George Galloway/Israel/Palestine

[braineclipse]

Not really going to get In to this debate, the only thing that I would like to clarify, is the misconception that Muslims some how have some religious/cultural problem with jewish people (see scaras early posts). This is a complete fabrication, while the European continent amongst others were persecuting and killing those of a jewish faith for the 'best part' 2000 years. Muslim lands were welcoming the jewish refugees. From England France Russia and Germany but most notably Spain See specifically the Ottoman Empire. Even in the 20th century, when America was still non comital on the nazis, turkey was fabricating/exaggerating turkish heritage for many jewish citizens of Germany to ensure their safe passage to turkey. Don't take my word for it though read up on history.

As I found this comment very surprising, would you mind expanding a bit? Are you talking from an entirely historical viewpoint (before the establishment of Israel)? Or are you also talking about what has happened in more recent history?

No argument from me that a lot of European nations have a lot of blood on their hands historically in this issue. However, the current (and recent) threats against Israel and Jewish people seems to me to come from Islamic nations, and the threats seem real enough.

As the main example I was under the impression that the threats against Israel from surrounding nations were accepted as real. Do you disagree with this?

If those threats are real how can you argue that Muslims have no religious/cultural problem with Jewish people? (to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying all Muslims have a problem with Jewish people).

 

[Bonsaiboy]

By quite some distance, Christians have been the biggest persecutors of the Jews throughout the last 1000 years. Generally speaking, it was better to be a Jew in a Muslim land rather than a Christian one for all but the last 70 years of that time.

However, post World War 2, it's obviously been Muslims that have the biggest issues with Jews, but the hatred that exists is generated primarily about the perceived theft of the Palestinian's land, and the anti-Semitism stems from that rather than being innate anti-Semitism originating within the Islamic faith itself.

 

[DTA]

As I found this comment very surprising, would you mind expanding a bit? Are you talking from an entirely historical viewpoint (before the establishment of Israel)? Or are you also talking about what has happened in more recent history?

No argument from me that a lot of European nations have a lot of blood on their hands historically in this issue. However, the current (and recent) threats against Israel and Jewish people seems to me to come from Islamic nations, and the threats seem real enough.

As the main example I was under the impression that the threats against Israel from surrounding nations were accepted as real. Do you disagree with this?

If those threats are real how can you argue that Muslims have no religious/cultural problem with Jewish people? (to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying all Muslims have a problem with Jewish people).

Well yes I'm talking historically. But it's worth noting that Turkey was one of the first countries in the world to recognise Israel.

 

[braineclipse]

Well yes I'm talking historically. But it's worth noting that Turkey was one of the first countries in the world to recognise Israel.

Then I don't really understand what it is you're disagreeing with in this thread.

 

[DTA]

Then I don't really understand what it is you're disagreeing with in this thread.

Like i stated, scaras early comments suggested that there is some kind of religious or cultural inspired animosity towards people of a Jewish faith from Islam. This is patently a lie or at best mistruth. As i exemplfied by Muslims (particularly the ottomans- an empire that I know some of the history to) saving what would be in world numbers today millions of Jewish people from persecution and death in many other western and other countries. I don't know what you find hard to understand.

History is important and shouldn't be forgotten.

 

[Spursman]

Should read up on Jewish refugees of the middle east.

Some examples in 1948

Iran had 100,000 Jews 0 now
Iraq had 150,000 Jews 0 now
Syria had 30,00 Jews 0 now
Morocco 265,000 prob about 1-2000 now

Yes lots left by their own accord but plenty got thrown out/ escaped for simply being a Jew. My dad being one of them who fled from Libya who once had 38,000 Jews 0 now.

The expulsion of Jews from Arab lands was not just a backlash against the reestablishment of Israel, Contrary to prevailing myths, Jews & Arabs had not coexisted peacefully. The Jews were an oppressed minority during the 14 centuries of Arab rule.

 

[DTA]

Should read up on Jewish refugees of the middle east.

Some examples in 1948

Iran had 100,000 Jews 0 now
Iraq had 150,000 Jews 0 now
Syria had 30,00 Jews 0 now
Morocco 265,000 prob about 1-2000 now

Yes lots left by their own accord but plenty got thrown out/ escaped for simply being a Jew. My dad being one of them who fled from Libya who once had 38,000 Jews 0 now.

The expulsion of Jews from Arab lands was not just a backlash against the reestablishment of Israel, Contrary to prevailing myths, Jews & Arabs had not coexisted peacefully. The Jews were an oppressed minority during the 14 centuries of Arab rule.

