Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[billyiddo]

Your forgetting, Jose is not going to be measured by "nearly" Levy didn't hire this guy and back him for "top 4 +entertainment"

- Jose is going to be measured by what he wins and what he achieves (and that's what's different to the last managers back to Ramos who are looked on fondly for the odd good run and top 4/6)

Since he's been here, including that brickshow of injuries and resultant crash in form last season, we have consistently been in top 3

- To me, we can do top 4 minimum which is the "best" everyone else in the last 12 years has been able to manage

What we need to do is convert one or more of the cups and be opportunistic with the league (I still think that's a little out of reach)

So yes, I don't agree that our football is unattractive in the way some people believe (Son, Kane, Ndombele, Gio, Reguilon play some breathtaking stuff at times), if your opinion is possession = attractiveness, ok .. but .. the measurement for Jose is trophies .. nothing else ..

I think it's unfair to characterise the opinion as possession = attractiveness, it's about setup and intent. We weren't interested in doing anything other than defending our final third v Arsenal in the second half and it was a chore of a game to watch and whilst it's great that we can shut teams out like that, it's not something i want to watch on the regular.

I can see why we set up the way we did v City and Chelsea and am fully supportive of us taking the same approach v Liverpool - but it's not needed v the likes of Arsenal and i think the balance was wrong in the run of games post West Ham where we played 3 ordinary teams and celebrated because we managed to shut them out.

I just want us to find a better balance between defense and attack - i thought that's where we were heading but we've regressed in that regard lately.

 

[Diamond Lights]

Because threads on here are fluid so can and often do veer from the subject - Poch discussion last page centers on Stephen saying he didn't have much love for him, as an example, rather than being borne out of any Mourinho v Poch discussion. This is a small board and threads aren't going to be micro managed.


With regards to :

I want fudging trophies, not a "played some free flowing attacking football" trophy at the end of the year.

That's a very ends justifying the means outlook for me - it means if we fall short of the title and/or European success it will be hard to justify the football. Also i think there's a bit of revisionism creeping in lately on this point where the last era is ever increasing being referred to as weak/soft and free flowing attacking football, when it was a lot more balanced than that and had a strong defensive work ethic that was a huge part of it's identity. What is being described lately us something more akin to Jol or Redknapp sides.

I agree it tinkles me off people downplay Poch and his significance. I've said 1000x had he been backed to the extent Jose has (and let's be clear here, he wasn't) it could have been very different. My boner for Poch knows no bounds.

I get your point on the ends justifies the means and that ends may not be a trophy, but last year we were 14th and in Wafer Cup, at the very least now we look capable of getting back into the CL which after Chelsea's spree, Arsenal making big signings and still needing to contend with United, City, Liverpool, that in itself would be a huge achievement.

My passive aggressive point overall though, is I still see too much negativity accepting Jose. People need to move on from that. He is our manager, he's not Tim Sherwood, and he's currently making us perform. He should be afforded songs and support in respect of that.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think it's unfair to characterise the opinion as possession = attractiveness, it's about setup and intent. We weren't interested in doing anything other than defending our final third v Arsenal in the second half and it was a chore of a game to watch and whilst it's great that we can shut teams out like that, it's not something i want to watch on the regular.

I can see why we set up the way we did v City and Chelsea and am fully supportive of us taking the same approach v Liverpool - but it's not needed v the likes of Arsenal and i think the balance was wrong in the run of games post West Ham where we played 3 ordinary teams and celebrated because we managed to shut them out.

I just want us to find a better balance between defense and attack - i thought that's where we were heading but we've regressed in that regard lately.

I agree to an extent with you. I didn't enjoy the second half yesterday and I didn't enjoy it against Chelsea without ever feeling that either team would score against us.

But this is what we've bought with Mourinho. It's how he does things. How often have we said "that was f**king naive, we should have just shut up shop and closed the game out". That's what Jose does. It's not a great watch when we've gotten our goals and aren't even trying to score. It feels like a waste of Kane, Son, Lo Celso and the other attacking players that we have. But if we continue to win, I'm more than happy.

 

[harr1984]

Worse in terms of entertainment value is what is being argued. If we win major trophies the style of play can be overlooked, less so if it doesn't bring with it silverware.

Depends how you look at the definition of entertainment. Free flowing attacking football isn’t the only way to enjoy watching your team. I am enjoying watching my side for once be properly organised defensively and not soiling myself every time the opposition steps into our half. I’m also enjoying how tactically aware we are, and how we pick and choose when to break on teams and the speed at which we do it. And even if I wasn’t entertained, I have always found myself to be far happier after a game we have won ugly or without playing well, than playing some good football and losing (which I appreciate relates to latter part of your post). Id pick effective football over pretty football every time, and we are getting pretty good at it....

 

[billyiddo]

No ones calling for free flowing attacking football

 

[harr1984]

I agree to an extent with you. I didn't enjoy the second half yesterday and I didn't enjoy it against Chelsea without ever feeling that either team would score against us.

