Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Modric THFC]

Why do I get a feeling that the Son as wing back decision would never have been made in a normal fixture?

Does he get to these big games and decides to make a surprising change to gain some type of advantage?

Gambles with introducing 343 against Arsenal (with Wimmer in the back 3!).

Then another gamble with Wimmer at left back against Chelsea.

I feel there's more from previous season but I'm in mood to trawl through them.

 

[Robspur12]

No we don't need to make sacrifices. Of course only being competitive in one competition helps,but on another day we should have beaten Chelsea yesterday and had a fair to good chance to win the final so who says we need to make sacrifices? Fact is under Poch we have had a few big games determining whether we can go on to win a trophy or not, and to date he's failed them all. We can compete against anyone, but we need to win some of these 'decider' big games more, and that is what will convert Poch into a winner. He's done wonders for us, but nonetheless he isn't beyond constructive criticism, and I am sure knowing how competitive he is that he himself is as self critical about not winning a trophy with us as any fan....

We will have to agree to disagree. I can't think of a single club with our level of spending who can compete on multiple fronts. Most are not even competing on one front.

Yes you are right he he hasn't won those big games YET. But in all 3 seasons he has been building a squad and he has steadily improved us each season. He has made us so far unbeatable at home and out competing all but Chelsea in the league.

You can keep making a case that up til now he hasn't won a trophy. To me that seems harsh and impatient especially in the context of where we have been in the PL, what he has had to rebuild and where we are now.

There will also be several bigger clubs than us who will see what he has done with Spurs so far. Even having won nothing they would snap him up knowing if they make available their superior resources he will win them titles.

 

[harr1984]

We will have to agree to disagree. I can't think of a single club with our level of spending who can compete on multiple fronts. Most are not even competing on one front.

Yes you are right he he hasn't won those big games YET. But in all 3 seasons he has been building a squad and he has steadily improved us each season. He has made us so far unbeatable at home and out competing all but Chelsea in the league.

You can keep making a case that up til now he hasn't won a trophy. To me that seems harsh and impatient especially in the context of where we have been in the PL, what he has had to rebuild and where we are now.

There will also be several bigger clubs than us who will see what he has done with Spurs so far. Even having won nothing they would snap him up knowing if they make available their superior resources he will win them titles.

The thing is I agree with your sentiments about Poch, I only came into this thread because some have an issue with saying Poch isn't a winner. To date he's chances to win cups with the League cup final and FA cups semi, and hasn't therefore he hasn't proved himself to be a winner YET. What's the big deal about that? No ones said he's never going to win anything or that he's not doing a great job, but he has a bit to do before being considered one of the top coaches yet. And please stop talking like going to one of the big clubs will mean he gets titles, because managing those clubs with huge expectations and players with huge egos is a skill all in itself and it's not as simple as Championship Manager has you believe. Does Poch have any experience of managing big egos? Nope, he kicked out the ones we had at our club(not saying he's wrong to do so) because with his style of play it's a lot easier to coach young players and mound them....

 

[milo]

We will have to agree to disagree. I can't think of a single club with our level of spending who can compete on multiple fronts. Most are not even competing on one front.

Yes you are right he he hasn't won those big games YET. But in all 3 seasons he has been building a squad and he has steadily improved us each season. He has made us so far unbeatable at home and out competing all but Chelsea in the league.

You can keep making a case that up til now he hasn't won a trophy. To me that seems harsh and impatient especially in the context of where we have been in the PL, what he has had to rebuild and where we are now.

There will also be several bigger clubs than us who will see what he has done with Spurs so far. Even having won nothing they would snap him up knowing if they make available their superior resources he will win them titles.

I think that we also have to remember that we are talking about one off games here too. Many of us before the game would have had us at 50/50 at most to win the game and a lot of us would have had our chances lower then that. If that is the case, it seems silly to start talking about winning mentality when we only expect to win the game one in two and the team had shown plenty of fight on the field.

 

[Robspur12]

The thing is I agree with your sentiments about Poch, I only came into this thread because some have an issue with saying Poch isn't a winner. To date he's chances to win cups with the League cup final and FA cups semi, and hasn't therefore he hasn't proved himself to be a winner YET. What's the big deal about that? No ones said he's never going to win anything or that he's not doing a great job, but he has a bit to do before being considered one of the top coaches yet. And please stop talking like going to one of the big clubs will mean he gets titles, because managing those clubs with huge expectations and players with huge egos is a skill all in itself and it's not as simple as Championship Manager has you believe. Does Poch have any experience of managing big egos? Nope, he kicked out the ones we had at our club(not saying he's wrong to do so) because with his style of play it's a lot easier to coach young players and mound them....

