Jake Livermore

[milo]

I just wish the ones who slated him and wrote him off as a league 1 player back in septemer would come forward and hold their hands up.

Well done Jake. Onwards and upwards

Hand up. I thought he was a bit short of quality in the autumn Europa Cup games. I was wrong, he's really grown as this season has gone on and is easily good enough to be a squad player for us and could develop to be more than that.

 

[punk_is_back`]

The smell of utter B/S is thick in the air after that statement. I only hope that you will not be too haunted by how pretentious that was.

When this debate came up earlier in the season, Livermore had done nothing to suggest any kind of performances of any significance were in him. I for one hadn't seen anything to suggest a great future, and will happily admit that he has turned out to be (a lot) better than I expected. Lets not get carried away though, he is better than we expected, but he wont be on the teamsheet when all of the clubs players are fit so I wouldn't get too carried away.
He is a fit and unflappable lad who plays some neat football, but he's not inspirational, or dynamic by any standards. I think the biggest compliment is that he has proved that there is no need to panic when we see him picked to play, just a simple acceptance that we are not going to see any match turning heroics from him. I would be the first in line to hoist the "Yay Jake" flag if he ever does though.

Livermore's calmness on the ball and his positive pasing matched with his ever improving defensive work is a trait that is very rare to find. A lot of players, especially english DMs or CBS look to play the ball too quickly either in the tackle or on the pass. They cannot see the bigger picture and would rather pass backwards to the CBs of FBs than turn around and face the game and look to contribute in a positive manner.

Livermore allows us to get the ball forward more, he can link the defence to the attacking midfielders as rafa links the Midfield to the forwards; you need players to do this quickly and efficiently to contribute to rapid succesful passing. Modric doesn't need to drop deeper as livermore has the balls and ability to get the ball off the CBs and play it forward to reach him. This allows modric to create further upfield where the opposition midfield is using a man extra to close him down, and less men marking his passing options. If he recieves the ball deep of a player less able to pass forward he plays in front of the opposition midfield and this allows the opposition to have more men available to cut out the passing options thereby making our play slower. Livermore plays the true watercarrier role of recycling the ball very quickly and very efficiently

Livermore also stands up players very well; his decision making of when to dive in and when to cut out the avenue's for a player. Diving in may look effective, but if you miss the ball you've either conceded a foul and a yellow or left yourself on your arse on the floor for the attacker to have a clear run at the defence you're protecting.

It is also worth noting that Livermore and Sandro played more as double pivotes, which may have contributed a lot to their performances; one would harry the other would close out the passing option; this is a simple yet effective way to play if you have 2 players with good decision making and decent athleticism. This is a good way of playing if you have two or three mobile Ams in front of you who can all create very well. Having those two boys behind any 3 of modric, bale, lennon, rafa or GHod Forbid someone like Hazard would make us very balanced in midfield.

The Parker Modric axis doesn't seem like it works well; it only worked very well against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and norwich who's CMs were not on our level at all when we played them. I don't believe that tactically Parker and modric are on the same wavelength; Parker may do better with someone like Hudd holding position and spraying passess. Parker likes to run around a lot and we lose our shape easily when we lose possession especially when Modric loves to move around to find space too. Given the fact that they both aren't the most athletic/quickest of our players we have a lot of teams that play athletes in CM or are naturally quicker than us which makes us easy to catch on the break. Both players have high work rate but lets not confuse this with actual stamina, Parker seems knackered by the 75th minute and modric seems to lack a bit of huff and puff in the second half. This isn't also helped when Redknapp players 4-4-2 against teams with 3 in CM. Rosicky easily outpaced our players and he isn't known as one of the quickest. We need a bit of athleticism in the Centre or we are too open and this is where playing either one of Livermore or Sandro in a 3 comes in handy. It also helps that not only are they athletic, they are both good at defending, composed in possession, can start link us to the attackers with good,neat if unspectacular passing. It might look all good playing 1-2s with the CBs to "retain possession" and "keep us moving"; its another thing outwitting a tactically strong CM of Paul Scholes and Carrick with some neat passing. Sandro and Livermore for me have done enough to retain their place for the next PL Game. I shall hold my hand up if it is a failure.

 

[DHSF]

In another thread I said that I thought he was actually an elegant type player. A bit of Thudd, Carrick quality about him - maybe without the range of passing or vision of the aforementioned. He has definitely impressed me tho. I dont think he will be good enough for the first team on a regular basis but he is our Fletcher.

