Redknapp Vs AVB vs Jol

[The Moonlit Knight]

But when those players weren't gettable who was next on the list? I remember him stating that he wanted Tevez too, but when he wasn't gettable who was the next target? Saha?

This summer we've reportedly and seemingly moved from David Villa to Benteke to Soldado in weeks when the first two of those didn't pan out.

I can't remember something like that happening under Redknapp, any manager can draw up a list of players they want that are just at the edge between plausible and impossible and have a good few players on there.



I agree that they are all good managers.

I do wonder how Redknapp was able to spend £40-45m on Defoe, Palacios, Keane and Chimbonda in his first transfer window followed by another £25m+ on Crouch, Bassong, Kranjcar and the Kyles in his second transfer window without the true backing of Levy and the board. I also wonder how much we would have spent if they had backed him...

It's not about spending money that you have. It's about spending money against potential future success/earnings. That is backing a Manager. We've done it this season and that's the first season we've done it since 05/06 and even this is under the proviso we aren't selling Bale. All other transfer activities were funded by player sales and we had cash in the bank.

We qualified for the Champion's League and brickloads from it. Our net spend from 2008 to the opening transfer window of 2013? Under £10m. It's a fantastic achievement from Redknapp AND AVB last season, to maintain us in the top six when we aren't even spending the profit with generated from competitions. The sticking block to this is the price to success of course, when it comes to bonuses and salaries. I think it's that what has hurt us, but then I also believe that is how we get players to sign for us on lower wages. We probably have good reward conditions in their contracts.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

11 votes in the poll so far and yet not one for Redknapp?, strange seeing as there are those who are kissing his arse

My favourite period was under Redknapp purely because the lovely football we played at times. Even when some of our more idiotic fans were trying to claim we were too direct when Crouch played we still played it mainly on the deck and played lovely stuff for 70% of the matches. But I voted AVB because you have to back the Manager in charge and hope for the future. I just hope the football we play this coming season is an improvement on that of last season. I think my hopes have a base because I felt we definitely played more attractive football the second half of last season compared to the first and I am looking forward to seeing that trend continue.

 

[sebse]

Is that what you're basing Redknapps whole tenure on? The fact we got to the last 8 of the CL? :lol:

Yet he then failed to get us to that very competition two years in a row? I'm not going to get into any arguments, I liked Redknapp when he was here, he got us playing the best football I have seen us play in my lifetime but you can't bring that last 8 of CL thing up as a basis to his "success", he also got us fudged over by relegated portsmouth side in an FA Cup Semi final, not to mention the 5-1 embarassment to Chelsea.

Is that what you're basing Redknapps whole tenure on? The fact we got to the last 8 of the CL? :lol:

Yet he then failed to get us to that very competition two years in a row? I'm not going to get into any arguments, I liked Redknapp when he was here, he got us playing the best football I have seen us play in my lifetime but you can't bring that last 8 of CL thing up as a basis to his "success", he also got us fudged over by relegated portsmouth side in an FA Cup Semi final, not to mention the 5-1 embarassment to Chelsea.

In this respect I think Redknapp was for sure our most successful recent manager - who got people talking about Spurs title chances - never before in my lifetime were the words title and spurs uttered together!

To give the man and his team some due respect - the season we finished outside the top four was considered by many, their favorite because of our liaisons with the Milan sides, plus some other breathtaking champions league encounters. The magic was back at the Lane.

He then went onto bring us fourth, where no mercy was apparent in the ridiculous fact that Bayern did not take the European crown, that Drogba used his otherworldly power to evade fate - the unthinkable position of Chelsea being outside the Elite. So this was truly unlucky, although some may argue we should have gotten to unparalleled heights of 3rd.

We should also be grateful in his 'tenure' that he showed you the best Spurs football of your life. That in itself is a remarkable achievement - one that most posters on here seem to share the view of.

I seem to remember that the loss to Portsmouth was an unlucky one aswell, where we dominated proceedings. So it was through no lack of trying there.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

In this respect I think Redknapp was for sure our most successful recent manager - who got people talking about Spurs title chances - never before in my lifetime were the words title and spurs uttered together!

To give the man and his team some due respect - the season we finished outside the top four was considered by many, their favorite because of our liaisons with the Milan sides, plus some other breathtaking champions league encounters. The magic was back at the Lane.