The discussion actually started with a post suggesting not that Poch has not won anything yet but is not a winner period. That is that he is not capable of winning anything.

 

[harr1984]

The discussion actually started with a post suggesting not that Poch has not won anything yet but is not a winner period. That is that he is not capable of winning anything.

It looked like it was you who decided the poster meant Poch would never win anything rather than him saying so. However if that what was meant, I'm in agreement with you....

 

[milo]

It's best to ignore what Indianspur says, he only ever turns up after we have lost a game to have a dig at the club.

 

[billyiddo]

It looked like it was you who decided the poster meant Poch would never win anything rather than him saying so. However if that what was meant, I'm in agreement with you....

Great man, excellent coach, but sadly not a winner

Robspur has it right imo - Poch may be a good coach but is sadly (for us) not a winner (meaning we're never going to win under him) - is how that reads to me.

coupled in the fact that Indianspur is the type of poster who disappears when we're doing well and only pops up when there's something to complain (or more accurately WUM) about, like last season when he didn't post from about October onward and then started again minutes after the Saudi Sportswashing Machine result and again this season not posting at all until yesterday - you kind of get a picture of what his intentions are

 

[afsoc4life]

No we don't need to make sacrifices. Of course only being competitive in one competition helps,but on another day we should have beaten Chelsea yesterday and had a fair to good chance to win the final so who says we need to make sacrifices? Fact is under Poch we have had a few big games determining whether we can go on to win a trophy or not, and to date he's failed them all. We can compete against anyone, but we need to win some of these 'decider' big games more, and that is what will convert Poch into a winner. He's done wonders for us, but nonetheless he isn't beyond constructive criticism, and I am sure knowing how competitive he is that he himself is as self critical about not winning a trophy with us as any fan....

Give the man a better squad and then judge him. I am not going to say anything negative about him because yesterday's match IMHO cleared showed the squad strength we need in order to compete. When Poch is able to bring the likes of Hazard, Costa and Fabregas off a bench and then loses - I will lambast him. Till then I am not going to downrate him in England. Now European football that is a different matter.

 

[harr1984]

Robspur has it right imo - Poch may be a good coach but is sadly (for us) not a winner (meaning we're never going to win under him) - is how that reads to me.

coupled in the fact that Indianspur is the type of poster who disappears when we're doing well and only pops up when there's something to complain (or more accurately WUM) about, like last season when he didn't post from about October onward and then started again minutes after the Saudi Sportswashing Machine result and again this season not posting at all until yesterday - you kind of get a picture of what his intentions are

Ok well if he meant as you guys say then I've misinterpreted. I've no doubt Poch will win things for us, but there are a lot of people and media referencing the fact he hasn't won anything still and it's a fair counter argument and point to raise. Let's hope the drought ends sooner rather than later....

 

[DubaiSpur]

I think that we also have to remember that we are talking about one off games here too. Many of us before the game would have had us at 50/50 at most to win the game and a lot of us would have had our chances lower then that. If that is the case, it seems silly to start talking about winning mentality when we only expect to win the game one in two and the team had shown plenty of fight on the field.

Aye, but building a dynasty or even just winning a trophy (any trophy) requires decisiveness and a refusal to be beaten in one-off matches, even ones we're not favorites for. Especially ones we're not favorites for.

And I think it's valid to point out that he hasn't yet won those games of note, having had multiple opportunities to do so. In the end, that's a fact. *Why* it is the way it is remains eminently debatable, and I don't think anyone should really jump the gun and go from singing his praises to questioning his desire or ability to win off the basis of one one-off match against Chelsea, however strange some of the tactical decisions were.

If he wins against Palace, he will become the best manager we've had in the Premier League era in terms of what he's done with us in the league - I retain a soft spot for Juande Ramos because he won something and I have an irrational preference for cups over points, but that's still a fantastic job worthy of applause. To have beaten our record points total with 5 games to go and without having spent much is a fantastic job.

But, in the end, football swings on little moments - 'clutch' moments like those against Chelsea. And as long as we keep finding ourselves on the losing side of such moments, it's inevitable that there will be some questions (voiced or unvoiced) about whether he can really go the final mile in terms of winning things.

 

[billyiddo]

he has won games of note like you describe its just unless those games were finals there is always a game after in which we lost - you are only counting the games we lost and not the ones before - unless your argument is purely down to us not winning a trophy in 3 seasons

 

[DubaiSpur]

he has won games of note like you describe its just unless those games were finals there is always a game after in which we lost - you are only counting the games we lost and not the ones before - unless your argument is purely down to us not winning a trophy in 3 seasons

In the cups, yeah. Like I said, he's done well with what he's been given in the league, and subject to winning one of our last six games, he will have done a great job this season - if there's a massive six game collapse a la the late wobble last year, then of course there will be questions, but he's built a massively strong position heading into them.