(Linnet may come on here pretending "thats what I said" dont listen to him.

 

[mick cooper]

Livermore's calmness on the ball and his positive pasing matched with his ever improving defensive work is a trait that is very rare to find. A lot of players, especially english DMs or CBS look to play the ball too quickly either in the tackle or on the pass. They cannot see the bigger picture and would rather pass backwards to the CBs of FBs than turn around and face the game and look to contribute in a positive manner.

Livermore allows us to get the ball forward more, he can link the defence to the attacking midfielders as rafa links the Midfield to the forwards; you need players to do this quickly and efficiently to contribute to rapid succesful passing. Modric doesn't need to drop deeper as livermore has the balls and ability to get the ball off the CBs and play it forward to reach him. This allows modric to create further upfield where the opposition midfield is using a man extra to close him down, and less men marking his passing options. If he recieves the ball deep of a player less able to pass forward he plays in front of the opposition midfield and this allows the opposition to have more men available to cut out the passing options thereby making our play slower. Livermore plays the true watercarrier role of recycling the ball very quickly and very efficiently

Livermore also stands up players very well; his decision making of when to dive in and when to cut out the avenue's for a player. Diving in may look effective, but if you miss the ball you've either conceded a foul and a yellow or left yourself on your arse on the floor for the attacker to have a clear run at the defence you're protecting.

It is also worth noting that Livermore and Sandro played more as double pivotes, which may have contributed a lot to their performances; one would harry the other would close out the passing option; this is a simple yet effective way to play if you have 2 players with good decision making and decent athleticism. This is a good way of playing if you have two or three mobile Ams in front of you who can all create very well. Having those two boys behind any 3 of modric, bale, lennon, rafa or GHod Forbid someone like Hazard would make us very balanced in midfield.

The Parker Modric axis doesn't seem like it works well; it only worked very well against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and norwich who's CMs were not on our level at all when we played them. I don't believe that tactically Parker and modric are on the same wavelength; Parker may do better with someone like Hudd holding position and spraying passess. Parker likes to run around a lot and we lose our shape easily when we lose possession especially when Modric loves to move around to find space too. Given the fact that they both aren't the most athletic/quickest of our players we have a lot of teams that play athletes in CM or are naturally quicker than us which makes us easy to catch on the break. Both players have high work rate but lets not confuse this with actual stamina, Parker seems knackered by the 75th minute and modric seems to lack a bit of huff and puff in the second half. This isn't also helped when Redknapp players 4-4-2 against teams with 3 in CM. Rosicky easily outpaced our players and he isn't known as one of the quickest. We need a bit of athleticism in the Centre or we are too open and this is where playing either one of Livermore or Sandro in a 3 comes in handy. It also helps that not only are they athletic, they are both good at defending, composed in possession, can start link us to the attackers with good,neat if unspectacular passing. It might look all good playing 1-2s with the CBs to "retain possession" and "keep us moving"; its another thing outwitting a tactically strong CM of Paul Scholes and Carrick with some neat passing. Sandro and Livermore for me have done enough to retain their place for the next PL Game. I shall hold my hand up if it is a failure.

why didn't you say that the first time...........

It wont work (IMV) by the way, as Sandro and Livermore don't have anything in the way of genuine creativity in them

 

[milo]

The Parker Modric axis doesn't seem like it works well; it only worked very well against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and norwich who's CMs were not on our level at all when we played them. I don't believe that tactically Parker and modric are on the same wavelength; Parker may do better with someone like Hudd holding position and spraying passess. Parker likes to run around a lot and we lose our shape easily when we lose possession especially when Modric loves to move around to find space too.

I couldn't disagree more, after the addition of Adebayor, the Modric Parker midfield partnership is the main reason that we are third in the league. They suffered against Arsenal because they were out numbered and they both picked up bookings with five minutes of each other. Parker's positioning when played alongside Modric is generally very good. They have clearly defined roles, know what they are doing and do it very, very well.

 

[punk_is_back`]

why didn't you say that the first time...........

It wont work (IMV) by the way, as Sandro and Livermore don't have anything in the way of genuine creativity in them

Thats why we have the 3 AMs in front of them, that is definitely within their range of passing.

 

[braineclipse]

Thats why we have the 3 AMs in front of them, that is definitely within their range of passing.