All post 1948 mate, but I'm in no ways excusing what happened after, its deplorable and inexcusable.

Just a point on this though there was no 14 centuries of arb rule, no where close. And within the ottoman empire Jewish people were given exactly the same rights as any other non Muslim minority (through diversity strength- was one of the mottos of the ottoman empire). To be fair and accurate this did include an extra tax for all non Muslims including Jewish people, but this was at a time when no foreigners were let into the city of london for instance, forget about all the other horrific atrocities committed by the west and others on the Jewish community specifically. A huge number of whom (comparable to millions today) found refuge, freedom (of life, religion and opportunity) within the borders of the Ottoman empire.

Not saying the Ottomans were great or never done any wrong they patently did. Just making the point that there was and is no religious or cultural reason within Islam for Jews and Muslims not to live side by side, which they did do for centuries after receiving sanctuary from the deadly oppression they faced elsewhere.

Like I said don't take my word for it, look up the history.

 

[Baleforce]

isn't it sad that fairy stories have so much sway

tomorrow there will be 2 kids born at the same time, a kilometre apart, in hospitals with the same equipment, with staff trained in the same way, they will breathe the same air, look upon the same ocean, watch the same sun rise and moon glow, they will, to the sane eye, be obstensibly identical, yet they will be brainwashed into hating each other, passionately, until death

 

[DTA]

isn't it sad that fairy stories have so much sway

tomorrow there will be 2 kids born at the same time, a kilometre apart, in hospitals with the same equipment, with staff trained in the same way, they will breathe the same air, look upon the same ocean, watch the same sun rise and moon glow, they will, to the sane eye, be obstensibly identical, yet they will be brainwashed into hating each other, passionately, until death

What do you mean by fairy stories? If your talking about religion, then some of the examples I have given prove that this is not the case, although I conceed that religion maybe being used NOW to brainwash, and control.

 

[Baleforce]

What other difference do they have? The DNA is identical, what they are is the same, it's what they believe that's different.

 

[braineclipse]

Like i stated, scaras early comments suggested that there is some kind of religious or cultural inspired animosity towards people of a Jewish faith from Islam. This is patently a lie or at best mistruth. As i exemplfied by Muslims (particularly the ottomans- an empire that I know some of the history to) saving what would be in world numbers today millions of Jewish people from persecution and death in many other western and other countries. I don't know what you find hard to understand.

History is important and shouldn't be forgotten.

I might have missed it, but I didn't see any comments contrary to what you've stated. I haven't seen anyone claim that Muslims have always persecuted Jews or that all Arab states have been hostile to Jews throughout history.

Most of what Scara has been talking about from what I've seen has been from after the establishment of Israel.

History is important and shouldn't be forgotten, this is not a part of history I'm well versed in so I was willing to agree to every historical point you made without argument unless someone else contradicted you. I just don't see which parts of this thread you were claiming as inaccurate based on that pre-Israel history.

All post 1948 mate, but I'm in no ways excusing what happened after, its deplorable and inexcusable.

Just a point on this though there was no 14 centuries of arb rule, no where close. And within the ottoman empire Jewish people were given exactly the same rights as any other non Muslim minority (through diversity strength- was one of the mottos of the ottoman empire). To be fair and accurate this did include an extra tax for all non Muslims including Jewish people, but this was at a time when no foreigners were let into the city of london for instance, forget about all the other horrific atrocities committed by the west and others on the Jewish community specifically. A huge number of whom (comparable to millions today) found refuge, freedom (of life, religion and opportunity) within the borders of the Ottoman empire.

Not saying the Ottomans were great or never done any wrong they patently did. Just making the point that there was and is no religious or cultural reason within Islam for Jews and Muslims not to live side by side, which they did do for centuries after receiving sanctuary from the deadly oppression they faced elsewhere.

Like I said don't take my word for it, look up the history.

This does not follow.

Centuries of one people accepting some discrimination and being treated as less than the ruling class because there were no better options for this small minority doesn't prove that there was and is no religious or cultural reasons within Islam for Jews and Muslims not to live side by side.

A better example would be a modern, secular, "western" nation where these religious groups have the same rights and live in peaceful societies. But all that shows is that it's possible, even then it doesn't show that there are no religious or cultural reasons... It could just as easily be that those religious and cultural reasons are being mitigated by other factors.

What do you mean by fairy stories? If your talking about religion, then some of the examples I have given prove that this is not the case, although I conceed that religion maybe being used NOW to brainwash, and control.