My argument is purely based on crunch moments in the cups, the moments where history is made, the team performs as one greater than the sum of its parts and we beat teams who would normally expect to beat us by dint of their wage budgets, experience in Europe et al.

 

[parklane1]

Interesting debate and i can see both sides of it, but as those on here know i have said on many occasions we should be looking ( harder) then we have over the years at winning something. We have the manager, we have top players ( there is no doubt about either of those). However we will never be taken seriously by the media or other clubs fans until we win a trophy, we have the players and once we win our first one i am sure it will life the players to go on and do it again.

We lost the likes of Berby, Modric, Carrick, Bale because they wanted to WIN things, our team is in a posistion ( better then those players mentioned were at the time) to do just that and we need to do it soon otherwise we could start seeing some of our players leaving ( taht is my fear).

 

[billyiddo]

In the cups, yeah. Like I said, he's done well with what he's been given in the league, and subject to winning one of our last six games, he will have done a great job this season - if there's a massive six game collapse a la the late wobble last year, then of course there will be questions, but he's built a massively strong position heading into them.

My argument is purely based on crunch moments in the cups, the moments where history is made, the team performs as one greater than the sum of its parts and we beat teams who would normally expect to beat us by dint of their wage budgets, experience in Europe et al.

i can only think off hand of the Chelsea league cup final and the game at the weekend which fit your description from the past three years - our other cup exits have come in games where we have weakened/rotated the side or have dropped a gonad* against a team weaker than us. can't think of many opportunities in the cups where we have had the opportunity to 'perform as one greater than the sum of its parts and we beat teams who would normally expect to beat us by dint of their wage budgets, experience in Europe et al.'

 

[DubaiSpur]

i can only think off hand of the Chelsea league cup final and the game at the weekend which fit your description from the past three years - our other cup exits have come in games where we have weakened/rotated the side or are not up against teams where we are not the favourite

Gent. Full strength. Against a mid-table Belgian side, to give you another example.

 

[milo]

We lost the likes of Berby, Modric, Carrick, Bale because they wanted to WIN things, our team is in a posistion ( better then those players mentioned were at the time) to do just that and we need to do it soon otherwise we could start seeing some of our players leaving ( taht is my fear).

You keep making this point but i think winning a cup would have done little to help us keep them. They left to challenge for the league, play regularly in the Champions League and to earn twice what we can afford to pay them.

Trophies are great and i want to see us win things but they will only help us hold onto players if they continue to be matched by strong league performances and qualification for the Champions League (and progressing to the knock out rounds). There isn't much we can do about salaries at the moment but at least by offering improved terms to our best performers, we are moving in the right direction and ensuring that our best players are on long contracts.

 

[billyiddo]

Gent. Full strength. Against a mid-table Belgian side, to give you another example.

but you're complaining about crunch games where history is made, ala games where we arent the favorite - not games against weaker opposition - or do i counter your Gent point with every weaker team we have beaten in knockout competition over the past three years?

 

[billyiddo]

You keep making this point but i think winning a cup would have done little to help us keep them. They left to challenge for the league, play regularly in the Champions League and to earn twice what we can afford to pay them.

Trophies are great and i want to see us win things but they will only help us hold onto players if they continue to be matched by strong league performances and qualification for the Champions League (and progressing to the knock out rounds). There isn't much we can do about salaries at the moment but at least by offering improved terms to our best performers, we are moving in the right direction and ensuring that our best players are on long contracts.

the players are much more likely to stay if they are at a club which is challenging for the league than they are a side nowhere near the title but winning the odd cup

 

[DubaiSpur]

but you're complaining about crunch games where history is made, ala games where we arent the favorite - not games against weaker opposition - or do i counter your Gent point with every weaker team we have beaten in knockout competition over the past three years?

Not exactly - I was a bit too flowery with my initial wording, and I apologize for that. In a sense that's because the concept is difficult to get across - the idea that we should inherently surmount barriers we have a disturbing tendency to fail at surmounting, in a way that is atypical of a side that aspires to be a challenger for silverware more broadly. That usually happens against strong sides (Chelsea - both examples), but it can equally happen against Gent, a game we thought was a perfect draw and one that ended up dumping us out on our *rses and leaving Poch out-thought by...hang on... 'Hein Vanhaezebrouck', who was then promptly ejected in the next round alongside his team when they came up against another Belgian side (Genk, I think) and were swiftly disposed of.

The whole 'Lads, it's Tottenham' thing stings, but there's a sort of inbuilt mythology to it that only grows when we fail to surmount barriers that are necessary to surmount to go all the way and dispel the notion of mental or technical weakness. Whether that's against Gent or against Chelsea.