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Moussa Sissoko

BrainOfLevy said:
If it’s so not hard, perhaps there’s a reason he’s doing it the way he’s doing it?

And before I go on, let me say that I would also love to win any trophy. When we beat Chelsea in 2008 it was an amazing day.

I just think it’s a massive simplification of what he’s trying to achieve. Oh he said he’d prefer the PL and CL so obviously the players aren’t going to try...it’s a very basic reductive analysis of the situation and not really taking into account a bunch of other factors.

Firstly, what Poch says in the media and what he tells the players behind closed doors are two different things, sometimes massively so. The media efforts are about reducing pressure, controlling the narrative, and reinforcing the messages he wants to reinforce.

There are a couple of things - maybe he has seen the ‘but they won’t be anything until they’ve won something’ narrative creep up a little bit too much for his liking and he wants to make the point that we are on a broader journey to transform the club, the mentality of the squad, where they should be expected to compete, and what they should consider their goals to be.

Maybe in the middle of a massive month with games against top teams and direct rivals, you need to take the pressure off and increase the freedom in a game that is of less importance. He’s taken us to a FA Cup semi final and a League Cup final, so it’s not as if he is throwing the cups. But beating your chest and saying ‘WE MUST WIN!!’ doesn’t always lead to better performance. Sometimes a better motivational tactic is to reduce pressure and increase freedom. Or maybe it could be a million other reasons that he is taking a very obvious decision to spin this line when he doesn’t need to.

But the point about what he says in private is also a massive one. Just read his book. The standards he expects do not drop because of what he says in public. He’s also playing a load of first team players because he expects them to perform. His comment after the match that maybe some players wouldn’t play on Saturday because their standards dropped on Wednesday was telling. He is big on players having to find the hunger and the motivation within themselves because he knows external motivation is fleeting. If any players took the opportunity to try any less against West Ham they aren’t the right players for him.

And again, I just cannot see how this argument that media comments linked to our underperformance when we stormed into a 2-0 lead. It makes no logical sense. The players were obviously motivated enough to perform, but let complacency creep in when they were ahead. But complacency is not the same as thinking the competition is less important from the start - it is a response to a situation that developed in the match. And Foyth switched off for their second - but he was saying before the game he expected Foyth to step up to prove he could play in the league. But clearly he wasn’t give the rest of the team a free pass to try less and leave him exposed because the LC means less. He still expects them to uphold the standards he has set.

Again, read his book and understand what he expects every day. Standards are high. But what he says in public and private are going to be very different things because they have different objectives and audiences.
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Fair comments mate, but I would argue back about a couple of things. I dont see how he needed to lift the pressure for that game, there was no big build up to the game in fact there was pretty low expectations from the fans as a whole with a weak side expected to play. i dont envisage the players feeling the pressure for what was relatively a low key match, and if they were Im not sure they have the mentality for Poch? Noone was saying he had to beat his chest and scream 'we must win', but I dont see the harm in saying 'we're in it to win it'. I dont envisage he is telling the media we are prioritising the PL and CL, then running over to the players in training and telling them 'Im just lying to the media, this is a big game for us' - that just creates pressure in itself.He said what he said and that attitude filtered down to the players, rightly or wrongly. You talk about the fact we was 2-0 up, but we were still awful in that first half - it wasnt like we played well at all, we looked half baked and like we couldnt care less.That isnt me attributing it all to Poch, but I dont think his comments helped. The crowd attendance shows the fans weren't that bothered, the managers' comments suggested he wasnt that bothered, and the players' performance looked like they wasn't that bothered.

But hey, what do I know - Im obviously looking at things far too simplisticly....
 
harr1984 said:
Fair comments mate, but I would argue back about a couple of things. I dont see how he needed to lift the pressure for that game, there was no big build up to the game in fact there was pretty low expectations from the fans as a whole with a weak side expected to play. i dont envisage the players feeling the pressure for what was relatively a low key match, and if they were Im not sure they have the mentality for Poch? Noone was saying he had to beat his chest and scream 'we must win', but I dont see the harm in saying 'we're in it to win it'. I dont envisage he is telling the media we are prioritising the PL and CL, then running over to the players in training and telling them 'Im just lying to the media, this is a big game for us' - that just creates pressure in itself.He said what he said and that attitude filtered down to the players, rightly or wrongly. You talk about the fact we was 2-0 up, but we were still awful in that first half - it wasnt like we played well at all, we looked half baked and like we couldnt care less.That isnt me attributing it all to Poch, but I dont think his comments helped. The crowd attendance shows the fans weren't that bothered, the managers' comments suggested he wasnt that bothered, and the players' performance looked like they wasn't that bothered.