Most successful teams that play 4-2-3-1 or other variants with two holding players have one good creative passer as one of their holding players. Gattusso and Pirlo for Milan and Italy is the classic I suppose. The current Real setup with Alonso and Khedira another. Alonso and Mascherano for Liverpool a couple of years back. It's the main reason De Jong has been dropped frequently for City, even though Barry isn't exactly Pirlo or Alonso he does give them more expansive passing. And you do need that, even with creative players ahead of them. Especially if you don't have a real target man and don't want to get forced into playing long balls easily.

I actually struggle to think of any really good side that has played two deep players without one of them being a proper ball playing footballer.

 

[mick cooper]

Thats why we have the 3 AMs in front of them, that is definitely within their range of passing.

Its worth a shout, but Harry won't drop Parker, so your boy is still on the bench if we go 4231

 

[mick cooper]

Most successful teams that play 4-2-3-1 or other variants with two holding players have one good creative passer as one of their holding players. Gattusso and Pirlo for Milan and Italy is the classic I suppose. The current Real setup with Alonso and Khedira another. Alonso and Mascherano for Liverpool a couple of years back. It's the main reason De Jong has been dropped frequently for City, even though Barry isn't exactly Pirlo or Alonso he does give them more expansive passing. And you do need that, even with creative players ahead of them. Especially if you don't have a real target man and don't want to get forced into playing long balls easily.

I actually struggle to think of any really good side that has played two deep players without one of them being a proper ball playing footballer.

with Bale and Lennon wide and Modric in front of them as PIB suggests I would say there is enough creativity to make up for the lack with 2 DMs, and Lennon is more than happy to drop back for the ball (and tackle back)

maybe you can't think of a successful line up because they dont have Bale Lennon and Modric

 

[nw7 yid]

Hand up. I thought he was a bit short of quality in the autumn Europa Cup games. I was wrong, he's really grown as this season has gone on and is easily good enough to be a squad player for us and could develop to be more than that.

Same here.

I still think he has his limitations, but he can clearly cope at the highest level and is worthy of a place in our squad.

 

[braineclipse]

with Bale and Lennon wide and Modric in front of them as PIB suggests I would say there is enough creativity to make up for the lack with 2 DMs, and Lennon is more than happy to drop back for the ball (and tackle back)

maybe you can't think of a successful line up because they dont have Bale Lennon and Modric

In my opinion Bale and Lennon aren't really all that creative. Great at attacking space and Bale is a truly exceptional crosser of the ball, but both can be double marked out of games without really being a creative threat coming inside unless there is space to attack.

I also think Modric is kind of wasted in that attacking midfield, just behind a striker, role. He'll be alright there, but in my opinion not any better and possibly worse than for example VdV simply because VdV is a much better finisher. It's a position where shooting really becomes important, and that (along with aerial duels I suppose) is his one weakness. The deeper role, in my opinion, fits Modric a lot better and really utilizes his skills the best.

Could be that I just can't think of a team, or that by chance no team has tried a combo of two out and out defensive midfielders in a 4-2-3-1 with proper top class attacking midfielders. I'm not saying that it would be bad, just that in my opinion it wouldn't be as good as actually having a playmaker in there.

 

[braineclipse]

Now, this might put me in a severe minority. I would rather see Modric on the left of a wonky (initiate countdown to african's arrival to claim copyright) drifting inside and fairly deep to pick up the ball and joining the central midfielders early rather than as a supporting striker/attacking midfielder. Actually, in my opinion the only way a two man defensive midfielder combo can really work at a truly top level is if you have some wide playmaker drifting inside from one of the flanks. Not counting Napoli type, almost pure counter attacking systems. Sure it works, but it's not going to work for long if you want to be a real top team.

 

[punk_is_back`]

Now, this might put me in a severe minority. I would rather see Modric on the left of a wonky (initiate countdown to african's arrival to claim copyright) drifting inside and fairly deep to pick up the ball and joining the central midfielders early rather than as a supporting striker/attacking midfielder. Actually, in my opinion the only way a two man defensive midfielder combo can really work at a truly top level is if you have some wide playmaker drifting inside from one of the flanks. Not counting Napoli type, almost pure counter attacking systems. Sure it works, but it's not going to work for long if you want to be a real top team.

I agree a Hazard type playing on the opposite flank to be bale would improve us a lot. Modric is best suited for CM nowadays.

 

[ArcspacE]

Harry hails Livermore


Spurs chief impressed by starlet's rise to first team

Last Updated: March 6, 2012 3:47pm


The 22-year-old got his break in the first team after injuries to Sandro and Tom Huddlestone at the start of the season and has impressed in his 29 appearances.