But this is what we've bought with Mourinho. It's how he does things. How often have we said "that was f**king naive, we should have just shut up shop and closed the game out". That's what Jose does. It's not a great watch when we've gotten our goals and aren't even trying to score. It feels like a waste of Kane, Son, Lo Celso and the other attacking players that we have. But if we continue to win, I'm more than happy.

How is it a waste of Kane and Son? Surely this just supports that Mourinhos effective football supersedes ‘pretty’ football. Kane is an even more all round player now with massive number of assists to add to his standard goal tally, whilst Son is in the scoring run of his life. I’m not sure where the waste is, maybe they had the all more frequently but doesnt seem like they were more productive with it....

 

[billyiddo]

My passive aggressive point overall though, is I still see too much negativity accepting Jose. People need to move on from that. He is our manager, he's not Tim Sherwood, and he's currently making us perform. He should be afforded songs and support in respect of that.

Jose is our manager, correct, he's here and accepted - which means he is going to be discussed, the negatives as well as the positives...

Personally knowing the crowd as i think i do i don't expect to hear his name being sung until a time where it feels like a connection has been made between him and the fans. Which feels some way off atm

 

[elltrev]

Because threads on here are fluid so can and often do veer from the subject - Poch discussion last page centers on Stephen saying he didn't have much love for him, as an example, rather than being borne out of any Mourinho v Poch discussion. This is a small board and threads aren't going to be micro managed.


With regards to :

I want fudging trophies, not a "played some free flowing attacking football" trophy at the end of the year.

That's a very ends justifying the means outlook for me - it means if we fall short of the title and/or European success it will be hard to justify the football. Also i think there's a bit of revisionism creeping in lately on this point where the last era is ever increasing being referred to as weak/soft and free flowing attacking football, when it was a lot more balanced than that and had a strong defensive work ethic that was a huge part of it's identity. What is being described lately us something more akin to Jol or Redknapp sides.

I totally agree. Unfortunately I think recency bias is human nature, though some are more susceptible to it than others!

Indeed, in 16/17 we had the best defensive record in the league - 26 goals conceded. We're currently on track for 31 goals conceded - a fantastic achievement, but not quite as good as Poch's best season.

 

[DeanoAustin]

How is it a waste of Kane and Son? Surely this just supports that Mourinhos effective football supersedes ‘pretty’ football. Kane is an even more all round player now with massive number of assists to add to his standard goal tally, whilst Son is in the scoring run of his life. I’m not sure where the waste is, maybe they had the all more frequently but doesnt seem like they were more productive with it....

When you’ve got the two best strikers in the league, or two of the best, and a proper player like Lo Celso and they aren’t having a shot between them for 45 mins because we can’t get the ball to them and they’re using all their energy defending, it feels like we’re not utilising their talents.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand the plan, I’m behind it as long as we’re winning or getting results but it feels counter intuitive.

 

[SteveAWOL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1335988080260624385

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

No but winning games can be achieved without pretty football

 

[MKSpur]

When you’ve got the two best strikers in the league, or two of the best, and a proper player like Lo Celso and they aren’t having a shot between them for 45 mins because we can’t get the ball to them and they’re using all their energy defending, it feels like we’re not utilising their talents.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand the plan, I’m behind it as long as we’re winning or getting results but it feels counter intuitive.

The only break we had unfortunately ended up with Sissoko playing the final ball. On another day perhaps that creates a third goal?
I guess it comes down to percentages, with a two goal buffer there really is no reason for us to expose ourselves to risk conceding just to add another goal. The players themselves play with a different sense of purpose depending on the situation too and I’m hoping that performances liek the last 3 prem games give a sense that in a one off game where there may be a trophy at the end of it we’d have a really good chance of getting the result, even against teams with greater resources.

In terms of what’s palatable, I think the key will be in the games we expect to win / dominate as a safety first attitude will not go down well with fans if a goal isn’t forthcoming. That said I’d take a couple of poorer results against weaker teams to beat the bigger big / rival ones.

I also think that if we continue on this trajectory and we continue to strengthen perhaps we’ll upgrade to have a couple more players who can combine the defensive work with more creative output to help us keep the ball / score more. So Sissoko and whoever is playing RWF are in for their off the ball work really, Lo Celso and Ndombele I also feel have a higher ceiling to come as they get fitter / more exposed to the league.

I do agree that results and ultimately success are key and if the brand of football isn’t liked by the fans it can accelerate a managers demise when the results are not coming. I think Pulis at Stoke was one where regardless of the relative success they wanted to go in a different direction but usually results are the overriding factor?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

When you’ve got the two best strikers in the league, or two of the best, and a proper player like Lo Celso and they aren’t having a shot between them for 45 mins because we can’t get the ball to them and they’re using all their energy defending, it feels like we’re not utilising their talents.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand the plan, I’m behind it as long as we’re winning or getting results but it feels counter intuitive.

