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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

DubaiSpur said:
Eh? I thought it was about whether Poch was a 'winner' or not? Regarding the players, as I said to @milo on the FA Cup thread, if they end up never winning anything, there's no reason to have them around, is there? Apart from the homegrown lads, of course. Save the money, spend it on helping the homeless in London or uplifting Haringey or something like that and make a real, substantive change to the world, because finishing 2nd ten years in a row won't change a single thing about how we're perceived, what we are or how dusty our trophy cabinet is. ;)
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we were having two simultaneous discussions - one regarding Poch being a winner, or not as it seems to some... and one regarding whether or not the players would stick around for a Cup win rather than our league form.

given the choice of ten years winning trophies each year or ten years finishing runner up id choose the former, but that would be a misrepresentation of the argument, imo
 
JerusalemMan said:
To be more explicit, if we were to finish this season with the gap as it currently is, would that shake your thinking at all on this issue?
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A bit, but not substantially. One more data point (going from 11 points to 4 points to maybe 2 points or so in 2017/2018) would give me substantive evidence of a continuous upward trend, which would definitely change my opinion quite a bit. But, as it stands, 2 seasons of challenging prior to moving into Wembley and then a new stadium (along with all the disruptions those moves will bring) doesn't quite cut it for me in terms of indicating our readiness to win a title we haven't won for 56 years. Especially when one of those challenges ended with us 11 points behind. :p
 
milo said:
You keep making this point but i think winning a cup would have done little to help us keep them. They left to challenge for the league, play regularly in the Champions League and to earn twice what we can afford to pay them.

Trophies are great and i want to see us win things but they will only help us hold onto players if they continue to be matched by strong league performances and qualification for the Champions League (and progressing to the knock out rounds). There isn't much we can do about salaries at the moment but at least by offering improved terms to our best performers, we are moving in the right direction and ensuring that our best players are on long contracts.
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Of course i keep saying it because its true and i did also say that at the time the teams they were in were not as good as what we have now. They left to do what you said (They left to challenge for the league, play regularly in the Champions League and to earn twice what we can afford to pay them) but they also wanted to become winners with medals. Now our side today can do all those things ( apart from doubling their wages) and unless we start to win those medals i fear they will look for teams where they can do just that.
 
parklane1 said:
Of course i keep saying it because its true and i did also say that at the time the teams they were in were not as good as what we have now. They left to do what you said (They left to challenge for the league, play regularly in the Champions League and to earn twice what we can afford to pay them) but they also wanted to become winners with medals. Now our side today can do all those things ( apart from doubling their wages) and unless we start to win those medals i fear they will look for teams where they can do just that.
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I think that of the two, regular Champions League football (and the money that comes with it) is more important when it comes to holding onto players. It is sad but in modern football, the domestic cups are the icing on the cake.
 
parklane1 said:
Of course i keep saying it because its true and i did also say that at the time the teams they were in were not as good as what we have now. They left to do what you said (They left to challenge for the league, play regularly in the Champions League and to earn twice what we can afford to pay them) but they also wanted to become winners with medals. Now our side today can do all those things ( apart from doubling their wages) and unless we start to win those medals i fear they will look for teams where they can do just that.
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Carragher's a t*t, but he was also very right when he mentioned that the thing players ask other players about the most is still the trophies they've won. 'Show us your medals, what have you got?'.

It must be pretty hard for a player to stand there and say 'none, but we finished 4th ten times in a row.' Arsenal players must have been the worst-hit, but even they've won two FA Cups in the past four years and are now in another final.
 
milo said:
I think that of the two, regular Champions League football (and the money that comes with it) is more important when it comes to holding onto players. It is sad but in modern football, the domestic cups are the icing on the cake.
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i understand what you are saying however if all we do is finish in the top four we win nothing, look at the Arse why do you think some of there best players have left over the last decade or so? Finishing in the top four is important but winning trophys while we do that is as well. We have a team now that can do all of that and as i say winning the first trophy will make our players hungry to win more.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Carragher's a t*t, but he was also very right when he mentioned that the thing players ask other players about the most is still the trophies they've won. 'Show us your medals, what have you got?'.