Surely you're not arguing that religion hasn't been used historically to brainwash and control?

What some examples might prove is that this hate has not always been the case - or rather that it hasn't been present to an extent large enough to cause wars, uprisings, murders or violence. But that doesn't mean that it's not sometimes the case. Nor does it mean that it's not a source for hatred even in those examples where no violence was present.

 

[braineclipse]

All post 1948 mate, but I'm in no ways excusing what happened after, its deplorable and inexcusable.

Just a point on this though there was no 14 centuries of arb rule, no where close. And within the ottoman empire Jewish people were given exactly the same rights as any other non Muslim minority (through diversity strength- was one of the mottos of the ottoman empire). To be fair and accurate this did include an extra tax for all non Muslims including Jewish people, but this was at a time when no foreigners were let into the city of london for instance, forget about all the other horrific atrocities committed by the west and others on the Jewish community specifically. A huge number of whom (comparable to millions today) found refuge, freedom (of life, religion and opportunity) within the borders of the Ottoman empire.

Not saying the Ottomans were great or never done any wrong they patently did. Just making the point that there was and is no religious or cultural reason within Islam for Jews and Muslims not to live side by side, which they did do for centuries after receiving sanctuary from the deadly oppression they faced elsewhere.

Like I said don't take my word for it, look up the history.

As this is a rather large historical digression I decided to ask the historical questions in a separate post (my previous post essentially just assumes that you're right in every historical point you've made).

A quick google lead me to a wiki article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

From the summary part of the article:

The situation where Jews both enjoyed cultural and economical prosperity at times but were widely persecuted at other times was summarised by G.E. Von Grunebaum :

It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms."[1]

This seems to disagree with what you've posted so far. Do you think the wiki article is incorrect or am I misreading your earlier statements? (I'm not saying you're wrong here, I realize that wiki articles are not always correct and only use this as a first reading into a topic I know little of. However that quote seems like it's from a fairly reputable source.)

 

[DTA]

I might have missed it, but I didn't see any comments contrary to what you've stated. I haven't seen anyone claim that Muslims have always persecuted Jews or that all Arab states have been hostile to Jews throughout history.

Most of what Scara has been talking about from what I've seen has been from after the establishment of Israel.

History is important and shouldn't be forgotten, this is not a part of history I'm well versed in so I was willing to agree to every historical point you made without argument unless someone else contradicted you. I just don't see which parts of this thread you were claiming as inaccurate based on that pre-Israel history.



This does not follow.

Centuries of one people accepting some discrimination and being treated as less than the ruling class because there were no better options for this small minority doesn't prove that there was and is no religious or cultural reasons within Islam for Jews and Muslims not to live side by side.

A better example would be a modern, secular, "western" nation where these religious groups have the same rights and live in peaceful societies. But all that shows is that it's possible, even then it doesn't show that there are no religious or cultural reasons... It could just as easily be that those religious and cultural reasons are being mitigated by other factors.



Surely you're not arguing that religion hasn't been used historically to brainwash and control?

What some examples might prove is that this hate has not always been the case - or rather that it hasn't been present to an extent large enough to cause wars, uprisings, murders or violence. But that doesn't mean that it's not sometimes the case. Nor does it mean that it's not a source for hatred even in those examples where no violence was present.

I agree with pretty much all of that.

 

[DTA]

As this is a rather large historical digression I decided to ask the historical questions in a separate post (my previous post essentially just assumes that you're right in every historical point you've made).

A quick google lead me to a wiki article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

From the summary part of the article:



This seems to disagree with what you've posted so far. Do you think the wiki article is incorrect or am I misreading your earlier statements? (I'm not saying you're wrong here, I realize that wiki articles are not always correct and only use this as a first reading into a topic I know little of. However that quote seems like it's from a fairly reputable source.)

To be honest I'm no historian but I do know a bit about Ottoman history. For its time (and this is key here) it was an inclusive dynasty. Of course modern secular society is much better and more inclusive.

I would be interested to see his list pre world war one. As far as I know (and again I'm no historian, and very eager and willing to learn), the only time this would have be purhaps true would be in times of rebellion against the empire and should again be viewed in a historical context

 

[DTA]

What other difference do they have? The DNA is identical, what they are is the same, it's what they believe that's different.

It is the dominant discourse leading to hegonomy to frame this conflict around religion. But its simply not true.

 

[Baleforce]

OK, in your opinion what is it all about then?