He then went onto bring us fourth, where no mercy was apparent in the ridiculous fact that Bayern did not take the European crown, that Drogba used his otherworldly power to evade fate - the unthinkable position of Chelsea being outside the Elite. So this was truly unlucky, although some may argue we should have gotten to unparalleled heights of 3rd.

We should also be grateful in his 'tenure' that he showed you the best Spurs football of your life. That in itself is a remarkable achievement - one that most posters on here seem to share the view of.

I seem to remember that the loss to Portsmouth was an unlucky one aswell, where we dominated proceedings. So it was through no lack of trying there.

We never had much luck under Redknapp, we had even less under Jol.

There are two over riding memories that I will have of the Redknapp era.

1) That we still managed to finish 5th despite a CL campaign to the QF. I was sure when we qualified for the CL that we wouldn't make it past the group stage and that our league form would take a hammering due to being inexperienced at handling two major competitions at the same time.

2) We got to the Champion's League and then failed to invest. The year after was especially galling because rather than invest the Champion's League money into the squad we ended up making a £27m PROFIT on player sales and hardly invested at all. The end result was still finishing 4th but failing to qualify for the CL by a measly one point. I guess you could argue that Levy got it spot on with that one though, because the CL failure was down to bad luck but if we had just invested sooner and better then we would have had CL football last season too.

 

[El Guepardo]

I think each manager was a perfect choice for their time at the club.

Jol may have arrived as a lucky strike, as number 2 to Santini. He came across as a very likeable guy, in spite of or perhaps because of his media presence and his sayings, who could forget his reported discussion with a linesman in which he asked if he could think that the referee was an idiot?

Playing wise, he had the side playing entertaining football albeit with defensive frailties. We came very close to the CL but for Lasagne Gate and he led us to Europe for the first time in several years..cueing choruses of 'I love Martin Jol, gonna lead the boys in to Europe baby', he brought an element of belief to the side and helped awaken our club from its slumber.

Sadly, he took a fall, a far too public fall, and though perhaps it was merited given the collapse that the side had taken it ended a love affair between the White Hart Lane faithful and this Dutch, bear hugging, hero.

Ramos came and went, leaving a seemingly relegation bound Spurs behind him. Redknapp was the perfect choice to replace him, even if his appointment wasn't met warmly by all fans. Redknapp was a manager who achieved results by getting the best out of the players around him. He led us away from relegation and nearly achieved a place in Europe which would have been some achievement. The only criticism from that season was how he failed to recognise the Europa League as being a competition that we'd like to win. We had an excellent chance to do so, I think, but picking reserves v Shakhtar caused us to suffer defeat.

This was soon forgotten as he steered us in to the top 4. He had the side playing great football but this was often born from luck, rather than judgment. The end of the season saw us beat both Chelsea and Arsenal as a consequence of Bale being moved up from left back to left wing..:why? Palacios's suspension after he was carded in the FA Cup Semi v Portsmouth. That suspension saw Modric moved in to the centre, vacating the left side of midfield.

In terms of the CL, great achievement to get the last 8. And I'll always be thankful for that.

He was a manager who seemed to believe in playing football the simple way. Rumoured to give Pavlyuchenko a note saying 'run around a bit'. He was no nonsense, no fancy dan attitude, square pegs in square holes kinda manager.

His downfall came as the last couple of seasons saw spectacular collapses. He seemed to take his eye off the ball either because of court cases, England jobs or perhaps other reasons. Ultimately he appeared to be self orientated and so the love for him dissipated and he was moved on. His transfer business is the last point. He seemed to buy players for the here and now, often referred to as journeymen, on high wages but low fees who would do a job for him for a season or two, allowing him to potentially bask in glory for the present moment but not much good in to the longer term. His players were like a sticky plaster to a gaping wound, holding back the blood momentarily but rarely the long term solution.

As Redknapp went, AVB came in. AVB was said to be in the last chance saloon, having had time at Chelsea cut short as he had apparently created rifts in the squad, alienating Lampard and Terry by trying to seemingly ease them out of the team. He lost the battle at Chelsea but we gave him another chance in the Premier League.