Redknapp has been disappointed by the lack of Spurs academy players going on to become first team regulars and starring on the international stage.

Ledley King is the only player to do so in recent years, but Redknapp is sure that Livermore can follow in the Tottenham captain's footsteps.

"He (Livermore) could be (an England international)," the Spurs boss said.

"The sky is the limit for Jake. His attitude is so good. He wants to get to the top and when you have that type of attitude there is no reason why he can't do it.

"He has the ability as well so he has a good chance."

Previous Spurs managers had seemingly written Livermore off as a lost cause, and he was loaned to Derby, Peterborough, Ipswich and Leeds before breaking into the first team at White Hart Lane.

"When I came here people weren't sure that he was ever going to make it," Redknapp said.

"He had his injuries. Some people were tending to write him off, but when I came here but from day one I just found him to be a fantastic boy.

"He did ever so well the other day in there with Sandro against Manchester United. I was pleased with those two. They were so good."

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/12016/7574757/Harry-hails-Livermore

 

[ArcspacE]

Now, this might put me in a severe minority. I would rather see Modric on the left of a wonky (initiate countdown to african's arrival to claim copyright) drifting inside and fairly deep to pick up the ball and joining the central midfielders early rather than as a supporting striker/attacking midfielder. Actually, in my opinion the only way a two man defensive midfielder combo can really work at a truly top level is if you have some wide playmaker drifting inside from one of the flanks. Not counting Napoli type, almost pure counter attacking systems. Sure it works, but it's not going to work for long if you want to be a real top team.

Sorry, but to me this is arguably our weakest formation and quite rightly labelled so - the 'tossy'

Player of Modric' calibre is lost on the left and half is impact reduced to touchline 1-2s with BAE. He's our playmaker and the person dictating the tempo, rhythm and movement - hence best utlilised in the middle where he can cover the greatest area, etc. I've never seen Xavi play out wide. Or Alonso for that matter. Not that it matters much, just a general observation.

Modric' best performances of late have naturally come from a central position. There is no such thing as a wide playmaker and its a contradiction of terms, imv. I never want to see him there unless we're absolutely fcuked for injuries and there is not other way

 

[thfcsteff]

It was Livermore and Modric in the middle IIRC

...which i had wanted for utd, with Rose on the left in Bale's absence as it would've seen us playing players where they play BEST!!!!! I had wanted Livermore specifically for Utd after the deathstar travesty as I felt that being one of us, he would be hurting more than most to put it right...

 

[thfcsteff]

Sorry, but to me this is arguably our weakest formation and quite rightly labelled so - the 'tossy'

Player of Modric' calibre is lost on the left and half is impact reduced to touchline 1-2s with BAE. He's our playmaker and the person dictating the tempo, rhythm and movement - hence best utlilised in the middle where he can cover the greatest area, etc. I've never seen Xavi play out wide. Or Alonso for that matter. Not that it matters much, just a general observation.

Modric' best performances of late have naturally come from a central position. There is no such thing as a wide playmaker and its a contradiction of terms, imv. I never want to see him there unless we're absolutely fcuked for injuries and there is not other way

This.
Again, why did Danny Rose not get the start?

 

[thfcsteff]

I couldn't disagree more, after the addition of Adebayor, the Modric Parker midfield partnership is the main reason that we are third in the league. They suffered against Arsenal because they were out numbered and they both picked up bookings with five minutes of each other. Parker's positioning when played alongside Modric is generally very good. They have clearly defined roles, know what they are doing and do it very, very well.

They suffered against Arsenal because, simply put, we did not go 4-5-1. if Aaron lennon and VdV had started that game, we'd have won by 3 or 4...

 

[elltrev]

They suffered against Arsenal because, simply put, we did not go 4-5-1. if Aaron lennon and VdV had started that game, we'd have won by 3 or 4...

Against Arsenal we drew 2-2 when playing 4-4-2, and lost 3-0 playing 4-5-1. Sure there are reasons to believe that a 4-5-1 was the way to go from the beginning, but it's pretty ridiculous to state that we'd have won by 3 or 4 if we had done. The first goal was possible precisely because we were playing two out-and-out strikers.

And I would imagine that Rose didn't get the start against United because he's not a very good left midfielder. We completely dominated United, in part thanks to how well Livermore and Sandro played together in the middle.

 

[charlietheyid]

Livermore also seems to be a nice guy, and if he keeps working hard, he'll turn into a good player.