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Mousa Dembele

Maltese Falcon said:
So does Ravel Morrison, Adel Taarabt and an endless list of players I can mention. But they are not - and there is a reason for that. The only reason he looks good against the top side is because he does not lose the ball and is capable of dribbling his way past even world class oppposition - but what does he do with the ball then?



AVB tried to coach it out of him and failed; Sherwood tried to coach it out of him and failed; Poch tried to coach it out of him and failed.... get the pattern? What is the common factor here?

This is a player who admits loving to dribble for dribbling sake; who - despite being vaunted by many posters as our best attacking midfielder, scores less than Townsend and Lamela, and who had to be motivated by being told he could be the next Real Madrid signing because he was so laid back...

His feet may be worldclass but his brain lags behind - big time. I am honestly sick of people making all sorts of apologies for Dembele when the fact is he is simply too mentally lazy to work at his game in the way Kane did and hit the heights that he is capable of. He will never even get close to his potential because he lacks the most important attribute of a successful player - sheer bloodymindedness
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Can't remember who, but a pundit or commentator once said that Dembele had explained why he's really good at dribbling and not that good at releasing the ball and shooting it. When he was a kid in Belgium they used to play a game where the goal was a single post and you had to run the ball to that post to get a goal, and the pundit at least linked his "style of play" to that. Anyway, the reason why these players are considered hugely talented is that it is easier to teach a player to make the right choices on the pitch rather than teaching them to dribble past the whole opposition, but as you say, he stagnated after his move from Fulham to us. But he didn't stagnate at a bad level, and I agree with Rorschach that he's being underused as of today.
 
This guy needs to start every gsme from now on. Next to bentaleb or swap with Eriksen, be nice to see eriksen have more of the ball in a game in the middle of the park.
 
braineclipse said:
Also a bit harsh to just call him lazy. He's struggling to learn quick pass and move football at a very high level in his mid-late twenties. It's not like learning to ride a bike and tons of footballers have failed at that.
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I called him mentally lazy; which is a less PC way of saying: "He's struggling to learn quick pass and move football at a very high level in his mid-late twenties"

braineclipse said:
At least on the pitch he's always looked disciplined, diligent and hard working.
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... but ultimately ineffective.

I have found the best gauge of the utility of a player in our team is... if he were put on the transfer list would the teams we are competing against for top 4 be interested? In Demebele's case it would be complete and resounding NO!
 
Maltese Falcon said:
1. I called him mentally lazy; which is a less PC way of saying: "He's struggling to learn quick pass and move football at a very high level in his mid-late twenties"

2. ... but ultimately ineffective.

I have found the best gauge of the utility of a player in our team is... if he were put on the transfer list would the teams we are competing against for top 4 be interested? In Demebele's case it would be complete and resounding NO!
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1. I just don't think that necessarily has much to do with being mentally lazy. A whole host of players people wouldn't call any kinds of lazy have struggled with similar things.

Quick effective pass and move football is not a simple skill imo, it's a complex one that requires a lot of separate factors to be in place - particularly at this very high level. In fact I struggle to think of many players who developed that skill a bit later on in their careers after earlier looking like they didn't master it. I think that's part of the reason why we're developing our own young players, and why a team like Barca struggle to make new signings fit in and depend so heavily on their La Masia products.

2. Agreed, and agreed. Although this is partly due to him struggling for form and match time of course. I think he's good enough for a team challenging for 4th, particularly for a squad role. But he needs to fit into a system, currently he seems a poor fit for us.
 
ess said:
Can't remember who, but a pundit or commentator once said that Dembele had explained why he's really good at dribbling and not that good at releasing the ball and shooting it. When he was a kid in Belgium they used to play a game where the goal was a single post and you had to run the ball to that post to get a goal, and the pundit at least linked his "style of play" to that. Anyway, the reason why these players are considered hugely talented is that it is easier to teach a player to make the right choices on the pitch rather than teaching them to dribble past the whole opposition, but as you say, he stagnated after his move from Fulham to us. But he didn't stagnate at a bad level, and I agree with Rorschach that he's being underused as of today.
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That originates from this interview that Demele did a few months after he signed for Spurs in which he comes across as easygoing as Assou-Ekotto and states that he doesn't even like watching football games.