But hey, what do I know - Im obviously looking at things far too simplisticly....
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I don’t think we were awful in that first half at all.

I also don’t think he has to tell players that he’s lying to the media - they are all elite footballers and will know every single week he will say something different to the media than he does to them.

The pressure was not on the West Ham game, it was on the team for the month generally - my point was that on the least important game, you want them to play with freedom rather than be overly demanding because sometimes that has a better effect.

Again, it’s about controlling the narrative. Did you notice most of the media coverage before the United game barely mentioned the West Ham game at all? There was no ‘Spurs in crisis’, no ‘Spurs embarrassed and let a two goal lead slip to London rivals’, no ‘Spurs have to beat United or they are in a downward spiral’. There was nothing like that, because the narrative had been controlled. There’s no point the press going in hard on Poch for it and asking if he’s embarrassed, because he’s already said it was 4th priority. And we were free to contest the United game in isolation, as if the West Ham game never happened. Media management is a different thing to squad motivation.

It doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to win a trophy. It doesn’t mean he was giving the players a free pass. The guy who won’t let players walk off the training pitch looking at the floor because he is concerned with the effect an apathetic attitude can have on the whole vibe of the squad is not going to let the first team willingly underperform under his watch. Read his book for all of that stuff. But what he was trying to do was control the narrative, and ensure that whatever happened, we would be able to face United with a normal amount of pressure, rather than having to answer questions about how bad the team did in such an important game. Let’s say he tells the press how important the West Ham game is, knowing that West Ham will probably treat it as a Cup final, knowing anything can happen in a cup, knowing they will be looking for some respite from league struggles and that things could do wrong. Let’s say he says it’s massively important, because we need to win a trophy to get to the next level. And then we lose. Before the United game, he’s made a rod for his own back. He will want to maintain an air of calm but it will be impossible because he stoked it up.

His entire media strategy is to be vague but really to not allow them to put us under unnecessary pressure. He exudes calm. He keeps us on an even keel. That’s all he was doing. And in terms of media coverage, it worked. But I think it’s blindingly obvious he wasn’t going to let the players half ass a game because of what he says in the press.
 
90291Spur said:
Perhaps some people like the possibility of winning a trophy.
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Something that I think you have to realise here is that we at a disadvantage to a number of clubs in the league due to them having far greater finances than us. Larger finances will typically mean a bigger, better squad - due to the increased transfer and wage budget that those clubs operate.

Pochettino could probably go all out to win both the league cup and the FA cup each season. However doing this would probably come at the expense of form in the PL and CL.

IMO if Pochettino did this we could perhaps hope to win one of those two Cups once every 4 or 5 years. However we would also be more likely to miss out on the top 4 and the Champions league. In this scenario the finances available to the club would be lower, making it even more difficult to compete across multiple competitions the following year.

People talk about the likes of Mourinho taking the domestic cups seriously, but that is because he has been at clubs that have the biggest transfer and wage budgets. He therefore doesn't have to prioritise as much as Pochettino does at Spurs with his smaller squad.

I think what Pochettino is trying to do at Spurs is pretty clear. If we can have a sustained run challenging for the title and qualifying for the champions league then our profile and finances will grow. Eventually we will reach a point where we have the income in place to operate a squad where every player is of first team standard, at that point we can challenge for every trophy without impacting our chances in the biggest competitions in which we absolutely have to be competing in order to keep on increasing our profile and finances.
 
Finney Is Back said:
Something that I think you have to realise here is that we at a disadvantage to a number of clubs in the league due to them having far greater finances than us. Larger finances will typically mean a bigger, better squad - due to the increased transfer and wage budget that those clubs operate.

Pochettino could probably go all out to win both the league cup and the FA cup each season. However doing this would probably come at the expense of form in the PL and CL.