Since his arrival, we appear to be a more solid team. A team that has greater resilience than before and can bounce back at teams. We have signed players that a few years back we wouldn't have even been realistically linked with. He seems to have learned from his mistakes at Chelsea and gradually eased Brad out when Lloris was signed, rather than dumping him as soon as Hugo arrived.

I think he is still learning. He made mistakes last season, trying to play a high line on occasion with Brad in goal and Gallas in the back line. I think his brand of football is less exciting but that the resilience that he has instilled in the team has made us more effective, hence a highest ever Premiership points total, for the club. I do think Bale had a lot to do with that but perhaps that was part of AVB's tactic. Anyway, this season is the true test of his ability. He has had a season to make his mark on the side, to bring in the players that he wants. Now what can he achieve? We will have more answers about the success of AVB's tenure at the club at the end if this season than now but I have a good feeling about this year.

So overall, I think they have each been right for the time but I'd have to lean towards supporting AVB out of the three and I hope he proves me right, to have selected him, over the course of the next season.

 

[Baleforce]

they've all taken us up a notch, we got lucky that Jol was there when Santini fudged off but both Redknapp and AVB were 100% the right appointment

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

I think each manager was a perfect choice for their time at the club.

Jol may have arrived as a lucky strike, as number 2 to Santini. He came across as a very likeable guy, in spite of or perhaps because of his media presence and his sayings, who could forget his reported discussion with a linesman in which he asked if he could think that the referee was an idiot?

Playing wise, he had the side playing entertaining football albeit with defensive frailties. We came very close to the CL but for Lasagne Gate and he led us to Europe for the first time in several years..cueing choruses of 'I love Martin Jol, gonna lead the boys in to Europe baby', he brought an element of belief to the side and helped awaken our club from its slumber.

Sadly, he took a fall, a far too public fall, and though perhaps it was merited given the collapse that the side had taken it ended a love affair between the White Hart Lane faithful and this Dutch, bear hugging, hero.

Ramos came and went, leaving a seemingly relegation bound Spurs behind him. Redknapp was the perfect choice to replace him, even if his appointment wasn't met warmly by all fans. Redknapp was a manager who achieved results by getting the best out of the players around him. He led us away from relegation and nearly achieved a place in Europe which would have been some achievement. The only criticism from that season was how he failed to recognise the Europa League as being a competition that we'd like to win. We had an excellent chance to do so, I think, but picking reserves v Shakhtar caused us to suffer defeat.

This was soon forgotten as he steered us in to the top 4. He had the side playing great football but this was often born from luck, rather than judgment. The end of the season saw us beat both Chelsea and Arsenal as a consequence of Bale being moved up from left back to left wing..:why? Palacios's suspension after he was carded in the FA Cup Semi v Portsmouth. That suspension saw Modric moved in to the centre, vacating the left side of midfield.

In terms of the CL, great achievement to get the last 8. And I'll always be thankful for that.

He was a manager who seemed to believe in playing football the simple way. Rumoured to give Pavlyuchenko a note saying 'run around a bit'. He was no nonsense, no fancy dan attitude, square pegs in square holes kinda manager.

His downfall came as the last couple of seasons saw spectacular collapses. He seemed to take his eye off the ball either because of court cases, England jobs or perhaps other reasons. Ultimately he appeared to be self orientated and so the love for him dissipated and he was moved on. His transfer business is the last point. He seemed to buy players for the here and now, often referred to as journeymen, on high wages but low fees who would do a job for him for a season or two, allowing him to potentially bask in glory for the present moment but not much good in to the longer term. His players were like a sticky plaster to a gaping wound, holding back the blood momentarily but rarely the long term solution.

As Redknapp went, AVB came in. AVB was said to be in the last chance saloon, having had time at Chelsea cut short as he had apparently created rifts in the squad, alienating Lampard and Terry by trying to seemingly ease them out of the team. He lost the battle at Chelsea but we gave him another chance in the Premier League.

Since his arrival, we appear to be a more solid team. A team that has greater resilience than before and can bounce back at teams. We have signed players that a few years back we wouldn't have even been realistically linked with. He seems to have learned from his mistakes at Chelsea and gradually eased Brad out when Lloris was signed, rather than dumping him as soon as Hugo arrived.

