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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

elyid said:
We're not allowed to introduce rules purely as an incentive for the finance industry (for example) as it would break anti-competition agreements within the EU. Anything like that would need to be approved, and would not be allowed as it could take business away from other EU countries. (I read a great article about this, will look for it)

So whilst we could reduce Corporation Tax across the board, we can't set specific incentives across industries to boost income just for the UK.

Considering some of the UKs largest industries revolve around intellectual property (i.e. law, media, finance etc.) having control such as that could be worth hundreds of billions a year in the right hands (or more).

I don't know why people *wouldn't* want this, what's the downside?

Though, the current idiots in charge make me wonder if this is just a pipe dream.
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It's not really complex. To have free trade - a good thing it generates prosperity - you need to have an equal playing field. So the EU has to have some laws and controls to allow the worlds largest customs union to work. It's a great thing - no barriers to trade accross a whole continent. When you ask, who wouldn't want this, it is free trade you should be questioning. Of coure it would be sensational if we could break the rules of the EU and still have all its benifits. That is what Leave promised. We'd have it all. But that ain't the truth. You can't have a free trade area where some get special benifits. We already get a great deal - no Euro, a rebate on what we pay in negotiated by Thatcher, we control far more in the EU than most nations. The EU gives the UK a global platform in a lot of things. Medical laws and regulation for example, much of which is set by us, and then followed not just in the EU, but beyond. This benifits our pharamasuiticals industry etc.

The flip side is a diminished UK with no sway over the global stage, that is fighting to keep its nations (scotland and ireland) together. It would effectively be the end of 'Great' Britian. After centries of global strength we'd be back to a peripheral nation. Remainers are nationalists too. We beleive in the UK too. In a UK that prospers and doens't go backwards.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
It's not really complex. To have free trade - a good thing it generates prosperity - you need to have an equal playing field. So the EU has to have some laws and controls to allow the worlds largest customs union to work. It's a great thing - no barriers to trade accross a whole continent. When you ask, who wouldn't want this, it is free trade you should be questioning. Of coure it would be sensational if we could break the rules of the EU and still have all its benifits. That is what Leave promised. We'd have it all. But that ain't the truth. You can't have a free trade area where some get special benifits. We already get a great deal - no Euro, a rebate on what we pay in negotiated by Thatcher, we control far more in the EU than most nations. The EU give the UK a global platform in a lot of things. Medical laws and regulation for example, much of which is set by us, and then followed not just in the EU, but beyond.

The flip side is a diminished UK, that has no sway over the global stage, that is fighting to keep its nations (scotland and ireland) together. Remainers are nationalists too.We beleive in the UK too. In a UK that prospers and doens't go backwards.
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These are interesting points to consider.

Ultimately it probably comes down to my personal preference that I don't believe governments are efficient and that the state should aim to have smaller influence not larger. I also don't think free trade is efficient, deals should be done on value. We don't need sway over the world, we need good quality of life within our borders.

I also would prefer an independent Scotland, Ireland and Wales and am against the NHS so it looks like we having opposing views!

In my mind modern / future politics will see these things as outdated concepts.
 
elyid said:
These are interesting points to consider.

Ultimately it probably comes down to my personal preference that I don't believe governments are efficient and that the state should aim to have smaller influence not larger. I also don't think free trade is efficient, deals should be done on value. We don't need sway over the world, we need good quality of life within our borders.

I also would prefer an independent Scotland, Ireland and Wales and am against the NHS so it looks like we having opposing views!

In my mind modern / future politics will see these things as outdated concepts.
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Free trade is not efficient? What kind of trade is more efficient that free trade? Government intervention in trade is not something I guess you'd like, so free trade seems the best option no? Trade is something the UK does well. We practically started it with our global empire and trade routes. Does the EU reduce our quality of life - working hours directive stops people working too hard, pollution laws stop commerce sacrificing human health, eu clean beaches etc.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Do you think trade, peace and prosperity comes from working with your neighbours or by telling them to do one? That we are the vastly smaller entity in this 'war' means we lose. Your outlook is about 150 years out of date. When Europe was often at war, often competing, and not trading.
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I think peace comes from wealth and wealth comes from beating the competition.