I think your getting can’t mixed up with don’t need to
Jose himself said we didn’t need to do anymore to get the win
We can be very selective now as a team as to how we play and what we do in a game
Jose himself even commented afterwards on what he could have done differently if he needed to, but he didn’t need to do why bother
It takes two to tango, and you need the opposition to show something too
People think Chelsea had a go at us but city did much, much more, yet the Chelsea game is the one that people perceive as the hardest.

 

[Raziel]

When you’ve got the two best strikers in the league, or two of the best, and a proper player like Lo Celso and they aren’t having a shot between them for 45 mins because we can’t get the ball to them and they’re using all their energy defending, it feels like we’re not utilising their talents.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand the plan, I’m behind it as long as we’re winning or getting results but it feels counter intuitive.

- We are 2-0 up, the opposition looks like they could play for another 900 minutes and not score

Why is it important that we get the ball to the Gio, Kane and Son? outside of entertainment?

Jose plays the odds, better than anyone in history ever has, but it's just a little more complicated than that.

- We expected to have Ndombele to cycle in for Gio, he would have made a difference against the Scum in 2nd half and in my opinion is probably the difference between the 2-0 and us winning that by 3 or 4.
- We respond to the opposition, Jose will use subs if we need to (typically fitness) or based on game situation

As @Bedfordspurs said, we didn't need to, and that honestly says way more about us that going gung ho for another goal will ever say (it's an outright insult to the Scum)

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think your getting can’t mixed up with don’t need to
Jose himself said we didn’t need to do anymore to get the win
We can be very selective now as a team as to how we play and what we do in a game
Jose himself even commented afterwards on what he could have done differently if he needed to, but he didn’t need to do why bother
It takes two to tango, and you need the opposition to show something too
People think Chelsea had a go at us but city did much, much more, yet the Chelsea game is the one that people perceive as the hardest.

- We are 2-0 up, the opposition looks like they could play for another 900 minutes and not score

Why is it important that we get the ball to the Gio, Kane and Son? outside of entertainment?

Jose plays the odds, better than anyone in history ever has, but it's just a little more complicated than that.

- We expected to have Ndombele to cycle in for Gio, he would have made a difference against the Scum in 2nd half and in my opinion is probably the difference between the 2-0 and us winning that by 3 or 4.
- We respond to the opposition, Jose will use subs if we need to (typically fitness) or based on game situation

As @Bedfordspurs said, we didn't need to, and that honestly says way more about us that going gung ho for another goal will ever say (it's an outright insult to the Scum)

I get the point gents, I really do and I'm all for it as long as we are getting the results which Jose knows how to do better than anyone. It just feels strange when you've grown up with Venables' team, Ossie's famous 5, Harry's swashbuckling side and Poch's team swarming the opposition at every opportunity to say "2-0. We're shutting up shop and we won't try to score unless you do and we all know you're not going to."

But then, I remember us losing 4-3 to 10 man Emirates Marketing Project, 5-3 to United and 5-2 to Woolwich under those managers when we lead to nil. Those things won't happen under Mourinho. We look like a tough, well drilled team which is also something we aren't used to (although Poch's team were for long periods but not to this extent).

Jose is changing a footballing culture at our club and it takes getting used to. But he also looks like he's changing a losing culture and as long as he does that, I'm happy even if he plays Harry and Son as centre backs.

 

[StephenH]

I can't cope with all this Spurs positivity.
I'm going to watch my Champions League final mkv.

 

[parklane1]

Depends how you look at the definition of entertainment. Free flowing attacking football isn’t the only way to enjoy watching your team. I am enjoying watching my side for once be properly organised defensively and not soiling myself every time the opposition steps into our half. I’m also enjoying how tactically aware we are, and how we pick and choose when to break on teams and the speed at which we do it. And even if I wasn’t entertained, I have always found myself to be far happier after a game we have won ugly or without playing well, than playing some good football and losing (which I appreciate relates to latter part of your post). Id pick effective football over pretty football every time, and we are getting pretty good at it....

Good post and one that sums it up for me, we now look like a well organised team which does not seem to have many weak spots and its good to see. Its a long time since i have seen a Spurs team so in charge of what they do and how they do it.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I can't cope with all this Spurs positivity.
I'm going to watch my Champions League final mkv.

If that doesn't dampen the optimism, stick on the Brighton game from last season or the Leipzig away game. That'll have you back to normal.

 

[StephenH]

If that doesn't dampen the optimism, stick on the Brighton game from last season or the Leipzig away game. That'll have you back to normal.

one of my personnel in-favourites, Spurs vs Man U 2001, Was sitting just to the right of goal where all goals were scored.
I believe Glenn got the tin tack that day

 

[StephenH]

Jose is our manager, correct, he's here and accepted - which means he is going to be discussed, the negatives as well as the positives...

Personally knowing the crowd as i think i do i don't expect to hear his name being sung until a time where it feels like a connection has been made between him and the fans. Which feels some way off atm

he's just not as cuddly like Mauricio. but who is!