If only there were a set of goalposts near to the street where Dembele grew up he might've developed into the new Yaya, rather than just being a more athletic version of Parker with better pirouettes.

Tottenham's Mousa Dembele on why he is not the new Luca Modric | Daily Mail Online
Welcome to the relaxed, laid-back world of Planet Dembele, where time seems to tick at a different pace and style is everything.

‘When I was young I never shot. I always wanted to dribble the ball in the goal. I don’t want to shoot because I don’t like to, but it’s different now. You have more experience and you think more.

‘Is it about scoring the perfect goal? Yes, maybe. Before I always played on the street with two lampposts that were like a basketball pitch, and we could not shoot. You had to dribble and touch the ball on the posts to score. We never shoot the ball.
...
‘I never watched football,’ says Dembele.

‘I could not watch a game for 10 minutes. But in the last three years I’ve started watching football more and more, and now I watch quite a lot. I find it more interesting. Before, I just wanted to play football. Now I can watch it.

‘I like to watch the top teams in different countries, like Spain or Bayern Munich in Germany. The rest I don’t watch. I have nothing to do with that.

‘I’m not a freak. I know guys who watch every game. I’m not like that. I need to know someone or have a bit of history.

‘Ninety minutes? Impossible. Maybe 30 minutes, then 10 minutes doing something else, then another 20 minutes. Ninety minutes is too long.’
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Real shame it hasn't worked out. I really like Dembele still. Fantastic ability and I think is underrated by many.
 
diego_maradona said:
Real shame it hasn't worked out. I really like Dembele still. Fantastic ability and I think is underrated by many.
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I love him too. Play him number 10 and Eriksen on the left. Jol used to tell him he had to get off 5 shots a game at Fulham, just give the same instruction and he'll be fine.
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
Our best performances and form this season coincided with him playing in the advanced midfield role, one bad half against west ham and he's been completely bombed out, really disappointing from Poch.
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Exactly... Because he holds the ball up in the opposition half. Yes he could pass quicker and shoot more but ultimately his strength is keeping the ball. Using him further up the pitch with his skills makes him very effective despite what the detractors say
 
I just don't get this one from Poch. He was looking good further up the pitch, just like in previous season in a couple of games under Sherwood. Why has he not persisted with this? I could almost understand if the three behind Kane had made it their own positions but none of them have. Eriksen and Chadli have both had solid and productive seasons but have also both been patchy, which is where Dembele should have at least been rotated more against these two so they could be fresher and more consistently productive. Same for Lamela who has shown 'green shoots' and will still become a star here IMO but this season hasn't done enough to guarantee a start. So by default at the very least Demebele should have had more game time in one of the three AM positions, but I actually think he is effective there regardless.

I like Poch,his style and philosophy etc but I do question some of his selections. That being said I'm not going to judge too much because there is clearly a few there currently playing who ideally he wouldn't want so I'll reserve judgement until next season regarding his selection as it's not been ideal for Poch this season. Far from it...
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Exactly... Because he holds the ball up in the opposition half. Yes he could pass quicker and shoot more but ultimately his strength is keeping the ball. Using him further up the pitch with his skills makes him very effective despite what the detractors say
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Perhaps we just need ours to start tackling him as well. Time it just right, we could be on to something.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Exactly... Because he holds the ball up in the opposition half. Yes he could pass quicker and shoot more but ultimately his strength is keeping the ball. Using him further up the pitch with his skills makes him very effective despite what the detractors say
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Except he wasn't effective there for Fulham either, which is why he was moved to a deeper position.
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
Our best performances and form this season coincided with him playing in the advanced midfield role, one bad half against west ham and he's been completely bombed out, really disappointing from Poch.
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With him and Stam it seems like he was waiting for them to make a mistake so he could bin them again and revert to the norm, where as others can play badly (at best) for weeks and not be dropped.
 
