Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[milo]

the players are much more likely to stay if they are at a club which is challenging for the league than they are a side nowhere near the title but winning the odd cup

I agree

 

[billyiddo]

Not exactly - I was a bit too flowery with my initial wording, and I apologize for that. In a sense that's because the concept is difficult to get across - the idea that we should inherently surmount barriers we have a disturbing tendency to fail at surmounting, in a way that is atypical of a side that aspires to be a challenger for silverware more broadly. That usually happens against strong sides (Chelsea - both examples), but it can equally happen against Gent, a game we thought was a perfect draw and one that ended up dumping us out on our *rses and leaving Poch out-thought by...hang on... 'Hein Vanhaezebrouck', who was then promptly ejected in the next round alongside his team when they came up against another Belgian side (Genk, I think) and were swiftly disposed of.

The whole 'Lads, it's Tottenham' thing stings, but there's a sort of inbuilt mythology to it that only grows when we fail to surmount barriers that are necessary to surmount to go all the way and dispel the notion of mental or technical weakness. Whether that's against Gent or against Chelsea.

if we had beaten Gent and then got knocked out in a later round would you have been thinking that previously beating Gent was an example of what you're talking about? i dont think you would have personally - the goal posts would have just moved to whichever game we eventually got knocked out at.

otherwise you'd have seen us beating Moscow the round previous or the Sheffield United league cup semi's (off the top of my head) as examples of 'crunch' games where we prevailed

 

[DubaiSpur]

the players are much more likely to stay if they are at a club which is challenging for the league than they are a side nowhere near the title but winning the odd cup

'Challenging' for the league at a club which has won two in its entire history is no indicator of impending success - to play devil's advocates, why would players stay at a club which only ever 'challenges' one one front while its trophy cabinet gets steadily dustier as even perennial 4th place meme-teams like Arsenal make (or are about to make) 3 FA Cup finals in 4 years?

 

[billyiddo]

'Challenging' for the league at a club which has won two in its entire history is no indicator of impending success - to play devil's advocates, why would players stay at a club which only ever 'challenges' one one front while its trophy cabinet gets steadily dustier as even perennial 4th place meme-teams like Arsenal make (or are about to make) 3 FA Cup finals in 4 years?

because challenging for the league is a better indicator of a sides quality/prospects than winning a knockout competition with a handful of rounds - and i think players are most likely to stay at a club which has that potential to become a regular title winner than one which doesn't show that quality/potential.

 

[DubaiSpur]

if we had beaten Gent and then got knocked out in a later round would you have been thinking that previously beating Gent was an example of what you're talking about? i dont think you would have personally - the goal posts would have just moved to whichever game we eventually got knocked out at.

otherwise you'd have seen us beating Moscow the round previous as an example of a crunch game being won, or the Sheffield United league cup semi's (off the top of my head) as examples of 'crunch' games where we prevailed

Yes. You understand now - a cup is a long series of one-off games, *all of which* need to be won, or at least lost in a fashion that doesn't reinforce the notion that we're pathologically disinclined or unable to win things no matter who's in charge. You're right that I would have been equally critical if we'd gone out against Genk in the second knockout round.

You want a trophy-winning Tottenham, this is the scale of the challenge that has to be overcome - a desire to win every one-off game up until and including the final. Anything less, and, however glorious our eventual exit, it's still a reinforcement of the mentality that there is something about us that precludes winning in moments that matter.

Arsenal are two minutes away from getting into their 3rd FA Cup final in 4 years. And however much we might mock them for declining, they now thoroughly know how to get to and win finals and moments of import in cup competitions. That used to be us, once. Then we started falling at the hurdle, and haven't stopped since the last time we got all the way to the final of a competition and actually went the final mile in terms of winning it (2008, to be precise).

 

[DubaiSpur]

because challenging for the league is a better indicator of a sides quality/prospects than winning a knockout competition with a handful of rounds - and i think players are most likely to stay at a club which has that potential to become a regular title winner than one which doesn't show that quality/potential.

Not if that's all it will ever be - 'potential'. And, justified or not, the suspicion will always remain that 'potential' is all it will ever be, because it isn't backed up by actually succeeding in the crunch moments that regularly show up on the way to a cup.

 

[billyiddo]

Yes. You understand now - a cup is a long series of one-off games, *all of which* need to be won, or at least lost in a fashion that doesn't reinforce the notion that we're pathologically disinclined or unable to win things no matter who's in charge. You're right that I would have been equally critical if we'd gone out against Genk in the second knockout round.

You want a trophy-winning Tottenham, this is the scale of the challenge that has to be overcome - a desire to win every one-off game up until and including the final. Anything less, and, however glorious our eventual exit, it's still a reinforcement of the mentality that there is something about us that precludes winning in moments that matter.

