Politics, politics, politics

[inkpenspur]

Did the Economic crash that happened in the last 80s/early 90s happen because of Labour?

No, but that isn't the point. Every time Labour have left office since they entered government they have departed with the economy in a worse state than when they entered office. You can't argue with that statement of historical fact.

 

[parklane1]

Yeah the Tories have such a rich history of 'bringing people together.' Maggie Thatcher anyone? You think Ramsey MacDonald created the great Depression too? Deluded, my friend, totally deluded.

The only thing that bitch done was split the country between the must haves ( her side) and screw the rest ( the other side).

"LOADS OF MONEY"

 

[glorygloryeze]

No, but that isn't the point. Every time Labour have left office since they entered government they have departed with the economy in a worse state than when they entered office. You can't argue with that statement of historical fact.

As far as i know there are Economic boom and bust cycles. If the Tories were voted out in 1992 (as they probably would have been if The Sun hadn't won it for them) would they have left the country in a worse state than when they got into power in 1979? Many would say yes. The fact that they won that election was due to scaremongering by Murdoch's press and NOT because of Economic competence on their part at that time.
So as far as i'm concerned that invalidates your point.

 

[inkpenspur]

Hold on. My point of historical fact is invalidated because the Tories didn't get chucked out in 1992??? Every departing labour government since the end of WW2 has left an economy in a worse state than when they were voted in. Nothing to do with economic cycles (which apparently glorious Gordon Brown had put an end to!) They spent everyone else's money, borrowed some more and effed it up. If they get in this time round they will take less than 6 months to completely rooster things up again.

 

[THFC]

You couldn't make it up

 

[scaramanga]

Did the Economic crash that happened in the last 80s/early 90s happen because of Labour?

Not all crashes were caused by Labour, but all Labour governments have left us worse off than when they started.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

You may haggle over the the history of 'bringing people together', however he makes a bloody sound point about Labour always crashing the economy and leaving it for others to clear up their mess

Boom and bust is more to do with the nature of capitalism, than anything to do with which party is in government. Look at the GFC, nations with left and right wing governments were all affected by it. Sometimes parties are just plain lucky, as to when they get into government. It was widely predicted that the last general election, was a pretty good one to lose.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Not all crashes were caused by Labour, but all Labour governments have left us worse off than when they started.

Well that is clearly a subjective judgement, isn't it? You are the master of the in-valid generalisation Scara. Just because you do better under the Tories, doesn't equate to every one else doing better as well.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Hold on. My point of historical fact is invalidated because the Tories didn't get chucked out in 1992???

No your main point is that Labour ALWAYS mis-manages the Economy worse than other parties. My counter to that is the late 80s and 90s when the Economy was in a very terribe state under the Tories, whon had been in Government for a decade. I would say that course of Economic management was far worse than anything we have seen since. The crash of 2007/2008 was global and caused by bankers who were playing casino with global money markets and was not directly to do with Labour policy (though i would agree with what some say about how they should have put more away in reserves for a 'rainy day', though would ANY Government have done that anyway? I doubt the Tories would have).

Every departing labour government since the end of WW2 has left an economy in a worse state than when they were voted in. Nothing to do with economic cycles (which apparently glorious Gordon Brown had put an end to!) They spent everyone else's money, borrowed some more and effed it up.

Really? So then tell me what did the Tories do to in the late 80s/early 90s to cause such Economic problems? Were they spending "their own money" then?

If they get in this time round they will take less than 6 months to completely rooster things up again.

I suspect whoever gets in we'll be heading for a crash anyhow, but i refuse to believe that the Tories would be any better generally at managing the Economy than Labour, Lib Dems or anyone else; they can't even meet their own fiscal targets that they set for themselves!
I enjoy reading the partizan posts on here but this claptrap about Labour "always spending everyone else's money" (as though any Government has it's own pocket money that it can use instead of what is raised by taxation etc) is just plain silly.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Boom and bust is more to do with the nature of capitalism, than anything to do with which party is in government. Look at the GFC, nations with left and right wing governments were all affected by it. Sometimes parties are just plain lucky, as to when they get into government. It was widely predicted that the last general election, was a pretty good one to lose.

Exactly, especially the bolded bit

 

[scaramanga]

Well that is clearly a subjective judgement, isn't it? You are the master of the in-valid generalisation Scara. Just because you do better under the Tories, doesn't equate to every one else doing better as well.

I suspect you'll always find a few outliers - especially if you move in the circles of workshy union types.

As this government has shown, as the economy improves all of our lives improve. Millions of lower paid workers are paying less tax than they did before, there are more jobs than there were, inflation and interest rates are under control, etc. It's those who don't have a personal allowance who've been hit the hardest - that needs to be fixed.

 

[the dza]

Does anybody else think that every party has, so far, run a very poor election campaign? Tories has to be the worst, they have gone from "long-term economic plan", to "we'll spend loads more on the NHS coz we love it!" and now it's "The SNP will kill us all!" They can't make any narrative stick and nothing is moving the polls that have been tied since the start of the year. There's a whiff of desperation about their campaign so far.

Labour have been really defensive and cautious, happy to fall over the line in a minority government. Uninspiring to say the least.