Hoddledro said:
Think we'd have a few more points now if we'd played Dembele and lennon in every game once we got to one a week.
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Actually, probably all season would have led to at least 5-8 points to the better (my guess), which is quite telling if you look at the table.

- To me, Lennon would have provided width, pace and cover for FB = more options in attack (Everton has proven he only sticks to the width on order, he's often in middle for them, so BS about he can't do the inverted winger brick), better defensively (again we know he can cover the FB way better than Lamela/Townsend), although again, I've seen Everton games where he has absolutely been told to stay high and not be defensive.
- Dembele provides the ability to settle the game for us, its one of the reasons we tend to look better with him, even if it doesn't always equal goals or changing game result if we are chasing a game. Our midfield tends not to get overrun as Dembele gets the ball and shields it as well as anyone in football.

Those two to me show a problem with Poch, a lack of flexibility, a lack of ability to tweak his system to get the best out quality players at his disposal

- Dembele can slow down the tempo of our game, attacks, work on a game plan that either helps him learn when/how to recycle faster, or build fast attack moves that don't include him
- Lennon can be marginalized/less effective if he isn't given the ball quickly, or if spending too much time defending, again, get a system to take advantage of him, all these fudging games that the opposistion has squeezed their two banks of 4 into a compressed center, get the ball to Lennon out wide quickly and behind them.

Instead Poch has played Lamela/Townsend who have both disappeared for long parts of games, as well as been as ineffective if not more than Lennon/Dembele in affecting game outcomes, he's also played Mason who can be quite inconsistent (I think Mason could have benefitted from a few less games, especially when he's had a tough few games re form)
 
Raziel said:
Actually, probably all season would have led to at least 5-8 points to the better (my guess), which is quite telling if you look at the table.

- To me, Lennon would have provided width, pace and cover for FB = more options in attack (Everton has proven he only sticks to the width on order, he's often in middle for them, so BS about he can't do the inverted winger crud), better defensively (again we know he can cover the FB way better than Lamela/Townsend), although again, I've seen Everton games where he has absolutely been told to stay high and not be defensive.
- Dembele provides the ability to settle the game for us, its one of the reasons we tend to look better with him, even if it doesn't always equal goals or changing game result if we are chasing a game. Our midfield tends not to get overrun as Dembele gets the ball and shields it as well as anyone in football.

Those two to me show a problem with Poch, a lack of flexibility, a lack of ability to tweak his system to get the best out quality players at his disposal

- Dembele can slow down the tempo of our game, attacks, work on a game plan that either helps him learn when/how to recycle faster, or build fast attack moves that don't include him
- Lennon can be marginalized/less effective if he isn't given the ball quickly, or if spending too much time defending, again, get a system to take advantage of him, all these fudgeing games that the opposistion has squeezed their two banks of 4 into a compressed center, get the ball to Lennon out wide quickly and behind them.

Instead Poch has played Lamela/Townsend who have both disappeared for long parts of games, as well as been as ineffective if not more than Lennon/Dembele in affecting game outcomes, he's also played Mason who can be quite inconsistent (I think Mason could have benefitted from a few less games, especially when he's had a tough few games re form)
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Agree with all of this

And just talking to munfulham supporting friend Dembele was pulled back from main striker to number 10 to top of the midfield quartet under Jol because they xpuskng hold the ball....
 
Unless hes been carrying injuries there is no excuse for not playing him ahead of anybody in our midfield area apart from Bentalab.
It is one of the worst bits of management of any of our recent disasters. Two of our best performances this season were Everton & Arsenal, Lennon very influential in one and Dembele superb in the other. So what do we see from then on??? Neither of them, brilliant stuff by this supposedly really clever manager, honestly we need to wake up and get rid of this clown before we are back to where we were pre Jol.
 
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