IMO if Pochettino did this we could perhaps hope to win one of those two Cups once every 4 or 5 years. However we would also be more likely to miss out on the top 4 and the Champions league. In this scenario the finances available to the club would be lower, making it even more difficult to compete across multiple competitions the following year.

People talk about the likes of Mourinho taking the domestic cups seriously, but that is because he has been at clubs that have the biggest transfer and wage budgets. He therefore doesn't have to prioritise as much as Pochettino does at Spurs with his smaller squad.

I think what Pochettino is trying to do at Spurs is pretty clear. If we can have a sustained run challenging for the title and qualifying for the champions league then our profile and finances will grow. Eventually we will reach a point where we have the income in place to operate a squad where every player is of first team standard, at that point we can challenge for every trophy without impacting our chances in the biggest competitions in which we absolutely have to be competing in order to keep on increasing our profile and finances.
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The gamble with cups is that one bad result an your out
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I don’t think we were awful in that first half at all.

I also don’t think he has to tell players that he’s lying to the media - they are all elite footballers and will know every single week he will say something different to the media than he does to them.

The pressure was not on the West Ham game, it was on the team for the month generally - my point was that on the least important game, you want them to play with freedom rather than be overly demanding because sometimes that has a better effect.

Again, it’s about controlling the narrative. Did you notice most of the media coverage before the United game barely mentioned the West Ham game at all? There was no ‘Spurs in crisis’, no ‘Spurs embarrassed and let a two goal lead slip to London rivals’, no ‘Spurs have to beat United or they are in a downward spiral’. There was nothing like that, because the narrative had been controlled. There’s no point the press going in hard on Poch for it and asking if he’s embarrassed, because he’s already said it was 4th priority. And we were free to contest the United game in isolation, as if the West Ham game never happened. Media management is a different thing to squad motivation.

It doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to win a trophy. It doesn’t mean he was giving the players a free pass. The guy who won’t let players walk off the training pitch looking at the floor because he is concerned with the effect an apathetic attitude can have on the whole vibe of the squad is not going to let the first team willingly underperform under his watch. Read his book for all of that stuff. But what he was trying to do was control the narrative, and ensure that whatever happened, we would be able to face United with a normal amount of pressure, rather than having to answer questions about how bad the team did in such an important game. Let’s say he tells the press how important the West Ham game is, knowing that West Ham will probably treat it as a Cup final, knowing anything can happen in a cup, knowing they will be looking for some respite from league struggles and that things could do wrong. Let’s say he says it’s massively important, because we need to win a trophy to get to the next level. And then we lose. Before the United game, he’s made a rod for his own back. He will want to maintain an air of calm but it will be impossible because he stoked it up.

His entire media strategy is to be vague but really to not allow them to put us under unnecessary pressure. He exudes calm. He keeps us on an even keel. That’s all he was doing. And in terms of media coverage, it worked. But I think it’s blindingly obvious he wasn’t going to let the players half ass a game because of what he says in the press.
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I think you're well over thinking things there - When has there ever been a narrative like that after losing one game? The narrative for the Man U game was already there, Kane was injured and thats all anyone spoke about. Poch kept trying to play that factor down to the media, but it didnt work.....
 
harr1984 said:
I think you're well over thinking things there - When has there ever been a narrative like that after losing one game? The narrative for the Man U game was already there, Kane was injured and thats all anyone spoke about. Poch kept trying to play that factor down to the media, but it didnt work.....
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I don't think I'm over thinking it at all. If Poch goes to the media and says it's a massively important game, and it's must-win because we need to win a trophy, and then we don't, he's increased the pressure for the next game. He's opened himself up to all sorts of questions he'd rather not deal with, and the team up to all sorts of coverage they'd rather not have.

Media messaging is as much about the following game as it is the next. Sometimes he may want to stoke up pressure on specific players (e.g. Foyth) to see how they'd react, but overall, the loss was treated like it was meaningless to us and wasn't mentioned at all in the build up to the United game. Just see how quickly Arsenal are one game from crisis as an example of how it can take a life of its own. Poch's job is to let the players play without added pressure. He's protecting them and I bet they were thankful for it.
 