The Lib Dems, having put themselves up as to the left of Labour in the previous two elections, are now whoring themselves as the party for the voters with no particular convictions. Pathetic.

It's also interesting to note that nothing so far has really moved the polls. Debates, manifesto releases etc. You get the odd poll that's an outlier and produces a decent lead for Tory/Labour and then things just go back to 1-2 point leads within the MOE. Neck and neck, people can't fully decide who is the most sh1t.

 

[scaramanga]

Does anybody else think that every party has, so far, run a very poor election campaign? Tories has to be the worst, they have gone from "long-term economic plan", to "we'll spend loads more on the NHS coz we love it!" and now it's "The SNP will kill us all!" They can't make any narrative stick and nothing is moving the polls that have been tied since the start of the year. There's a whiff of desperation about their campaign so far.

Labour have been really defensive and cautious, happy to fall over the line in a minority government. Uninspiring to say the least.

The Lib Dems, having put themselves up as to the left of Labour in the previous two elections, are now whoring themselves as the party for the voters with no particular convictions. Pathetic.

It's also interesting to note that nothing so far has really moved the polls. Debates, manifesto releases etc. You get the odd poll that's an outlier and produces a decent lead for Tory/Labour and then things just go back to 1-2 point leads within the MOE. Neck and neck, people can't fully decide who is the most sh1t.

They've all been terrible but I don't think a good campaign would have worked. Since the public has accepted the concept of coalitions people are no longer afraid of voting for silly extremist parties at both ends of the scale. A UKIP vote is safe because the Conservatives will rein them in, a Green vote is safe because Labour, etc.

Until the last government there was a two way fight for the middle and it was working for both parties. Now they find themselves stuck there being flanked by mentals on either side. I genuinely don't think there's much either main party could have done to avoid this.

 

[Baleforce]

yeah, the dilution by the lunatic fringe is fudging it up for everyone

 

[monkeybarry]

This election is just an extended version of the last one - people fed up with the same old cycles and the BS of red or blue.

Last time out the lib dems getting into coalition was always going to make or break them - the next few years will show the true effect
This time out will probably see a similar situation with the SNP - and I won't be surprised if either a. Scotland is no longer part of the union come 2020 or the SNP has become so irrelevant by then they are in the same situation the lib dems are now

 

[SteveAWOL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/590790790101790720

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

This scare campaign devised by Conservative HQ and run by Darth Vader (Murdoch) is laughable, as any extreme measures (if they even exist) from the SNP would be snuffed out by Labour voting with the Tories. Think of Trident, as just one example of this. The Tories and Murdoch really do take the voting public for mugs when they come up with this crap.

 

[the dza]

This scare campaign devised by Conservative HQ and run by Darth Vader (Murdoch) is laughable, as any extreme measures (if they even exist) from the SNP would be snuffed out by Labour voting with the Tories. Think of Trident, as just one example of this. The Tories and Murdoch really do take the voting public for mugs when they come up with this crap.

I think the same thing re. Trident. Labour would vote for it, the Tories would too and that'd be that. The SNP would vote against and we'd get Trident renewed anyway. To me, The SNP don't have a strong hand to play because they have won support (from Labour in Scotland) by promising their voters that they will not deliver a Tory government.

 

[parklane1]

Does anybody else think that every party has, so far, run a very poor election campaign? Tories has to be the worst, they have gone from "long-term economic plan", to "we'll spend loads more on the NHS coz we love it!" and now it's "The SNP will kill us all!" They can't make any narrative stick and nothing is moving the polls that have been tied since the start of the year. There's a whiff of desperation about their campaign so far.

Labour have been really defensive and cautious, happy to fall over the line in a minority government. Uninspiring to say the least.

The Lib Dems, having put themselves up as to the left of Labour in the previous two elections, are now whoring themselves as the party for the voters with no particular convictions. Pathetic.

It's also interesting to note that nothing so far has really moved the polls. Debates, manifesto releases etc. You get the odd poll that's an outlier and produces a decent lead for Tory/Labour and then things just go back to 1-2 point leads within the MOE. Neck and neck, people can't fully decide who is the most sh1t.

Yep, I have said earlier I have never known a time when the different partys was so poor as they are now. Its all sound bites, lies and slagging off the opposition. They are all full of brick.

 

[scaramanga]

This scare campaign devised by Conservative HQ and run by Darth Vader (Murdoch) is laughable, as any extreme measures (if they even exist) from the SNP would be snuffed out by Labour voting with the Tories. Think of Trident, as just one example of this. The Tories and Murdoch really do take the voting public for mugs when they come up with this crap.

I think the same thing re. Trident. Labour would vote for it, the Tories would too and that'd be that. The SNP would vote against and we'd get Trident renewed anyway. To me, The SNP don't have a strong hand to play because they have won support (from Labour in Scotland) by promising their voters that they will not deliver a Tory government.

That's not how it works. Not all votes are free votes for each party to act as they feel on each subject.

There cannot be a Labour government without SNP votes - they're unlikely to be the largest party after the election so Labour will have to buy SNP votes on an issue by issue basis. That means that if the SNP tell Labour they will only approve the budget if Labour orders the slaughter of the first born of everyone earning more than £50k then Labour don't have an option.