Do you think that if it had been displaced Muslims given a settlement there the end result would be the same?

 

[Bonsaiboy]

OK, in your opinion what is it all about then?

Do you think that if it had been displaced Muslims given a settlement there the end result would be the same?

That fact they're Muslims and Jews is not the cause of the dispute. It's two different peoples who think the land belongs to them, as in Northern Ireland with Catholics and Protestants. It is not essentially a religious issue, but when it becomes a dispute, both sides tend to define themselves by whatever differentiates themselves from their enemy, and become ever more extreme in their views.

In the old days it was easier. One side would just completely annihilate the other or just push them into a reservation and there'd be no dispute, such as the European conquest of North America or Anglo-Saxon conquest of what became England. Wales is just one large reservation for displaced Britons.

 

[AuroRaman]

That fact they're Muslims and Jews is not the cause of the dispute. It's two different peoples who think the land belongs to them, as in Northern Ireland with Catholics and Protestants. It is not essentially a religious issue, but when it becomes a dispute, both sides tend to define themselves by whatever differentiates themselves from their enemy, and become ever more extreme in their views.

Beat me to it.

 

[braineclipse]

To be honest I'm no historian but I do know a bit about Ottoman history. For its time (and this is key here) it was an inclusive dynasty. Of course modern secular society is much better and more inclusive.

I would be interested to see his list pre world war one. As far as I know (and again I'm no historian, and very eager and willing to learn), the only time this would have be purhaps true would be in times of rebellion against the empire and should again be viewed in a historical context

In the wiki article, if you scroll down to the parts about the 17th and 18th century there are some examples, all of course pre-WW1.

Another quote (from the article this time, not from that historian) seems to sum it up pretty well: "The status of Jewry in the Ottoman Empire often hinged on the whims of the Sultan. So, for example, while Murad III ordered that the attitude of all non-Muslims should be one of "humility and abjection" and should not "live near Mosques or tall buildings" or own slaves, others were more tolerant.[2]" I think this is the case for most empires (at least those that last a while).

That fact they're Muslims and Jews is not the cause of the dispute. It's two different peoples who think the land belongs to them, as in Northern Ireland with Catholics and Protestants. It is not essentially a religious issue, but when it becomes a dispute, both sides tend to define themselves by whatever differentiates themselves from their enemy, and become ever more extreme in their views.

In the old days it was easier. One side would just completely annihilate the other or just push them into a reservation and there'd be no dispute, such as the European conquest of North America or Anglo-Saxon conquest of what became England. Wales is just one large reservation for displaced Britons.

Why do they think the land belongs to them? Why was Israel placed where it was?

Is it not a fairly central belief in Judaism that the holy land was given to them by GHod? Has this not been at least one of the causes for breakdown in peace talks and two-state solution talks? Is this not a belief that at the very least influences the expansionism shown by Israel? An expansionism that is a big part of why this situation seems so locked (at least imo).

It's obviously an oversimplification to blame all conflicts between various religious groups exclusively on religion. But can it possible be right to say that religion is not even one of several causes in this of all cases?

And even in cases where the religious influence is not as clear cut as it is here, even when it might be only "a tool" for those wishing for more power and control it's still at least somewhat to blame as it's a very useful and effective tool. The evolution of just about any conflict can always be said to be more complex, but when the religious aspect of a conflict evolves as a part of that conflict I don't think you can separate that from the dispute itself, at least not entirely. The religious part of the conflict evolves as a part of the conflict, often intensifying it, often developing into a crucial part of the dispute, often fueling the fire and causing atrocities that makes disputes worse. To quote Christopher Hitchens (a man who absolutely destroyed Galloway in a debate imo). "The suicide-bombing community is not absolutely 100 percent religious, but it is pretty nearly 100 percent religious." If this was the only thing religion had contributed in this conflict it would be enough to considered one of many causes behind the seemingly Gordian nature of the situation, it's far from the only thing though.

 

[Baleforce]

That fact they're Muslims and Jews is not the cause of the dispute. It's two different peoples who think the land belongs to them, as in Northern Ireland with Catholics and Protestants. It is not essentially a religious issue, but when it becomes a dispute, both sides tend to define themselves by whatever differentiates themselves from their enemy, and become ever more extreme in their views.

In the old days it was easier. One side would just completely annihilate the other or just push them into a reservation and there'd be no dispute, such as the European conquest of North America or Anglo-Saxon conquest of what became England. Wales is just one large reservation for displaced Britons.

But why do they think the land belongs to them?