We can't compete with the EU from the inside - it's a rigged deck and it's mainly rigged against us.
 
r-u-s-x said:
I know you are all for free trade but most arnt, with that and mfn we can't control other countries imports, no controls on Ireland then WTO rules say no controls on anyone.
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Sounds fine to me

r-u-s-x said:
Added I would assume Calais would be on the Irish boarder with a one way door (they have a border going in ).
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I don't seal my house against rats, I just don't leave food out for them. I don't get rats in my house.

r-u-s-x said:
Assuming violence doesn't happen immediately whoever thought of the policy will be out pretty quickly imo.
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That would be up to the EU - we wouldn't be the ones putting up a border.
 
scaramanga said:
First one that comes to mind is the Working Time Directive - punishes hard working nations and promotes a very "French" form of laziness.
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We have a waiver. Anyone in the UK can sign a piece of paper and work as hard as they like. So it does not punish us does it?
 
SpurMeUp said:
We have a waiver. Anyone in the UK can sign a piece of paper and work as hard as they like. So it does not punish us does it?
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As an employer, I can't discriminate against employees who won't work overtime, I can't require them to work overtime, I can't require them to sign the waiver.

There are still limits to how much employees can work, even with the waiver.
 
Blackmail May. Trying to hold MPs and the nation to ransom. If you don't vote for my deal the 4th time: election.

A ploy to scare Tories into voting for her so Corbyn doesn't get in? What a terrible descent. May started out okay, but in desperation has become irrational and also immovable. No one can get rid of her. She has nothing to offer. It is a genuine crisis now.
 
scaramanga said:
As an employer, I can't discriminate against employees who won't work overtime, I can't require them to work overtime, I can't require them to sign the waiver.

There are still limits to how much employees can work, even with the waiver.
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To me its a perfect compromise. People who don't want to work long long hours don't have to. People that wish to - can. The EU protects those who value quality of life over work, but allows people who want to work hard to do so. People do need to sleep Scara :)
 
SpurMeUp said:
To me its a perfect compromise. People who don't want to work long long hours don't have to. People that wish to - can. The EU protects those who value quality of life over work, but allows people who want to work hard to do so. People do need to sleep Scara :)
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And employers who need flexible staff can't have them. It's a fudging preposterous rule
 
scaramanga said:
If we don't put up a border, do you think the EU will? I'd very much like to see our government tell them they can stick their bricky deal and that there will be no NI border. Make that statement very publicly and ensure everyone knows that if there's violence again it's the EU's making.
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It wouldn't be. It would be the UK fudging their own citizens in reality.
 
elyid said:
YAlso, we technically don't *have* to enforce a border in Ireland... if Ireland and NI just don't do it who will stop them? (I've lived near Gibraltar before and there were extended periods where neither side policed the border, nobody said/did anything).
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Gibraltar is nothing at all like Northern Ireland. This approach would just cause the EU to play hardball on everything. It is not worth it. It would also trigger a border poll which would pass 60/40 if recent polls are right, and start the break up of the UK. Scotland would probably follow suit.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Funny Uber, Deliveroo seem to be just fine. Never heard of zero hours contracts? And staff who want to be flexible can be - they just sign the waiver.
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They're all pretty much self employed - Uber et al can't make any of them turn up when they want them to.

Zero hour contracts are useful when you have less than 40 hours of work for people, they're useless when you have more.
 
Rorschach said:
Gibraltar is nothing at all like Northern Ireland. This approach would just cause the EU to play hardball on everything. It is not worth it. It would also trigger a border poll which would pass 60/40 if recent polls are right, and start the break up of the UK. Scotland would probably follow suit.
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*Fingers crossed*. Just Wales and the North to go then.
 
elyid said:
These are interesting points to consider.

Ultimately it probably comes down to my personal preference that I don't believe governments are efficient and that the state should aim to have smaller influence not larger. I also don't think free trade is efficient, deals should be done on value. We don't need sway over the world, we need good quality of life within our borders.

I also would prefer an independent Scotland, Ireland and Wales and am against the NHS so it looks like we having opposing views!

In my mind modern / future politics will see these things as outdated concepts.
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You are against the NHS and think it’s an outdated concept?
 
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