I think he is still learning. He made mistakes last season, trying to play a high line on occasion with Brad in goal and Gallas in the back line. I think his brand of football is less exciting but that the resilience that he has instilled in the team has made us more effective, hence a highest ever Premiership points total, for the club. I do think Bale had a lot to do with that but perhaps that was part of AVB's tactic. Anyway, this season is the true test of his ability. He has had a season to make his mark on the side, to bring in the players that he wants. Now what can he achieve? We will have more answers about the success of AVB's tenure at the club at the end if this season than now but I have a good feeling about this year.

So overall, I think they have each been right for the time but I'd have to lean towards supporting AVB out of the three and I hope he proves me right, to have selected him, over the course of the next season.

For me both of the "collapses" under Redknapp were down to lack of squad investment in the transfer windows, ESPECIALLY January. The back up player simply weren't good enough and the first team players ran out of steam. We also lacked key cover in certain areas that was never addressed until this transfer window (natural wide player for Lennon). Under Redknapp our first XI's were good enough for what we wanted to achieve, but the squad never was. And that was his biggest failure. Whether it was of his own making we'll never know.

 

[braineclipse]

It's not about spending money that you have. It's about spending money against potential future success/earnings. That is backing a Manager. We've done it this season and that's the first season we've done it since 05/06 and even this is under the proviso we aren't selling Bale. All other transfer activities were funded by player sales and we had cash in the bank.

We qualified for the Champion's League and brickloads from it. Our net spend from 2008 to the opening transfer window of 2013? Under £10m. It's a fantastic achievement from Redknapp AND AVB last season, to maintain us in the top six when we aren't even spending the profit with generated from competitions. The sticking block to this is the price to success of course, when it comes to bonuses and salaries. I think it's that what has hurt us, but then I also believe that is how we get players to sign for us on lower wages. We probably have good reward conditions in their contracts.

Going somewhat off topic, apologies to everyone else.

We have different definitions of what it means to back a manager.

Accepting your statement that we spent against potential future success/earnings in 05/06, what do we do when that success didn't come as we hoped for? Against what do we then invest when Redknapp takes over?

Have you included agent fees in your overall net spend calculations? I remember a financial report having us down as spending almost £10m in a single season on agent fees under Redknapp. Surely that should factor in to the calculations?

We never had much luck under Redknapp, we had even less under Jol.

There are two over riding memories that I will have of the Redknapp era.

1) That we still managed to finish 5th despite a CL campaign to the QF. I was sure when we qualified for the CL that we wouldn't make it past the group stage and that our league form would take a hammering due to being inexperienced at handling two major competitions at the same time.

2) We got to the Champion's League and then failed to invest. The year after was especially galling because rather than invest the Champion's League money into the squad we ended up making a £27m PROFIT on player sales and hardly invested at all. The end result was still finishing 4th but failing to qualify for the CL by a measly one point. I guess you could argue that Levy got it spot on with that one though, because the CL failure was down to bad luck but if we had just invested sooner and better then we would have had CL football last season too.

We had an approximate £20m net transfer spend the season we qualified for the CL, the financial reports showed no significant profit made after that season. Please show me your source to this alleged CL money that we had that we failed to invest.

I think we also considerably increased our wages that season. The year after that when we were no longer in the CL surely something had to give?

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Going somewhat off topic, apologies to everyone else.

We have different definitions of what it means to back a manager.

Accepting your statement that we spent against potential future success/earnings in 05/06, what do we do when that success didn't come as we hoped for? Against what do we then invest when Redknapp takes over?

Have you included agent fees in your overall net spend calculations? I remember a financial report having us down as spending almost £10m in a single season on agent fees under Redknapp. Surely that should factor in to the calculations?



We had an approximate £20m net transfer spend the season we qualified for the CL, the financial reports showed no significant profit made after that season. Please show me your source to this alleged CL money that we had that we failed to invest.

I think we also considerably increased our wages that season. The year after that when we were no longer in the CL surely something had to give?

Agent fees are broken down in the accounts, and set apart from the transfer fee. So when you get a transfer fee of £2m, the agency fees are included in that £2m and then in the accounts, they are split out.

I already mentioned the increase in wages (likely to be bonuses rather than net wage increase).

