Rorschach
Sonny Walters
You'll never get rid of Wales.
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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)
- Thread starter SpurMeUp
- Start date
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Mogg is a disaster capitalist. While there is a path to no deal Brexit he will take it.
elyid
Gerry Armstrong
Sorry, I meant the current EU setup.
We only have Free Trade within the EU, but have no control to negotiate other markets.
This benefits poorer countries that have limited exports, but we get a worse deal with USA, China, Japan etc. as we could negotiate lower rates with them as they want our services cheaper in return. There's also inefficiencies as most of our exports are harder to replicate, yet we're not able to negotiate better tariffs for these.
I would be for worldwide global free trade, just not the current EU-cuckhold setup.
Parklaner81
Steve Hodge
But Mogg indicated he was willing to support May's deal (not sure whether or not he actually did in the end). And my point is that, in reality, there is little realistic prospect of no deal - the EU won't allow it, and our government wouldn't have the balls even if they did. So with that in mind, what exactly is it that they're trying to achieve?
elyid
Gerry Armstrong
Yes! The NHS is so inefficient for a variety of reasons.
Mainly that as it's "free" people use it when they don't really need to -- plus there's no real incentive to operate efficiently. How much did the database that was never used cost, £12 billion? No private company is wasting £12 billion on a database they don't use.
I have visited several hospitals in Spain (operation) and Hungary and the equipment and facilities was 5 star in both cases. In Spain was Sanitas and I felt like Gareth Bale.
This is done on a private plan for those in work (about £800 per year per family, taken from your taxes) or government paid to those on social benefits (with very slightly lower quality care)
FWIW the NHS also has one of the highest birth death rates of Western countries.
The problem is: from my understanding it's almost impossible/insanely expensive to switch over to a new system. Also everyone seems to love it for some reason.
We would because although seems fine to you it won't to the majority....most likely.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Did he vote May's deal today? If so that torpedoes my point. I didn't check the vote. His daddy won't be pleased (unless he is dead and I can't be arsed checking if he is)
As for no deal, the EU will allow it in 2 weeks time. They certainly don't like it, but they can't stop it. I think you are correct on the courage limits of the UK government. They'll do something other than no deal in the next 2 weeks as they don't want their names associated with it, and as far as I can see perception and legacy seems to be more important than the what is best for the UK in their eyes.
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
I guess you are deeply wedded to the idea of leaving the EU. We could look over the value in bringing 550m comsumers to the trade negotiating table vs our 60m but there is no point, as you have made your decision by the sounds of things.
I'd just say, there are a lot of things we can quickly and clearly point to that we'd lose from not being in the EU. Yet we can't quickly and easily outline the benifits we'd gain from leaving the EU. If you can, please do...
Parklaner81
Steve Hodge
I'm not certain. He said he'd back it if the DUP either backed it or abstained - obviously neither of those happened, but I briefly saw a list of the tory rebels earlier and don't recall seeing his name on it (could be wrong though).
Re. no deal: The EU have already taken steps to greatly reduce the likelihood of a no deal by floating the prospect of a long extension (which I'm still not convinced was requested). They couldn't stop it happening if we were hell-bent on it, but short of that they've shown that they're the ones pulling the strings. They will do absolutely everything within their power to prevent it (and with May in charge, that'll be plenty), because for them it's a lose:lose - either it'll be the horror show many claim it will be and they suffer along with us, OR it goes better than widely prophesised, which will be rocket fuel for anti-EU movements across the continent.
They ain't gonna let it happen.
That's not how money works.
That £4.2b didn't just disappear, it was spent. Some people provided those services paid for - they will now have that money and spend it. Others will provide goods and services when they do.
On the basis that most of that money was spent within the UK, then it will have done more good than spaffing it up the EU.
It's the Irish one too.
I was going to label NI a ginger stepchild but I don't think that bothers them so much in Ireland
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
The EU will give the UK every opportunity to avoid the no deal route. Needless to say, it is not in their interest that no deal happens, but the decision to go to straight to no deal is still within the UK's purview. All they have to do is nothing in the next 2 weeks. The EU has shown the escape routes but can't force the UK to take one.
I know your opinion on this but it is a lose/lose IMO. There is no other way to view it from a trade perspective at least.
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SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
Then spend it...but on something where you get a hospital or school or 10 at the end of it! Instead we spend it and get bugger all. Such is the waste of Brexit.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Well no. Your opinion would appear to be that NI is nothing more than a drain on the UK coffers, which it may be. Irish sentiments are more nationalistic rather than financial. That is not the same.
elyid
Gerry Armstrong
Money in the UK is fake anyway, they can just ask the Bank of England to add 4,000,000,000 to a database column.
Bendy Bananas
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However I only just saw the Will Self / Mark Francois clip from a few weeks ago, and MF almost made me change my mind on voting leave. What an idiot.
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Spending it on a state school or hospital is committing to continue throwing money at it in perpetuity. There are few worse things we could do with the money.
I know quite a few people from the South and not a single one of them wants their taxes to pay for NI.
With the insular press getting so caught up in calling this May's deal, people are forgetting it's it's actually the EU's deal that parliament is rejecting as not good enough.
This is the negotiation.
SpurMeUp
Jimmy Cantrell
Money in the UK is fake anyway, they can just ask the Bank of England to add 4,000,000,000 to a database column.
Bendy Bananas
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However I only just saw the Will Self / Mark Francois clip from a few weeks ago, and MF almost made me change my mind on voting leave. What an idiot.
Franky Boil show? I saw that just now. Hilarious!
How are we going to get out this mess then? The fundamental flaw is that Brexit doesn't actually deliver anything (other than emotion). In a practical sense its pointless. It only harms the UK economy (by varying degrees depending on the type of exit, as the Bank of England and our own HM Treasury have outlined in extremely detailed careful work). That is why this process is such a ball ache. Becuase no one want to damage our nation - but that is all Brexit does. Ergo the problems we now face. It's an impossability to deliver wihtout a negative for us.
This truth will out. It's just a case of how long it will take.