Arsenal are two minutes away from getting into their 3rd FA Cup final in 4 years. And however much we might mock them for declining, they now thoroughly know how to get to and win finals and moments of import in cup competitions. That used to be us, once. Then we started falling at the hurdle, and haven't stopped since the last time we got all the way to the final of a competition and actually went the final mile in terms of winning it (2008, to be precise).

then you have to agree with my early sentiment that you are shifting the goalposts in your complaint about crunch games, that you are only counting the losses and really this just boils down to you being unhappy that he hasn't won a trophy in his first three seasons?

 

[billyiddo]

Not if that's all it will ever be - 'potential'. And, justified or not, the suspicion will always remain that 'potential' is all it will ever be, because it isn't backed up by actually succeeding in the crunch moments that regularly show up on the way to a cup.

well of course, the players will leave eventually if we don't follow through on our potential but the players will leave sooner if that potential isnt there at all and an FA or League Cup win wouldn't change that

 

[DubaiSpur]

then you have to agree with my early sentiment that you are shifting the goalposts in your complaint about crunch games, that you are only counting the losses and really this just boils down to you being unhappy that he hasn't won a trophy in his first three seasons?

Again, not really. I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across, but Poch talks a big game and the team (sometimes unbearably) talks an even bigger one. They talk like they're on the level of the teams that are above and around us, and in terms of the league, perhaps they are. But they are still the Tottenham Hotspur that has won nothing whatsoever since 2008, and in three opportunities to progress or win a cup in moments where we've put out full-strength sides (i.e, CC final, Gent and yesterday) they have failed to correct that historical record. Thus, there is always an inbuilt *question* that will linger until the time when they actually perform to a manner consistent with a team that is on the level they like to describe themselves as being at - one which can win trophies as a prelude to winning titles. Not their fault at all, because this has been a hallmark of the club since loooong before this present batch ever showed up. But true nonetheless.

I'm not lambasting Poch for going out yesterday (barring perhaps his still utterly baffling decision to play Son at LB), because he tried to go all the way, as he did with the CC final and as he did (to an extent) in the second leg of the Gent game (first leg was a mess, though). I am far more fiercely critical of him when he doesn't try at all, as he did in last year's FA Cup, last year's CC, last year's Europa League, etcetera. But he tried yesterday - barring not inflicting strange tactical wounds on the team like Son in at LB, that's about all he can do, and I'm never going to criticise him for trying and then failing.

But I am not going to criticize anyone who points out that he hasn't actually won anything yet, despite all his promise. To me, that's a harsh fact that always has to be acknowledged - no sense denying it.

 

[DubaiSpur]

well of course, the players will leave eventually if we don't follow through on our potential but the players will leave sooner if that potential isnt there at all and an FA or League Cup win wouldn't change that

An FA Cup would signify potential, in my eyes. A string of 2nd place finishes but where we're ten points behind the leader actually wouldn't, or at least not to the same degree.

 

[JerusalemMan]

'Challenging' for the league at a club which has won two in its entire history is no indicator of impending success - to play devil's advocates, why would players stay at a club which only ever 'challenges' one one front while its trophy cabinet gets steadily dustier as even perennial 4th place meme-teams like Arsenal make (or are about to make) 3 FA Cup finals in 4 years?

This makes no sense.
The number of titles won by a club in the past hundred years is a far smaller indication of success likelihood than actual observation of the last year or two at a club - the present personnel, sustainability of team and style of play as well as more recent results as opposed to history from beyond the lifetimes of all existing players.

 

[JerusalemMan]

An FA Cup would signify potential, in my eyes. A string of 2nd place finishes but where we're ten points behind the leader actually wouldn't, or at least not to the same degree.

How about where we are four points behind?

 

[billyiddo]

but that is what you are saying @DubaiSpur - think about it, you don't seem to be counting the crunch games which we have won (and if you're counting Gent then im sure as hell counting Sheffield United and Moscow - if not every other knockout game we have won) so it only stands to reason that the only thing which would remedy this issue of yours would be winning a trophy - as in a situation where we didn't lose a 'crunch game'

 

[billyiddo]

An FA Cup would signify potential, in my eyes. A string of 2nd place finishes but where we're ten points behind the leader actually wouldn't, or at least not to the same degree.

an FA Cup win would be great, dont get me wrong but its a means to an end - its doesn't signify potential more so than consistent year on year improvements in the league

 

[DubaiSpur]

This makes no sense.
The number of titles won by a club in the past hundred years is a far smaller indication of success likelihood than actual observation of the last year or two at a club - the present personnel, sustainability of team and style of play as well as more recent results as opposed to history from beyond the lifetimes of all existing players.