I'd be interested in where you get the £20m net spend from for the season after we earned the CL money? I may be wrong, but I thought the only player we purchased was Parker. Friedel didn't cost us anything, and I guess we may have spent some cash on some youngsters that I am not aware of but I'd be shocked if it was £14m worth, let alone the recouping of the £27m of talent we flogged that year.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Speaking of agency fees, a little bit of ITK I do have is that we're going to smash our record on agency fees this year! Levy always pays the agents big, it's how we've attracted some decent names in recent years.

 

[iggy1969]

I personally couldn't care less how we play. If we win games then we win games.

Really pains me to see quotes like this from a Spurs fan. Doesn't seem all that rare nowadays, though.

 

[braineclipse]

Agent fees are broken down in the accounts, and set apart from the transfer fee. So when you get a transfer fee of £2m, the agency fees are included in that £2m and then in the accounts, they are split out.

I already mentioned the increase in wages (likely to be bonuses rather than net wage increase).

I'd be interested in where you get the £20m net spend from for the season after we earned the CL money? I may be wrong, but I thought the only player we purchased was Parker. Friedel didn't cost us anything, and I guess we may have spent some cash on some youngsters that I am not aware of but I'd be shocked if it was £14m worth, let alone the recouping of the £27m of talent we flogged that year.

So you're saying your calculations included agent fees? Where did you get the transfer fees from?

There were bonuses for sure, but the signings of VdV, Gallas, Sandro and Pienaar along with some new contracts probably meant a significant increase (I'm guessing 200k p/w+) in the base wages too considering that we sold very few first team players that season. That probably left us with a need for a significant wage reduction the season after our CL campaign.

I saying (apparently not very clearly) that we had a £20m-ish net spend the season we were in the CL (10/11). Friedel, Parker and Ade on loan along with the sales were the season after that.

 

[Pirate55]

Out of curiosity what words would you use to describe our football during the mid to late '90s and early '00s on the scale that has our current football described as absolutely turgid and dreadful?

A fair point. However, we're you happy with the football we played at home last season? Too many times we played two defensive midfielders against even the lesser teams, sat back on single goal leads, which often cost us dearly, and too often relied on a bit of Bale genius to get us out of trouble. We were poor at set pieces both in attack and defence and AVB couldn't get Ade to play like he did the season before.

I don't want to judge AVB yet. At the end of this season we will see if he is the Messiah that some on here think. Once he has got his own players and team together, we will see how the season pans out. I am hopeful but not altogether confident, based on what I have seen so far.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

So you're saying your calculations included agent fees? Where did you get the transfer fees from?

There were bonuses for sure, but the signings of VdV, Gallas, Sandro and Pienaar along with some new contracts probably meant a significant increase (I'm guessing 200k p/w+) in the base wages too considering that we sold very few first team players that season. That probably left us with a need for a significant wage reduction the season after our CL campaign.

I saying (apparently not very clearly) that we had a £20m-ish net spend the season we were in the CL (10/11). Friedel, Parker and Ade on loan along with the sales were the season after that.

OK, we're getting our wires crossed then because I am talking about the spend of the £30m we earned from that Champion's League run. It's only this year we seem to be spending it.

Not my calculations, just the way it works. I know that for a fact. We may pass the fees onto the agents, but we damn make sure we get them covered in the transfer fees recouped and when we buy players the overall fee includes the agencies fees.

 

[braineclipse]

OK, we're getting our wires crossed then because I am talking about the spend of the £30m we earned from that Champion's League run. It's only this year we seem to be spending it.

Not my calculations, just the way it works. I know that for a fact. We may pass the fees onto the agents, but we damn make sure we get them covered in the transfer fees recouped and when we buy players the overall fee includes the agencies fees.

What I'm saying is that the financial reports from that CL season didn't show a £30m profit. Please show me your source for your claim if you disagree.

And why would there be a £30m earned from that CL run? We had a £20m net transfer spend. A guesstimated (at best) £200k p/w or £10m increase in our wage budget and the additional bonuses you already mentioned. Where's the profit? To me it seems that we already spent it the summer before the CL run (summer of 2010). Unless you can show me some numbers from somewhere showing that we actually made a profit close to what you're stating.

If they're not your calculations, do you mind linking to your source?

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

What I'm saying is that the financial reports from that CL season didn't show a £30m profit. Please show me your source for your claim if you disagree.