So sorry to bring this thread back to Sissoko - but I can't help thinking that his continual inclusion in the starting 11 (and as a fairly regular sub) displays a fundamental weakness in our squad. It appears that he is capable of being a decent player (and even pretty bloody good against Madrid), but it also appears that he is fundamentally not the sort of player coveted by other Top 4 (and equivalent clubs).

Obviously we have a number of significant injuries - Lamela, Dembele, Wanyama - but what does it say about our chances if Mr. Sissoko is the answer to the question of who do you play in important matches?
 
90291Spur said:
So sorry to bring this thread back to Sissoko - but I can't help thinking that his continual inclusion in the starting 11 (and as a fairly regular sub) displays a fundamental weakness in our squad. It appears that he is capable of being a decent player (and even pretty bloody good against Madrid), but it also appears that he is fundamentally not the sort of player coveted by other Top 4 (and equivalent clubs).

Obviously we have a number of significant injuries - Lamela, Dembele, Wanyama - but what does it say about our chances if Mr. Sissoko is the answer to the question of who do you play in important matches?
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As you say, he did well against Madrid in a big game, and has been a big contributor in games like Everton and West Ham away when they've been expected to sit back more and we've had to make the play. He wasn't particularly good against United and I think everyone agrees that he's probably behind near enough all of our other midfielder options when everyone else is fit, but that's that isn't it. Not everyone is fit. So he's here and at least he is contributing.
 
90291Spur said:
So sorry to bring this thread back to Sissoko - but I can't help thinking that his continual inclusion in the starting 11 (and as a fairly regular sub) displays a fundamental weakness in our squad. It appears that he is capable of being a decent player (and even pretty bloody good against Madrid), but it also appears that he is fundamentally not the sort of player coveted by other Top 4 (and equivalent clubs).

Obviously we have a number of significant injuries - Lamela, Dembele, Wanyama - but what does it say about our chances if Mr. Sissoko is the answer to the question of who do you play in important matches?
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You can only deal with the hand your given.

Pool for example have no one on their bench now that Mane is out as cover for their attacking 3 so their now playing sturridge

Arsenal actually have more attacking players than most but have a big drop of in quality with them like we do (players like Walcott just haven’t got better)

Chelsea have Willian, Pedro and hazard for 2 spots and that shows a big weakness IMO in their squad

City have more than enough but strangely haven’t addressed their Centre back depth issue

United have more than enough players but are still reliant on a very streaky striker and being mean in defence

A fit Lamella gets in ahead of Sissoko in most people’s team but Poch makes the big calls
 
harr1984 said:
Fair comments mate, but I would argue back about a couple of things. I dont see how he needed to lift the pressure for that game, there was no big build up to the game in fact there was pretty low expectations from the fans as a whole with a weak side expected to play. i dont envisage the players feeling the pressure for what was relatively a low key match, and if they were Im not sure they have the mentality for Poch? Noone was saying he had to beat his chest and scream 'we must win', but I dont see the harm in saying 'we're in it to win it'. I dont envisage he is telling the media we are prioritising the PL and CL, then running over to the players in training and telling them 'Im just lying to the media, this is a big game for us' - that just creates pressure in itself.He said what he said and that attitude filtered down to the players, rightly or wrongly. You talk about the fact we was 2-0 up, but we were still awful in that first half - it wasnt like we played well at all, we looked half baked and like we couldnt care less.That isnt me attributing it all to Poch, but I dont think his comments helped. The crowd attendance shows the fans weren't that bothered, the managers' comments suggested he wasnt that bothered, and the players' performance looked like they wasn't that bothered.

But hey, what do I know - Im obviously looking at things far too simplisticly....
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Good post which i agree with and it sums it up for me.
 
greatwhitenorf said:
Squared the ball back for Winks to feed Trippier on that first goal. Looked like a live-action set piece and he did his part, moving away from Winks toward goal to keep defenders from rushing out.
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You do realize this is the Sissoko thread and there isn't much room in here for praise - unless you add that the pass was Sissoko actually trying to control the ball and then he was running away from the action.
 
Sissoko has been much improved this season, done a job covering for our injured players. I thought he was poor v Madrid BUT he did do a decent job on Marcelo again imo.
 
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