Why? To push the question, we have had similarly great teams before fall at the final hurdle - in fact, they fell far, far more than they went all the way. Only two teams in our entire history have gone the whole hog, and large numbers of similarly gifted squads filled with similarly precocious, talented players have fallen away at the final hurdle - failed.

Saying that the past can't teach us much is only true if the past has no parallels to draw upon when analyzing the present. Our history is littered with parallels in terms of gifted squads falling at the big hurdles, across multiple. very different eras. So, to continue playing Devil's advocate, what makes this team unique when compared with those teams?

 

[JerusalemMan]

Why? To push the question, we have had similarly great teams before fall at the final hurdle - in fact, they fell far, far more than they went all the way. Only two teams in our entire history have gone the whole hog, and large numbers of similarly gifted squads filled with similarly precocious, talented players have fallen away at the final hurdle - failed.

Saying that the past can't teach us much is only true if the past has no parallels to draw upon when analyzing the present. Our history is littered with parallels in terms of gifted squads falling at the big hurdles, across multiple. very different eras. So, to continue playing Devil's advocate, what makes this team unique when compared with those teams?

They simply don't bear comparison.
It's a fair pub discussion comparing teams of different eras but the varying factors both around the club and within the league are just so massive that comparing is a thankless exercise.
You just have to assess what we have on its own merits.

 

[DubaiSpur]

How about where we are four points behind?

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourcei...spv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=premier+league+table+2015-16

Were we? News to me.

but that is what you are saying @DubaiSpur - think about it, you don't seem to be counting the crunch games which we have won (and if you're counting Gent then im sure as hell counting Sheffield United and Moscow - if not every other knockout game we have won) so it only stands to reason that the only thing which would remedy this issue of yours would be winning a trophy - as in a situation where we didn't lose a 'crunch game'

Hmm. You know what, you might be right, that is essentially what I'm suggesting. It's a difficult situation because you absolutely can't blame tPoch for trying his hardest to get to the situation where we have a chance to win trophies in the first place - but, ultimately, the only thing that would solve the impasse would be actually winning something, yeah.

an FA Cup win would be great, dont get me wrong but its a means to an end - its doesn't signify potential more so than consistent year on year improvements in the league

I partially agree, if only because of the mathematical certainty that comes with knowing that constant improvements in terms of points gained will win you a title sooner or later. But that never-ending, constant improvement is, I'm sure you will allow, unlikely - and, when a wobble comes, what will we look back on to signify our time spent challenging or finishing 2nd all the time? Without a cup, we will have literally done nothing of note, and would still be no closer to knowing how to win than we were before we embarked on that run, imo.

 

[DubaiSpur]

They simply don't bear comparison.
It's a fair pub discussion comparing teams of different eras but the varying factors both around the club and within the league are just so massive that comparing is a thankless exercise.
You just have to assess what we have on its own merits.

Sure, I can readily admit that. The eras are of course radically different, as are the circumstances the club finds itself in within any given era/decade. But there is a consistency to the sparsity of our title wins that speaks of a unifying thread across what will be six full decades in 2021 - the inability to jump the final hurdle. Surely you'll allow that there have to be some common factors that can be drawn from a timespan that large? Even allowing for era-specific differences, the team that choked in 2012 and the team of today aren't all that different - indeed, that team may have been more talented on an individual level than this one is. And yet, that team choked like all the others we've had since 1961.

 

[billyiddo]

Hmm. You know what, you might be right, that is essentially what I'm suggesting. It's a difficult situation because you absolutely can't blame tPoch for trying his hardest to get to the situation where we have a chance to win trophies in the first place - but, ultimately, the only thing that would solve the impasse would be actually winning something, yeah.



I partially agree, if only because of the mathematical certainty that comes with knowing that constant improvements in terms of points gained will win you a title sooner or later. But that never-ending, constant improvement is, I'm sure you will allow, unlikely - and, when a wobble comes, what will we look back on to signify our time spent challenging or finishing 2nd all the time? Without a cup, we will have literally done nothing of note, and would still be no closer to knowing how to win than we were before we embarked on that run, imo.

i want trophies too mate but the discussion at hand was whether the players would stick around if we won the cup but weren't looking like challenging in the league - for which, in mind there is only one answer...

 

[DubaiSpur]

i want trophies too mate but the discussion at hand was whether the players would stick around if we won the cup but weren't looking like challenging in the league - for which, in mind there is only one answer...

Eh? I thought it was about whether Poch was a 'winner' or not? Regarding the players, as I said to @milo on the FA Cup thread, if they end up never winning anything, there's no reason to have them around, is there? Apart from the homegrown lads, of course. Save the money, spend it on helping the homeless in London or uplifting Haringey or something like that and make a real, substantive change to the world, because finishing 2nd ten years in a row won't change a single thing about how we're perceived, what we are or how dusty our trophy cabinet is.