of internationally recognised standard is undertaken.
However, that will almost certainly result in Hamas coming to power across in Palestine (whether by vote or by bomb, much like ISIS etc have elsewhere) either at the election or afterwards.

There is no solution other than scorchered earth.
Hamas (and any other synonym for religious ideation manifesting itself in violence - whether by terrorist group or sovereign state; often a fine line between the two) are clearly disgusting by western standards (until the west actually examines itself) - but they consider their actions as justified by a fairy story. As does Israel. Both are wrong. Or right. Depending on political/religious views.

We pretend like this is a modern world problem. It isn't. It's a fight over a piece of land. If they can't agree to act reasonably towards eachotherother (in whatever method), maybe neither should be allowed the land. Make it a religious theme park. They clearly can't be trusted to share.