It must be pretty hard for a player to stand there and say 'none, but we finished 4th ten times in a row.' Arsenal players must have been the worst-hit, but even they've won two FA Cups in the past four years and are now in another final.
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And that is 100% right, good players want medals and they will no longer stick around if we fail to win them.
 
parklane1 said:
i understand what you are saying however if all we do is finish in the top four we win nothing, look at the Arse why do you think some of there best players have left over the last decade or so? Finishing in the top four is important but winning trophys while we do that is as well. We have a team now that can do all of that and as i say winning the first trophy will make our players hungry to win more.
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I want us to win stuff too. I just think that given the choice of the two (an choice we are not being asked to make), I think that regular Champions League football will do more to help us build a squad that can regularly challenge in multiple competitions than winning the FA or League Cup would.
 
milo said:
I want us to win stuff too. I just think that given the choice of the two (an choice we are not being asked to make), I think that regular Champions League football will do more to help us build a squad that can regularly challenge in multiple competitions than winning the FA or League Cup would.
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Well as i said earlier it has not done much for the Arse trophy cabinet and it has not stopped some of their best players from leaving.
 
parklane1 said:
Well as i said earlier it has not done much for the Arse trophy cabinet and it has not stopped some of their best players from leaving.
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They've done alright in the FA Cup of late. But maybe a manager who has been there donkey's years and has run out of ideas is not the best comparison to make.
 
milo said:
They've done alright in the FA Cup of late. But maybe a manager who has been there donkey's years and has run out of ideas is not the best comparison to make.
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You have a point but its there and a comparison is valid. Look we all want to see our club become a top team, to do that we have to make the top four but we also need to win trophys. I said else where next season is so important for our future with this team. Players will not be happy with just making the top four ( and from memory a few of our players have already said winning a trophys has to be the next step).
 
parklane1 said:
You have a point but its there and a comparison is valid. Look we all want to see our club become a top team, to do that we have to make the top four but we also need to win trophys. I said else where next season is so important for our future with this team. Players will not be happy with just making the top four ( and from memory a few of our players have already said winning a trophys has to be the next step).
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If we were going to rank the things that will help us hold onto our best players and build a squad to match our rivals, I'd have a domestic cup as fourth or fifth on the list. Without a lot of thought, I'd have it like this:

1. Holding onto Poch
2. Paying market wages
3. Champions League football
4. Challenging for the title
5. Domestic cups
 
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milo said:
If we were going to rank the things that will help us hold onto our best players and build a squad to match our rivals, I'd have a domestic cup as fourth or fifth on the list. Without a lot of thought, I'd have it like this:

1. Holding onto Poch
2. Paying market wages
3. Champions League football
4. Challenging for the title
5. Domestic cups
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I think they are all important and if we are to keep our best players we have to do all of them, we are never really going to compete on wages with the financially doped clubs ( Chelski, City) , Utd make so much money from there commercial deals and Liverpool must print their own. So that one is going to be hard to achieve though.
 
milo said:
Out of interest, what order would you put them in @parklane1?
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Well i agree with the what you have put as no1, as for the others as i say market wages is not going to happen ( at least not for a few years) so i would not rate that one.

As for the others i would say they go hand in hand so i will/can not make a list. You do like your favourite Fives d'ont you;)
 
parklane1 said:
Well i agree with the what you have put as no1, as for the others as i say market wages is not going to happen ( at least not for a few years) so i would not rate that one.

As for the others i would say they go hand in hand so i will/can not make a list. You do like your favourite Fives d'ont you;)
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I think that we can match the second tier market rates for a few of our players. I agree that we could not match a club that was willing to pay £200k+ a week.

I don't agree that the domestic cups are on a level with Champions League football for modern players. I'd agree that it was the case before the formation of the Champions League but I don't think so now. It is clear that most Premier League managers do not treat them as a priority and I think I think their status has been damaged as a result.

Not really fussed about top fives, it's just an easy way of presenting something.
 
parklane1 said:
Well as i said earlier it has not done much for the Arse trophy cabinet and it has not stopped some of their best players from leaving.
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They've been doing it for fifteen years or so in a row and atrophied somewhat.
We're about to only get our second consecutive year.

I feel like this argument is putting the very shabby cart before the horse.
If we had five straight years of Champions League football and also not winning anything, it'd be worrying (though a nice new worry for me as a Spurs fan). Until that time, let's just focus on attaining that consistency at the top end of the table because a team that can do that should concomitantly be challenging well for the cups too.
 
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