And why would there be a £30m earned from that CL run? We had a £20m net transfer spend. A guesstimated (at best) £200k p/w or £10m increase in our wage budget and the additional bonuses you already mentioned. Where's the profit? To me it seems that we already spent it the summer before the CL run (summer of 2010). Unless you can show me some numbers from somewhere showing that we actually made a profit close to what you're stating.

If they're not your calculations, do you mind linking to your source?

They're my calculations based on the fees reported at the time of purchases and sales of players. I'm still not sure where you are getting the £20m from either. Sandro £6m, Van Der Vaart £8m, Pienaar £2m, Khumalo £1m. We sold Taarabt for £1m.
Again I'd state that Spurs should have £20m a year to spend regardless of outgoings, due to reward, TV and sponsorship. That is of course unless the club are lying to us about the turnover ratio which is very possible.

 

[diego_maradona]

I remember watching that 5-0 mauling of Saudi Sportswashing Machine and thinking, I don't think we've had it so good in my lifetime. What a team. Fast. Dynamic. Powerful. Lovely balance. A real joy to watch. Unfortunately it went down hill after that, but it was up to that point that one my favourite periods of being a Spurs fan, enjoying the football we were playing.

Under AVB so far, I love seeing the bond of the team. And of course Bale. Never have I seen a player blossom and start to truly fulfil his potential in such a way as he did. Incredible.

With Jol, well I absolutely adore the guy. He perhaps had the toughest job of the lot. To change us from a midtable nothing side to at least pushing for a top 4 finish. Fantastic memories and some real typical Spurs swagger in the way we played with Berbatov, and before Carrick, Davids, King.

3 absolutely fantastic managers for what they all achieved for us in what has been a really incredible period of organic growth. Levy and Enic deserve a lot of credit for steadily building us up to this level in a world where we are competing with incredibly well funded clubs. It's an outstanding achievement and I'm proud of my club.

 

[braineclipse]

They're my calculations based on the fees reported at the time of purchases and sales of players. I'm still not sure where you are getting the £20m from either. Sandro £6m, Van Der Vaart £8m, Pienaar £2m, Khumalo £1m. We sold Taarabt for £1m.
Again I'd state that Spurs should have £20m a year to spend regardless of outgoings, due to reward, TV and sponsorship. That is of course unless the club are lying to us about the turnover ratio which is very possible.

So your calculations add up to a net spend of £16m, but you can't see where I'm getting £20m-ish from? It's an estimate based on the various reported transfer fees. Is the disagreement about those £4m? You're claiming that there was a £30m profit that we didn't spend that I haven't seen you provide any support for.

Going back over 5 years our financial reports have not shown the kind of profits you talk about where we should be able to support a £20m per season net spend. Despite having a significantly lower net spend than you suggest we can manage our debt has gone up without any money being paid out in dividends and yearly financial results averaging out to around break even. So once again I must ask you for your source for this claim.

 

[metalgear]

Harry's the one for romantics like me. He only focused on the positives and exploited it to the max. The biggest problem with him was that he didn't think about the negatives, and when we started fo falter he had no plan B. But he was the perfect coach for that collection of nearly men who wanted to express themselves on the pitch. Aside from the obvious, we didn't have much depth and Harry suffered for it. He was a man for the tabloid press.

avb appeals to my sensible side. A study of the team attributes and dynamics, and all about facts figures and stats. He's a man of statistics and that shows in our football. He's the most sound of the lot but also the most boring for me, especially considering that he has an eye for talent, but doesn't use it for any gambles on the pitch. Bale stood out last season, but I wonder how avb manages this anomaly in his system, because he simply cannot replicate it, but has to rely on bales's genius. He's the man for the Internet age - online discussions etc.

Jol to me is somewhat in between both redknapp and avb, a very regular manager. We had sone talent with berbs and keane, but jol couldnt figure out how to keep a lead with 10 mins remaining. still i rate him highly and definitely a good all rounder, deserving to challenge in the top half of the table. i actually think he will do well in a club with a lot of trust, like liverpool The problem with this is that he can't standout against avb and redknapp, and will soon be forgotten in the Spurs annals for the job he did helping us take a step up with a very young inexperienced team .

 

[Gazza]

AVB - I actually understand what he is trying to do.

But the best job was dont by Martin Jol ... because of the task in hand. It was his platform of getting us from miserable mid table to contending with Arsenal for 4th ... if it wasnt for a dodgy lasagne who knows ...